Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:20 am

Since Keane seems to be flavour of the month I thought I'd point out that a few on here are just a little bit selective with who they want to do well. Yes Keane did cost £20m, Voronin cost nothing. But even on a straight comparison of scoring records Voronin did as much as Keane has and yet noone backed Voronin "until he came good" or insist that he start the next game any time he scored a goal.

Voronin (Liverpool)

6 goals in 28 appearances (0.214 goals/app)
First 10 games : 4 goals in 10 appearances (0.400 goals/app)
Last 5 games : 2 goals in 5 appearances (0.400 goals/app)

Keane (Liverpool)

2 goals in 14 appearances (0.143 goals/app)
1st 10 games : 0 goals in 10 appearances (0.000 goals/app)
Last 5 games : 2 goals in 5 appearances (0.400 goals/app)

So Voronin made a better start, both have scored twice in their last five competitive games for Liverpool and yet people couldn't wait to get shot of Voronin yet Keane can do no wrong - despite not having an injury to contend with, which lead to Voronin playing just 28 minutes in 20 games and still he managed to score a goal!

So the point is that Keane gets huge support, to some is "undroppable" and yet Voronin got none of that. Few defended him, most criticise at and and every opportunity. Did we change our system to accommodate Voronin? No. Did we to accommodate Keane? Yes. Keane may well come good, but only because he cost £20m and that gets him EVERY opportunity going.

Crouch may not have been my favourite player, largely because the way we played was awful at times with him in the side and because he wasn't good enough to be a Liverpool player. He also got this "play him until he comes good" preferential treatement, that is until he fell out of favour and Rafa realised he wasn't good enough for LFC. Keane is a better striker than Crouch, but people are wrong if they think that because I express CONCERN that he is getting in the team whether on merit or not, and originally because I didn't want to pay £20m for a 28 year old who is a good but not great striker, that I 'hate Keane'. I wish he would do better, but I'm not prepared to include him in the team EVERY game simply to try and get some return for the investment.

Who is to say playing Keane is the best thing even for Keane himself? He can run himself into the ground trying, and do his confidence no good with the pressure of getting every opportunity. I still say we should perhaps have kept Voronin as a back up, at the moment we're looking thin on strikers and Rafa doesn't seem prepared to try the kids. After his 4 goals in 10 appearances at the start of his Liverpool career, Voronin went ELEVEN games without scoring (before anyone jumps on that, Keane started with TEN without scoring) Maybe it indicates that not persisting with a striker is wrong, maybe it doesn't mean anything at all.

Voronin's in and out time at Liverpool

8 starts/13 appearances in 16 games : 4 goals
Most games in a row missed : 1 (3 times)

7 starts/8 appearances in 17 games : 0 goals
Most games in a row missed : 2 (3 times)

3 starts/7 appearances in 10 games : 2 goals
Most games in a row missed : 1 (3 times)

Keane on the other hand has yet to miss a game and has started 10 already. I have little doubt he will improve, it would be hard for someone as good as him to keep up the poor record, but anyone who thinks that I have ever suggested he isn't good enough for Liverpool obviously has a comprehension problem. It is possible to be critical of a player without wanting them out or 'hating' them. When I want a player out I will state so, usually I say "we should sell them in January". Anyone doubting the truth of this should check back through my posts as I said it of Crouch and Pennant - once both had shown not to be good enough for LFC - and weren't playing enough of a role so that they might as well not be here and their value would decrease while they weren't in the side. Of course with Crouch it was also a case that other clubs would pay a few million for him so he was one of our more valued assets - worth more in sale value than in use to the team. Keane is harder to equate at the moment, we won't get £20m for him but we could get what he is worth for him so where's the point in selling?

I'll leave you all to debate this, I've seen most people's opinions on Keane and views on my views. I'm just glad we didn't waste £20m on a certain villa player, we've been stung with shopping in the Premiership plenty of times and yet we keep going back and, in some cases*, paying too much for players.

Fowler
Crouch
Pennant
Bellamy
Benayoun
Keane
Technically Mascherano was never owned by West Ham, but if you like we can assume he was bought on the basis of playing for them

Hardly the best selection of Rafa's signings, regardless of fees

*yes, do read in some cases because a lot of people on here don't read things properly before going off on one, not that I am coming back to read the replies.

If you don't agree or even accept what I've said, I couldn't care less. Bury your heads in the sand over it :upside:

The point of this thread is those "backing Keane regardless" should think about whether this is something they do indiscriminately to all players, or is it selective. While I may have made the mistake of mentioning Keane's £20m fee, the point remains that his record for a striker would have seen him dropped if he hadn't cost £20m. A better strike-rate than that saw Voronin out of the door, his last five games were reason enough to persist with him.

Crouch, much loved by some, was sold on - at a profit, more than I expected anyone to pay for him under the circumstances. Robbie Fowler was happy playing some part, he didn't get much of a look in either and he didn't stay long. Bellamy had a fair few chances, I don't recall fans on here shouting about it if he was left out. So don't tell me the fact that he cost £20m doesn't play any part in those wishing him to "come good" because I don't see you giving that backing to N'Gog or to past strikers - no finer example than Kuyt who went through a lean spell and has been slated by some ever since. Those suggesting I use stats selectively should consider so do they with their arguments, not that it is fair to talk about goals when comparing a striker with someone playing wide - not that Keane has scored more than Kuyt has, even with Keane's advantage of playing up front.

So knock yourselves out everyone, seems to be the general approach on these boards to have digs, hurl insults and argue to such an extent that threads get locked. The fact that you can't respect other's opinions without feeling you all have to jump on the bandwagon and have goes at people is one reason I often don't bother reading some people's posts. It's easy to sit in judgement, I've offered a fair and unblinkered assessment of the Keane situation. To have someone suggest your post is "disappointing" simply because you don't agree with it, or possibly don't get where the poster is coming from, is itself a disappointing post (sorry Sabre I think it was, but did you really need to start a reply that way?) Others don't even debate the point, they simply go in with a number of irrelevancies and past unrelated comments, and don't even comment directly on the post (pathetic). Whether he should be playing more or playing less is a matter of opinion - the whole point of the boards.

This petty sniping culture is one of the reasons I didn't come on here for a while, the other being a lack of variety in discussing Liverpool players, Liverpool matches and Liverpool issues. Come on here regularly and it's the same boring debates even in the wrong threads. I'd be surprised if there are many recent threads without Kuyt mentioned, it should really be added to the dictionary as a word in common overusage

by **Sabre** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:22 am

For me it was dissapointing, which I didn't think it would be offensive for you. Apologises for that. I didn't have to start the thread that way, but you shouldn't have stated that other's judgement is clouded. That dissapointed me and that's the lightest way I had to say so.

Meaning, I don't care to be wrong and be told so, *I like* to read people disagreeing me, but I'm bored hearing from members how their opinion is realistic and not clouded, and everybody else is not.

Your stat comparison between Keane and Voronin could have gone in the Keane thread, and is nice you bring it because it's a good example of how stats fail to explain how Keane is miles better than Voronin.

*But* you make a couple of extra criticism, that you know what? it's fair.

It's fair to say that in newkit we got stuck with some debates such as the Alonso, or Kuyt, or Rotation one. And it's fair to say that sometimes those discussions extended to other threads. In my book, if we discussed Rotation in the rotation thread no one should complain, they should ignore the thread and that's all. But we have extended the discussion to other places and I'm guilty of that.

And it's fair to say we could be discussing about a wider range of topics. I for instance think that we should focus less in individual players and analyse more the collective game and the synergies of the team.

I think that in the Alonso debate it has helped the mutual ignoration of the posters that disagree often, if no sensible discussion is possible then move on, I think it can be a good idea.

Another criticism I'll throw to newkit as a place to discuss football is that we're white or black. Either a player comes and is a massive success a la Mascherano and Torres, or it's a massive failure. In fact, Riera is the exception, he's the first signing I remember in 4 years in newkit in which there's a good balance between criticism and praise. People know to appreciate what he does well, but also notice what he could do better.

All in all, in your thread there are a couple of fair points of criticism in the discussion of footie here, and I take note of them, as I think many will have similar thoughts.

by **Number 9** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:55 am

The facts are there to see.No one can argue that Keanes start with LFC has been dissapointing.Im as surprised as anyone that he has not scored more goals and played better in general.The thing is though he seemed to be starting to build a nice little understanding with Torres and then Torres gets injured,thats a bit of a knock back to the partnership of course but it happens in football.

I still have faith Keane will come good,its just taking longer than what we expected.
A lot have suggested that he is being asked to do a different job than at Spurs and that is the reason he is not producing.I dont buy that one bit.At Spurs Keane scored goals and was involved in build up play as well.Directly or indirectly he had a part in a lot as well.
He scored for his country last week then for us which shows a bit of promise.I really dont think theres anything really technically wrong with what he is doing or is being asked to do.I think confidence is the main factor as to why he has'nt produced much yet.Maybe the fact he is playing beside the best striker in the world has put pressure on him a bit.
One of the pundits made an excellent point about Keane the other night.He said that Keane is at his best when he has not time to think and plays on his instinct.I reckon this is true.
I also reckon that when he gets a bit of confidence relaxs and stops trying TOO hard,his instict will take over and we will see the best of him!

As for compairing him to Voronin,well the numbers would incline someone that had never seen either play that Voronin was a slightly better player.Proof indeed again if needed that a lot of stats are misleading or just pointless!

As for people wanting shot of Voronin and giving Keane more time.Well that is obviously because everyone knows that Keane is 5 times the player that Voronin could ever hope to be!No doubt some will start crying soon if Keane takes a little longer,because thats the way on here.
I reckon he'll dry their eyes pretty soon though!

by **bigmick** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:11 am

Owz, Keane has started slowly. If what we are seeing now is the best he is capable of, we have been ripped off big style and have overpaid by about 12 million quid I reckon. I don't think though that when people kind of will him to do well (which they do) they are endulging in some kind of self-delusion, I just think that they recognise that the moeny we have paid for him represents a massive investment by the club and manager, and as such it'd be quite nice of it kind of paid off.

With the greatest of respect though, comparing Voronin to Keane in any sense other than length of hair is flying in the face of sensibility. Although I stated in my post on the keane thread that the Irishman and Torres were "by a distance" our best front two, it could sensibly be argued that our previous front one was more potent I guess (I wouldn't agree with the argument but it at least has some foundation). Equally, there is probably more than a poster or two on here who would argue that Kuyt and Torres are a better pairing than Keane and Torres. Once again I disagree, but this one is an interesting one and not one which can be dismissed lightly. Kuyt and Torres as a pairing doesn't really work for me, but it does for Torres (which is more important after all) in the sense that Kuyt stays well out of the way, unlike Keane on one or two embarassing occasions. Equally, Kuyt spends much of his time actively trying to make space for his strike partner (I actually think that when he plays up top this is by an absolute country mile his strong point), whereas Keane uses more mental energy thinking of ways in which he personally can influence the game. Also, based on very recent records Kuyts scoring record is superior even discounting the fact that he often hasn't started as a striker.

My memory is a bit longer though than a couple of weeks though, and I remember well the tortured expession on Dirks face when he ballooned chances over the bar, when he crossed rather than shot away to Blackburn with seconds left etc etc. His confidence has been a long time coming back, but it is back now. Far better in my eyes to leave him on the right where he can legitimately go three quarters of a season without scoring a goal but contribute in other directions. He is playing the very best football of his Liverpool career right now, leave him where he is and let Keane become the player we all know he can.

Anyhow in conclusion i think we can argue whether we should have stuck to the 4-5-1. We can argue whether we'd simply be better off with Kuyt up front instead of Keane. We won't though have an argument that Keane has been disappointing so far as we all know he has, nor however will there be much enthusiasm for comparing the Irishman to Voronin I shouldn't think. There simply is no football comparison.

by **Scottbot** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:22 pm

Owzat wrote:Since Keane seems to be flavour of the month I thought I'd point out that a few on here are just a little bit selective with who they want to do well. Yes Keane did cost £20m, Voronin cost nothing. But even on a straight comparison of scoring records Voronin did as much as Keane has and yet noone backed Voronin "until he came good" or insist that he start the next game any time he scored a goal.

I don't see why you find this strange tbh mate? I see what you are trying to say and there is some truth in it BUT comparing Keane and Voronin??? Look at the back-drop behind each purchase:

Keane

- We have all seen him play very well for a number of clubs over the years
- He was/is 100% proven in English football
- He has a good record in internatonial football (despite his fellow Paddys getting on his back from time to time!)
- Spurs desperately wanted to keep him
- Spurs fans desperately wanted to keep him
- He's been a class act his whole career

Voronin

- No-one knew anything about him
- His club let him run his contract down
- No-one came in to buy him on the cheap in the last year of his contract
- His previous scoring/assists record (i believe) was inferior to Keanes
- His international goal scoring record was woeful
- He had no previous experience in English football
- He hadn't been playing very well in front of our own eyes in the epl for the previous 7-8 years on the bounce

Is it any wonder that fans are willing Keane to do well in the Red shirt? We (or at least I do) know he can do it. I sat there at Anfield when we played Spurs last season. Two chances, two goals, bang. That's why i'm willing him to do well. He is a class act in my book. Voronin was a steady player. He had a decent touch, worked his socks off, kept it simple and was an honest player with a goal or two in him. But he was never a Liverpool player, NEVER. No good willing him to become one when it was blatantly obvious it was never going to happen. Even when he started brightly with a few goals you didn't see it lasting.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:30 pm

Scottbot wrote:
Owzat wrote:Since Keane seems to be flavour of the month I thought I'd point out that a few on here are just a little bit selective with who they want to do well. Yes Keane did cost £20m, Voronin cost nothing. But even on a straight comparison of scoring records Voronin did as much as Keane has and yet noone backed Voronin "until he came good" or insist that he start the next game any time he scored a goal.

I don't see why you find this strange tbh mate? I see what you are trying to say and there is some truth in it BUT comparing Keane and Voronin??? Look at the back-drop behind each purchase:

Keane

- We have all seen him play very well for a number of clubs over the years
- He was/is 100% proven in English football
- He has a good record in internatonial football (despite his fellow Paddys getting on his back from time to time!)
- Spurs desperately wanted to keep him
- Spurs fans desperately wanted to keep him
- He's been a class act his whole career

Voronin

- No-one knew anything about him
- His club let him run his contract down
- No-one came in to buy him on the cheap in the last year of his contract
- His previous scoring/assists record (i believe) was inferior to Keanes
- His international goal scoring record was woeful
- He had no previous experience in English football
- He hadn't been playing very well in front of our own eyes in the epl for the previous 7-8 years on the bounce

Is it any wonder that fans are willing Keane to do well in the Red shirt? We (or at least I do) know he can do it. I sat there at Anfield when we played Spurs last season. Two chances, two goals, bang. That's why i'm willing him to do well. He is a class act in my book. Voronin was a steady player. He had a decent touch, worked his socks off, kept it simple and was an honest player with a goal or two in him. But he was never a Liverpool player, NEVER. No good willing him to become one when it was blatantly obvious it was never going to happen. Even when he started brightly with a few goals you didn't see it lasting.

Agree completely. I'm not sure what the original post is intended to prove really - Keane is obviously a better footballer than Voronin, anyone with eyes in their head knows that, hence people are prepared to be a bit more patient with him.

He's proven what quality he has in the past, I for one am confident he will get to that level again for us.

Voronin was dross from the start, and proved to be so for most of his time at our club.

by **Bam** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:51 pm

Kinel considering the topic starter critised Crouch and blamed him in his post for the way Liverpool played ? with him in the side. Then defends Kuyts scoring record and now Voronins is not even up for worthy discussion imo.

Its a wind up thread.

by **lewerty** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:17 pm

how many has keane set up and voronin is a lazy cu next tuesday

by **Bam** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:19 pm

lewerty wrote:how many has keane set up and voronin is a lazy cu next tuesday

Come again ?

by **Number 9** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:22 pm

Bam wrote:
lewerty wrote:how many has keane set up and voronin is a lazy cu next tuesday

Come again ?

I think he means to use the n of next and the t of tuesday after the cu he wrote!

Dont ask me why though! :cool:

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:12 pm

I don't think Owzat's post is a windup post , I think if our season had been slightly less fortunate than it has been, there would be a lot more questioning the changes we have made both to personel and formation this season. Keane would be taking much more "blame" for not producing and a few would no doubt be laying our poor results at his door.

While I don't believe its been entirely down to luck, our season could have been looking completely different by now. Out of Europe to Liege , and with Everton and Crewe as our only wins of the season. TBH it wouldn't have taken much bad luck to see our season in turmoil and calls for the managers head , players to be receiving all kinds of criticism and our Title challenge over for yet another season.

People tend to be a lot more forgiving of players when things are going well!

Luck, determination, astute substitutions and some good late football has seen us come from behind more times than Judge.

by **andy_g** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:38 pm

fair play to you owzat for trying to get a different angle of discussion going but i think this one is doomed. as people have already pointed out, keane is a better footballer than voronin and just about anyone who watches or is involved with football in any way is likely to agree. i actually liked voronin as a squad layer and thought he was better than many made out but i'm delighted to have keane there and him out on loan. its a massive step up in terms of the team and the squad. i think you could offer any of the top clubs around europe the same thing - voronin for nowt or keane for 20 million, thats the only striker you can have for this season. how many of them do you think would take the voronin option? maybe 20 million IS a little too much for keane but that's besides the point.

by **Bam** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:41 pm

s@int wrote:I don't think Owzat's post is a windup post , I think if our season had been slightly less fortunate than it has been, there would be a lot more questioning the changes we have made both to personel and formation this season. Keane would be taking much more "blame" for not producing and a few would no doubt be laying our poor results at his door.

While I don't believe its been entirely down to luck, our season could have been looking completely different by now. Out of Europe to Liege , and with Everton and Crewe as our only wins of the season. TBH it wouldn't have taken much bad luck to see our season in turmoil and calls for the managers head , players to be receiving all kinds of criticism and our Title challenge over for yet another season.

People tend to be a lot more forgiving of players when things are going well!

Luck, determination, astute substitutions and some good late football has seen us come from behind more times than Judge.

Well myself and others have given their opinions on Keane in the 'Keane' thread. And its not all glowing one way traffic Saint, I have pointed out a few doubts myself on there, but compare him to Voronin is just ridiculous IMO.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:02 pm

Bam wrote:
s@int wrote:I don't think Owzat's post is a windup post , I think if our season had been slightly less fortunate than it has been, there would be a lot more questioning the changes we have made both to personel and formation this season. Keane would be taking much more "blame" for not producing and a few would no doubt be laying our poor results at his door.

While I don't believe its been entirely down to luck, our season could have been looking completely different by now. Out of Europe to Liege , and with Everton and Crewe as our only wins of the season. TBH it wouldn't have taken much bad luck to see our season in turmoil and calls for the managers head , players to be receiving all kinds of criticism and our Title challenge over for yet another season.

People tend to be a lot more forgiving of players when things are going well!

Luck, determination, astute substitutions and some good late football has seen us come from behind more times than Judge.

Well myself and others have given their opinions on Keane in the 'Keane' thread. And its not all glowing one way traffic Saint, I have pointed out a few doubts myself on there, but compare him to Voronin is just ridiculous IMO.

You are no doubt right mate, but I wonder just how different our season would have been up to now if we had kept Voronin and not bought Keane? Not much I would imagine.

Up to now I would think there would have been little difference. The difference is we all expect Keane to improve while I think we all thought we had probably seen the best of Voronin unfortunately.

Maybe the fact that we have a £20million pound striker rather than a "freebie" has added a little extra confidence to the team when Torres and Gerrard haven't been available ? Maybe its taken a little pressure off Kuyt to see an expensive striker struggle rather than score for fun like Torres did ?

Its difficult to judge the psychological impact a player has on a team, far easier to judge how the player has performed, and for me his impact as a player has been far less than I expected or hoped for.

Keane and Voronin comparison ..... ridiculous, I AGREE mate, but........ off Keane's first 10 games or so, not so ridiculous that the comprison can't be made.

by **tubby** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:58 pm

He is only good in pre season. Otherwise he is a waste of space. Ill be glad once we see the back of him for good.

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