Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:30 am

Better quality link:

LINK

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:34 am

Wengers clueless, he doesn't know what he's talking about, why doesn't he manage a top club and bring loads of players through if he knows what he's doing?

Oh wait he does.

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:37 am

Now, wheres that thread gone where I got ripped for saying pretty much the same things? I wonder...

:shifty

by **whylongball?** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:42 am

Fo Dne wrote:
Sabre wrote:So, the opinions I'd like to read from you

* In Which current or past Liverpool players did you see a clear evolution thanks to experience

* What can be improved through experience or a proper teaching manager? What cannot?

* Bearing in mind the previous point, what can we expect of some young players like Babel?

1. Carragher, gained confidence and found a position which he's settled into in a system which has suited him from day one. He's well drilled, knows the system inside out and has benefitted from playing alongside Sami over the years.

2. No attributes can be improved by training, if they could everyone do it. You gain a consistency by training and it helps you keep the same level, but you develop a natural ability from a young age which is kind of your limit in a particular area. Players will never exceed that limit. Players can learn systems and about other players and find out what other players are good at. IE you aren't going to ask Keane to chase long balls, where as Torres you might.

3. Nothing other than he's done already. Not good enough, never will be.

the more i read of your opinions the more i think you are one-dimensional and very centered around your own opinions :no

Any one can improve with training! if you haven't improved through training, then maybe you have not got the right attitude to train in the first place. I've seen a lot of people improve, experienced myself improvement While no one can improve in all aspects, one can definitely improve in certain aspects.

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:44 am

whylongball? wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Sabre wrote:So, the opinions I'd like to read from you

* In Which current or past Liverpool players did you see a clear evolution thanks to experience

* What can be improved through experience or a proper teaching manager? What cannot?

* Bearing in mind the previous point, what can we expect of some young players like Babel?

1. Carragher, gained confidence and found a position which he's settled into in a system which has suited him from day one. He's well drilled, knows the system inside out and has benefitted from playing alongside Sami over the years.

2. No attributes can be improved by training, if they could everyone do it. You gain a consistency by training and it helps you keep the same level, but you develop a natural ability from a young age which is kind of your limit in a particular area. Players will never exceed that limit. Players can learn systems and about other players and find out what other players are good at. IE you aren't going to ask Keane to chase long balls, where as Torres you might.

3. Nothing other than he's done already. Not good enough, never will be.

the more i read of your opinions the more i think you are one-dimensional and very centered around your own opinions
Any one can improve with training! if you haven't improved through training, then maybe you have not got the right attitude to train in the first place. I've seen a lot of people improve, experienced myself improvement While no one can improve in all aspects, one can definitely improve in certain aspects.

Not according to Wenger and he knows more than you because he's a top coach who's won the premier league and brought kids through...

Ahh its great to be able to use bullshit arguements. I could get used to this.

by **Rush Job** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:45 am

Fo Dne wrote:Wengers clueless, he doesn't know what he's talking about, why doesn't he manage a top club and bring loads of players through if he knows what he's doing?

Oh wait he does.

Stu`s in smug mode.

by **Zidane** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:46 am

I think training doesn't improve your actual set of skills but it improves your form and consistency.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:54 am

Rush Job wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Wengers clueless, he doesn't know what he's talking about, why doesn't he manage a top club and bring loads of players through if he knows what he's doing?

Oh wait he does.

Stu`s in smug mode.

by **Igor Zidane** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:58 am

I always said wenger was clueless . Give me gary megson anytime , class player , class manager.

by **Rush Job** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:54 am

FWIW i agree with stu (yes and wenger

) comments on players not suddenly learning new "tricks" at like 25 but i also think its a generalization, wenger certainly speaks that way, im sure he would admit its not set in stone but thats generally the way it works.
Also bare in mind they (managers) have a limited amount of time with youngsters and they cant wait around untill a players 25 to see if their good enough.
You can certainly add things to your game though hard work, its only muscle memory after all, like Beckam, if there was ever a player that made it though shear hard work and practise, staying behind after every training session to drill free kicks over and over.
Like i say its muscle memory, i think anyone can improve though hard work and drilling somethink over and over.
How much though is a different question.

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:38 am

Kharhaz wrote:Ian Wright. Started professional football late didnt he? and got better with age. If im wrong, i'll just shurrup.

I already used the Ian Wright thing with Stu it won't work he got his head so far up his own ideals he can't see true logic and fact is he is wrong about this.

He started to play football at 22 Ian couldn't get a pro contact before that cos he was dire.

But some one seen him and thought I can teach him to have a first touch and to finish , but to Stu's law of inevitability Kids just don't learn they are all doomed to a life of being :censored:

at what ever they do.

Shoot them I say shoot them all in the heads and be done with it.

by **Owzat** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:58 am

LegBarnes wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:Ian Wright. Started professional football late didnt he? and got better with age. If im wrong, i'll just shurrup.

I already used the Ian Wright thing with Stu it won't work he got his head so far up his own ideals he can't see true logic and fact is he is wrong about this.

He started to play football at 22 Ian couldn't get a pro contact before that cos he was dire.

But some one seen him and thought I can teach him to have a first touch and to finish , but to Stu's law of inevitability Kids just don't learn they are all doomed to a life of being at what ever they do.

Shoot them I say shoot them all in the heads and be done with it.

To quote a line from Phoenix nights - "Stu - is that short for Stu-pid?"

Kevin Phillips

Early career

Phillips started his football career as a right back. He was released by Southampton in his youth and was quickly snapped up by one of his local teams, non-league semi-professional Baldock Town F.C. There his eye for goal and unique ball control were quickly noticed and he was shifted to striker. His goalscoring turned Baldock into a top-of-the-table side, as well as a huge progression in cup competitions, such as the FA Trophy. His exploits netted him a move into the Football League, to Watford.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Phillips_(footballer)

Went from non-league semi professional to a player who plays at Championship and Premiership level - and got him EIGHT England caps. Near enough a goal every other game for all his clubs bar Aston Villa (1 in 6), Watford and Southampton (both around 2 in 5)

Baldock Town : 15 in 31 appearances
Watford : 24 goals in 59 appearances
Sunderland : 115 goals in 208 appearances
Southampton : 23 goals in 64 appearances
Aston Villa : 4 goals in 23 appearances
WBA : 38 goals in 71 appearances
Birmingham : 4 goals in 9 appearances

I guess Stu's argument will be he was never a full-back! (or never that good) The expression "the harder I practice, the luckier I get" probably applies. Professional sportsmen practice, work on their technique, their skills and fitness. Plenty of players learn to pass, tackle and shoot later than others. They are SKILLS, everyone can learn new skills or does Stu believe old people not brought up in the age of computers can use them or the internet. Kids don't just learn how to walk, run and then they're either a footballer or they're not. They LEARN, some are naturally better at it than others. Those that aren't naturally skilled work at it, and even then most fail to make the grade. There are plenty of players who start off at lower levels and come up to higher levels, wasn't Joe Hart in the lower leagues? (Shrewsbury) Didn't Rush come from Chester? (3rd division) You can't tell me that they both decided that was who they wanted to play for, that they didn't fancy playing for Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal etc Something must have happened between them joining those clubs and then moving to bigger clubs - I wonder what that could have been......... :laugh:

by **babu** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:15 am

this is like ground hog day. This exact same discussion was raging when I joined.

Can we all just agree with Stu? its easier.

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:16 am

Owzat wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:Ian Wright. Started professional football late didnt he? and got better with age. If im wrong, i'll just shurrup.

I already used the Ian Wright thing with Stu it won't work he got his head so far up his own ideals he can't see true logic and fact is he is wrong about this.

He started to play football at 22 Ian couldn't get a pro contact before that cos he was dire.

But some one seen him and thought I can teach him to have a first touch and to finish , but to Stu's law of inevitability Kids just don't learn they are all doomed to a life of being at what ever they do.

Shoot them I say shoot them all in the heads and be done with it.

To quote a line from Phoenix nights - "Stu - is that short for Stu-pid?"

Kevin Phillips

Early career

Phillips started his football career as a right back. He was released by Southampton in his youth and was quickly snapped up by one of his local teams, non-league semi-professional Baldock Town F.C. There his eye for goal and unique ball control were quickly noticed and he was shifted to striker. His goalscoring turned Baldock into a top-of-the-table side, as well as a huge progression in cup competitions, such as the FA Trophy. His exploits netted him a move into the Football League, to Watford.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Phillips_(footballer)

Went from non-league semi professional to a player who plays at Championship and Premiership level - and got him EIGHT England caps. Near enough a goal every other game for all his clubs bar Aston Villa (1 in 6), Watford and Southampton (both around 2 in 5)

Baldock Town : 15 in 31 appearances
Watford : 24 goals in 59 appearances
Sunderland : 115 goals in 208 appearances
Southampton : 23 goals in 64 appearances
Aston Villa : 4 goals in 23 appearances
WBA : 38 goals in 71 appearances
Birmingham : 4 goals in 9 appearances

I guess Stu's argument will be he was never a full-back! (or never that good) The expression "the harder I practice, the luckier I get" probably applies. Professional sportsmen practice, work on their technique, their skills and fitness. Plenty of players learn to pass, tackle and shoot later than others. They are SKILLS, everyone can learn new skills or does Stu believe old people not brought up in the age of computers can use them or the internet. Kids don't just learn how to walk, run and then they're either a footballer or they're not. They LEARN, some are naturally better at it than others. Those that aren't naturally skilled work at it, and even then most fail to make the grade. There are plenty of players who start off at lower levels and come up to higher levels, wasn't Joe Hart in the lower leagues? (Shrewsbury) Didn't Rush come from Chester? (3rd division) You can't tell me that they both decided that was who they wanted to play for, that they didn't fancy playing for Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal etc Something must have happened between them joining those clubs and then moving to bigger clubs - I wonder what that could have been.........

Good post matey.

My point is about players like babel I have seen him have a great first touch and I have seen him pass well and bring others into the game.

Point is reason he isn't do that all the time at liverpool is due to the lack of games he gets here.

He is lacking confidence thats it very simple really more he plays better he will become even the greats of the world can't escape that fact.

I am sure if you took any top pro and played him only a handful of game per season you would see more mistakes from them bcos of there lack of sharpness.

But one thing that is consistent with Babel is he shows us moments of total class and he is a match winner END OFF !

Don't try to prove me wrong Stu bcos he has proven he comes up with the goods when he is asked. :buttrock

by **radun5** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:00 am

About learning how to use your other foot, I started using my left foot (good only for "getting on the bus" before) and training a lot in order to be able to shoot and pass with both feet. This happened when I was around 14 and worked good enough for people to ask me which is my strong leg much later; now I am pretty sure if I tried that at 24 it would have had much less success, but I still believe it can be learned if there is enough determination and mental strength.

It was very interesting to see Wenger's opinion, and I almost fully agree with it (except for the tactical - game reading part, which I believe is very important and can only be acquired through game experience).

But let us not forget people are not machines. That being said, they develop differently. So the age when you can gain certain attributes differ from person to person. You can have some average age(s) as limit for gaining certain attributes, but it can not apply mechanically to everybody.

Some players are still maturing physically after 20 years (they can get higher, stronger, etc) - that will influence their play a lot. Not to mention the psychological maturing of players, which is harder to observe but can happen later.

And about the thread, don't you lot feel sometimes it would be great to have a "spin-off thread" button, so that you can get in a war of opinions in a different thread than the original one ?

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