Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:25 pm

I think its also a lot to do with the way we are playing now. We are far more attack minded now than ever before under rafa, and as much as it would be great to switch to this more offensive way of playing, scoring more goal and still have a near perfect defensive record it is unlikely.

Teams who score more generally concede more.. but if you look at Stu's breakdown of goals conceded I don't think there is too much to be worried about. Individual mistakes that have so far cost us nothing!

However, I am a little concerned about the game against Chelsea. An individual mistake from anyone in this forthcoming game and I think even we will struggle to come back to win from behind at SB

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:17 pm

Bad Bob wrote:1) Mido shot from distance (Alonso guilty of giving the ball away in midfield)
2) Tevez scoring after a run and cut-back from Berbatov (Mascherano guilty of not tracking the run; Skrtel may have done better in cutting out the cut-back)
3) Cana springs the offside trap and scores for Marseille (Carra guilty of playing him onside and Masch slightly culpable in not closing down Cheyrou)
4) O'Connor sticks a rebound home for Crewe off a corner (Agger beaten in the air and Diego can only parry the header to the feet of the Crewe man)
5) Koevermans finds the seam and scores from a cross (Aurelio could have done better to prevent the cross and Skrtel caught ball-watching, allowing the PSV man to get goalside)
6) Ireland's volley for Man City (Aurelio gave the ball away to SWP who managed to cut the ball back to Robinho and Arbeloa failed to hack clear)
7) Garrido's free kick (Riera puts in a poor challenge near our box to give them the free kick)
8) Zaki's first (a mare from Agger with Reina not helping matters)
9) Zaki's second (Dossena and Agger fail to put the ball in Row Z and allow Valencia to cross; Arbeloa fails to cut out the cross)

There seem to be a lot of "one off" gaffs there that hopefully won't repeat themselves. I think once Agger finds his feet again, we'll look that much more solid. I still have concerns over our fullbacks but I don't think our defending is too dire at this point.

Well I'm no lover of stats, preferring to trust my own eyes when judging football situations. Some stats though can't be argued with. Which team gets the most points over the course of a season is normailly the best one, a striker who scores lots of goals (regardless of whatever else he does just about) is a player worthy of the name etc etc.

Similarly, good defences don't concede many goals, and the best ones concede less than pretty much everyone else. My feeling is you could probably put a "reason" down for pretty much every goal anybody concedes anywhere. It'll always be "so and so let himself get turned, the keeper could have done better, we didn't get tight enough" etc etc.

It's not just about goals either, we are conceding plenty of chances and shots on target too. No, there is no question in my mind that the defensive unit is performing a fair way below standard right now. Fortunately we've been able to score plenty of goals to pull ourselves out of the sh!te, but I wouldn't have thought that if we played Man Utd again tomorrow and conceded a soft goal after two minutes that we'd turn it on it's head again. Similary, if we concede two soft goals at Stamford Bridge at the weekend, I wouldn't then "expect" us to win either.

We do have one of the best defensive coaches in World football to sort it out, and my money is on him doing that. If we are to be genuine contenders though into the final lap in February/March (which I am fairly sure we will be if we continue with our current mode of selection) then Rafa is going to need to sort it out fairly smartly.

Given "Dirky boy's" golden run of scoring, and Torres's injury, he must surely be tempted to move Gerrard out to the right and bring Masherano in to stiffen things up a tad. I remain absolutely convinced that this is our best midfield, and I would therefore advocate playing it ona regular basis. If "Dirky boy" continues as he is, let him and Keane fight it out to partner Torres up top.

I would also give Agger a try at left back as I say.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:35 pm

If were going to play Gerrard in the centre of a 4 man midfield we are all going to have to accept that the defenders will have a lot more work to do. The truth is that our good defensive record under Rafa has been down to our system and team ethic when it comes to defending. None of our defenders are world class, we have good Premiership defenders, nothing more.

So many fans want us to play 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the centre and 2 wingers, well you have it now but don’t be surprised to see the opposition have twice as many chances.

Personally I would play Aurelio ahead of Dossena any day of the week. And what of Insua? Are any of these youngsters that Rafa has spent money on ever going to come into contention or are they just there to make sure our reserve team don’t get battered every week? We lost Finnan and Riise and bought in a cripple and someone who looks like an over weight fishmonger.

I also think it will only take one bad defensive performance and subsequent defeat before Rafa goes back to not liking Gerrard in the centre and preferring to choose between Alonso, Masch and Lucus.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:09 pm

bigmick wrote:My feeling is you could probably put a "reason" down for pretty much every goal anybody concedes anywhere. It'll always be "so and so let himself get turned, the keeper could have done better, we didn't get tight enough" etc etc.

It's not just about goals either, we are conceding plenty of chances and shots on target too. No, there is no question in my mind that the defensive unit is performing a fair way below standard right now.

I wasn't trying to 'explain away' our defensive showing so far, mate. I posted the basic details of each goal conceded to highlight the fact that there's no real discernible pattern to our softness at the back. It's not like you can look at the list and say "ah, we've been done on set pieces" or "feck me, Dossena's at the heart of most our defensive problems." There just seems to be a collective step down from our high standards.

by **Number 9** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:18 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:My feeling is you could probably put a "reason" down for pretty much every goal anybody concedes anywhere. It'll always be "so and so let himself get turned, the keeper could have done better, we didn't get tight enough" etc etc.

It's not just about goals either, we are conceding plenty of chances and shots on target too. No, there is no question in my mind that the defensive unit is performing a fair way below standard right now.

I wasn't trying to 'explain away' our defensive showing so far, mate. I posted the basic details of each goal conceded to highlight the fact that there's no real discernible pattern to our softness at the back. It's not like you can look at the list and say "ah, we've been done on set pieces" or "feck me, Dossena's at the heart of most our defensive problems." There just seems to be a collective step down from our high standards.

Maybe Pelligrino is doing more harm than good! :nod

I dunno maybe he's overcomplicating things with his theories on defending?
Just a thought.Or maybe there is NO reason and we have just been unlucky.Either way we aint at our usual at the back but I expect it to get a hell of a lot better,its just not like us.

I've watched Zakis excellent goal again and again and again,it should not have happened full stop.Theres no excuse on earth for Dossena not tackling him.There were chances to put it out for a corner or stick it in row Z!No wonder Carra went feckin mad at him

by **Zidane** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:27 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:My feeling is you could probably put a "reason" down for pretty much every goal anybody concedes anywhere. It'll always be "so and so let himself get turned, the keeper could have done better, we didn't get tight enough" etc etc.

It's not just about goals either, we are conceding plenty of chances and shots on target too. No, there is no question in my mind that the defensive unit is performing a fair way below standard right now.

I wasn't trying to 'explain away' our defensive showing so far, mate. I posted the basic details of each goal conceded to highlight the fact that there's no real discernible pattern to our softness at the back. It's not like you can look at the list and say "ah, we've been done on set pieces" or "feck me, Dossena's at the heart of most our defensive problems." There just seems to be a collective step down from our high standards.

I agree with Bob there's no way to point out a certain flaw we've had it's all over atm. It makes me wonder if not having Masch back there makes us more vulnerable than people may think. Even though he was at fault once he covers a lot of peoples asses when he's back there.

Most of them have just been stupid mistakes and maybe we're overthinking it. Hopefully i'm right and it gets sorted out against Atletico. Would be nice to get a clean sheet there and have some confidence defensively for Chelsea.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:32 pm

Pellegrino, just not too worrying concentration glitches that happen from time to time, playing two pure wingers, Alonso being less tough defensively than Mascherano, our full backs not being good enough, Agger needing matches, Skrtel's unexperience...

Who knows?

The best thing about Rafa seeing (admittedly) the light is that we finally can discuss, speculate, and blame that other many factors that explain the problems a team have, and even in these happy days, we still can improve some problems.

What I do know is that Rafa must be fuming about this, and I'm sure he'll get the team back to their usual solidness. He'll know how to, because during Rafa's reign, if anything, we've been solid defensively. In some days, reaching perfection, like in that Barcelona away game where we won in the stadium Chelsea and Manchester United never won. (I recall that game because I don't like reading too much pessimism before the Stamford Bridge game)

This year we seem to have addressed the "left wing problem" we all admitted we had. This year we're getting victories where last year we got draws. This year we even have seen Rafa seeing the light. I'm pretty sure we'll recover our usual defensive solidness, because that's the stuff we do best.

My bet? in two months I don't know if we'll be top of the table, but if we aren't I don't think we'll be blaming our back four of it.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:15 pm

We haven't made our oppenents work hard enough to get the goals they did, and that's mainly down to sloppy play because of a lack of concentration. We're obviously not operating at full capacity in a defensive sense (and an attacking one), but at least we know we're capable of reaching a much more consistent level as evidenced in past seasons, and I fully expect us to reach that level in time. You don't have to be a great defender to be able to remedy the errors that have cost us two in two, it's fairly simple; work hard a concentrate. As Agger gets games and finds his level, he'll improve, and with Chelsea away coming up I've no doubt Rafa will be focussing on our defence more than ever.

by **Espionage** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:18 am

Bad Bob wrote:1) Mido shot from distance (Alonso guilty of giving the ball away in midfield)
2) Tevez scoring after a run and cut-back from Berbatov (Mascherano guilty of not tracking the run; Skrtel may have done better in cutting out the cut-back)
3) Cana springs the offside trap and scores for Marseille (Carra guilty of playing him onside and Masch slightly culpable in not closing down Cheyrou)
4) O'Connor sticks a rebound home for Crewe off a corner (Agger beaten in the air and Diego can only parry the header to the feet of the Crewe man)
5) Koevermans finds the seam and scores from a cross (Aurelio could have done better to prevent the cross and Skrtel caught ball-watching, allowing the PSV man to get goalside)
6) Ireland's volley for Man City (Aurelio gave the ball away to SWP who managed to cut the ball back to Robinho and Arbeloa failed to hack clear)
7) Garrido's free kick (Riera puts in a poor challenge near our box to give them the free kick)
8) Zaki's first (a mare from Agger with Reina not helping matters)
9) Zaki's second (Dossena and Agger fail to put the ball in Row Z and allow Valencia to cross; Arbeloa fails to cut out the cross)

Great list that you posted there Bob, confirms what I guessed that we have had a bit of bad luck to be down in the games that we came back from.

I know that this is a thread about defense and at the moment defense in our biggest worry, but we are failing to see that for large parts of the game our defense has looked really good. Take out a lot of these one off type goals and we actually have a good defensive team. We are the same team that was getting all those clean sheets last year, nothing has changed IMO.

by **desmdlow** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:11 am

I think our defensive weakness comes from the more adventurous approach to the game. I think RB like to use our full backs to create width and therefore more overlapping.. Which i think is also one of the reasons for our shortcomings in defence.

Last season we will not see RB take out both Fullbacks and put on more attacking players eventhough they are down to 10 man.. I sense that RB have more faith in us winning every match than last season where he adopt the 'damage limitation' approach (remember sunderland? prior to Champion League match similar to this week at Wigan..)

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:23 am

metalhead wrote:No, we aren't sound at the back at all, we have conceded really silly goals this season. our fullbacks are a real worry, Arbeloa and Dosenna aren't up to it to be honest, so we need new ones. We need a top center half, we really do, we need someone who can get the first header and knows how to distribute the ball, not hoofing it ala Carragher.

The reason we had the strongest defence a few years ago its because Hyppia was still at his best and our fullbacks weren't bad either, especially Finnan who was consistant as you stated andy

Well yeh but would you rather us defend better and draw games or defend worse and win games 3-2 ?

I think it just fact we are alot more attack minded this season and plus we have some new lads in the full back positions.

I personal think we be ok once the full back settle , but you can't tell me the full backs are not as good going forward as what we used to have ?

Lets wait till Jan to start to see where our new buys fit in if at all ?

Then at least we can start to let it known how we feel to some cronstuctive point , but now these players are all we have and I don't think the tier 2 or 3 players would do much better.

by **Bam** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:55 am

Given "Dirky boy's" golden run of scoring, and Torres's injury, he must surely be tempted to move Gerrard out to the right and bring Masherano in to stiffen things up a tad. I remain absolutely convinced that this is our best midfield, and I would therefore advocate playing it ona regular basis. If "Dirky boy" continues as he is, let him and Keane fight it out to partner Torres up top.

I would also give Agger a try at left back as I say.

Styling hey

I'm going to presume your not advocating we do all this "styling" for our game down at the Bridge ?

If you are however advocating this for the match at Chelsea, not only am I going to tell you its ludicrous to do so IMO, but give you the reasons why.

Defence: Playing Agger at LB, well we dont know how he'll fair TBH. But given the fact he looked pretty rusty in his own position on Saturday. I'd say we're pretty much going to have a few teething problems there.

By playing Agger at left back, we'll bring in Sami to partner Carra. I personally dont think its an ideal game for Hyypia, we'll inevitably sit a bit deeper IMO. Otherwise Anelka will have a fielday running past Sami if the defensive line is pushed up. But, by sitting that bit deeper than we'd normally do with someone like Agger or Skertel at the heart of the defense, we'll not only conceed territorial ground to them but we'll invite pressure onto us. We dont need to give Chelsea any added insentives to attack us, and playing Sami at the back with Mascha and Alonso infront of him, will cry out 'ATTACK US'.

Central midfield: Lets be fair here.. Xabi turns slower than the titanic, with ground conceeded having Hyypia in the side. Alonso will be squeezed into submission, he'll have no room to play and will be made to look pretty ordinary IMO. Javier wont be to effective either, both him and Alonso will do their stuff pretty well without the ball (the defensive stuff) which is what Mascha's best at anyway. Defensively they'll be sound, and I'd personally prefer to see them two played central in a five man midfield, but not a four, not against Chelsea.

With Gerrard on the right its another big no no for me. He's way to easily nullified out there, especially by Chelsea. He wont get a look in and Chelsea and Ashley Cole in particular had him in their pocket the last time we tried this at the Bridge. Inevitabley he'll go searching for the ball or roaming for it, trying to get himself into the game. Not only will we lose shape and width, but Arbeloa will lose cover and an outlet. And if Chelsea attack our RB while Gerrards off roaming he'll get raped.

Two things I'd consider for this particular game would be. Keep a 4-4-2, but drop Alonso for Mascha.

Like this: Reina

Arbeloa Carra Agger Dossena

Kuyt Gerrard Mascha Rieria

Keane Torres

I know Dossena looks suspect, but we dont have anyone else (Aurelio is just as bad imo). So I'd stick with what we've got and with what we know. We know the Italian is a weak link in our armour, but at least with Mascha's pace and Rieria's tracking back he'll get some adequate cover. Kuyt on the right would offer more security to Arbeloa, he'll workk his socks off down that flank (more than Gerrard would) and at least give us some shape and a little more reliable width.

Or style the formation and go:

Reina

Arbeloa Carra Agger Dossena

Mascha Alonso

Kuyt Gerrard Rieira

Torres

PS. If Torres isnt fit for this fixture, I'd play just one upfront, Keane maybe. He wont get too much joy on his own upfront. But pairing him with Kuyt or N'gog will be folly IMO. I'd rather the extra steel in midfield and have either on of Mascha and Alonso ahead of Kuyt or N'gog upfront. N''gog will just get chewed up and spat out by Terry and co and it would be a waste of a quality player in midfield. Kuyts similar to Keane he'll work hard, but neither of them (certainly Keane) have got goals in them at the moment. Although Kuyts have a floury recently, but against quality defenders you need real quality strikers and at the moment only Torres fits that bill.

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:57 am

Not really styling Bam no. I certainly wouldn't advocate making all the changes I've talked about (three) in one match, and not as you say all against Chelsea. Agger at left back and Hyppia centrally is something of a flier, and it's one I'd like to see tried as a second half sub when we're 2-0 up at Home sometime. I'm not at this stage advocating sticking the Dane at left back against Chelsea, I would do the same as you and leave Dossena there, mainly because he's all we've got (Aurelio's no doubt injured again, he usually is). I actually think the only change will be Masherano brouhgt in for Pennant, with Kuyt moving back to the right and Keane employed as a lone striker, with Gerrard in behind. I think that's what the manager will do, and I actually think that's what he should do as well.

The Gerrard on the right angle is a bit more of a longer term aspiration. I've been banging on about it for a good while now, and I'm not so much saying we should give it a crack for a game or two, but rather that that should be our first choice team. I'm sure if we moved Gerrard out there against Chelsea and left Pennant out, bringing Masherano into the centre with Alonso it would instantly make us more compact and harder to break down. This though will be even more the case if we move "Dirky boy" back into his favoured slot, and bring Mash in to shore things up.

All in all for the Chelsea game I'm recommending we make one change to the team, and one change to the positions in which people play (Kuyt back to the right). Given the circumstances, their home record, the importance of the game and the need to stay solid etc, I'm happy enough that is fairly consistent with my views on team selection TBH.

by **Octsky** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:45 pm

right now our wing backs are disgraceful.. they actually made JAR looks indispensable. like a number of you guys here, i agree on playing agger as left back as he look comfortable taking the ball forward and shows lot of game intelligence. play sami and skrtel (once recovered) in the centre and carra on the right. or bring in some youngest to play on the right.

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:46 pm

Octsky wrote:right now our wing backs are disgraceful.. they actually made JAR looks indispensable. like a number of you guys here, i agree on playing agger as left back as he look comfortable taking the ball forward and shows lot of game intelligence. play sami and skrtel (once recovered) in the centre and carra on the right. or bring in some youngest to play on the right.

Thats is way to drastic my friend Move carra to right back ? I feel he is ok right back but no better then arba he is wasted there imo.

Carra is one of the hardest nails you ever likely to meet as a striker and shouldn't be wasted on wide pacey players which if carra has been weak at any thing in his life would be that extra few yards of pace.

As for agger on left yes but remember agger is as good with his right as his left so you could play him right or left back.

I would like to see agger given a game as left back vrs chavski Bcos I feel he A. has great games vrs them and B. I feel if chavski have weakness it is up the right.

Expsect riera and what ever left back we have in that game to play a massive role in if we win or lose.

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