Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:22 pm

One of the recurring debates in newkit is when people see a Babel or a Sissoko and say, He'll be the new Viera, or the new John Barnes.

Then someone, generally Stu, points out that player don't become what they're not.

I agree this sentence, but at some extent. There are aspects of football that cannot be improved. Others can.

I remember Toshack in one of his training sessions. He went mad at some point and made a player hit the ball against a wall and bounce it back to improve his control. Controls can be improved with more training. What you cannot develop is more pace when you haven't, or a killing instict when you haven't it. You can't become a player with great vision neither if you aren't.

In that, Stu is right.

But I've seen far too many players evolving into a good player through experience. Experience changes your mindset, makes you learn a lot of things and that's what I want to debate with Stu and everyone else, with some instances:

Riera: Did many members call it wrong? Perhaps not. Perhaps they just described what they saw at that point, and perhaps they just have seen an improved player and a different player.

The Riera that came from Girondins was a different player, and even I think that the Riera that came from his first Manchester City experience, was a different player. You still haven't seen his stong left foot in shooting, but you shall see it. And that's something I didn't see him using in the early stages of his career. The composure with the ball, and having a "clear mind" to not lose the ball is something he has improved. He'll never be fast though.

Reina

This keeper wasn't good enough for Barcelona. The Madrid fans chanted "Reina no es un portero, es una chica de cabaret" (Reina is not a keeper, but a Cabaret Girl"), to comment his many mistakes. Through experience he has become much better than Valdes, the current Barcelona keeper.

Carraguer

I discussed it once with Stu. In his opinion he was misused before Rafa, but doesn't experience and a learning player also help?

Gerrard

I think he's a good learner. I think he's clever enough to jump to Spain no matter if he goes to Barcelona and Madrid and adapt. IMHO, he's a better player than 4 years ago.

Sinama Pongolle

For many not good enough, now he's a French international.

So, the opinions I'd like to read from you

* In Which current or past Liverpool players did you see a clear evolution thanks to experience

* What can be improved through experience or a proper teaching manager? What cannot?

* Bearing in mind the previous point, what can we expect of some young players like Babel?

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:30 pm

Still unsure about Reira yet as think too early to tell about him.

I think Pongolle has been the only one who seems to have gone to better things since he has left , not sure sometimes if it wasnt an attitude problem with him .

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:34 pm

Sabre wrote:One of the recurring debates in newkit is when people see a Babel or a Sissoko and say, He'll be the new Viera, or the new John Barnes.

Then someone, generally Stu, points out that player don't become what they're not.

I agree this sentence, but at some extent. There are aspects of football that cannot be improved. Others can.

I remember Toshack in one of his training sessions. He went mad at some point and made a player hit the ball against a wall and bounce it back to improve his control. Controls can be improved with more training. What you cannot develop is more pace when you haven't, or a killing instict when you haven't it. You can't become a player with great vision neither if you aren't.

In that, Stu is right.

But I've seen far too many players evolving into a good player through experience. Experience changes your mindset, makes you learn a lot of things and that's what I want to debate with Stu and everyone else, with some instances:

Riera: Did many members call it wrong? Perhaps not. Perhaps they just described what they saw at that point, and perhaps they just have seen an improved player and a different player.

The Riera that came from Girondins was a different player, and even I think that the Riera that came from his first Manchester City experience, was a different player. You still haven't seen his stong left foot in shooting, but you shall see it. And that's something I didn't see him using in the early stages of his career. The composure with the ball, and having a "clear mind" to not lose the ball is something he has improved. He'll never be fast though.

Reina

This keeper wasn't good enough for Barcelona. The Madrid fans chanted "Reina no es un portero, es una chica de cabaret" (Reina is not a keeper, but a Cabaret Girl"), to comment his many mistakes. Through experience he has become much better than Valdes, the current Barcelona keeper.

Carraguer

I discussed it once with Stu. In his opinion he was misused before Rafa, but doesn't experience and a learning player also help?

Gerrard

I think he's a good learner. I think he's clever enough to jump to Spain no matter if he goes to Barcelona and Madrid and adapt. IMHO, he's a better player than 4 years ago.

Sinama Pongolle

For many not good enough, now he's a French international.

So, the opinions I'd like to read from you

* In Which current or past Liverpool players did you see a clear evolution thanks to experience

* What can be improved through experience or a proper teaching manager? What cannot?

* Bearing in mind the previous point, what can we expect of some young players like Babel?

Players attributes don't improve with age. Players don't even become something they aren't. They can learn systems, learn how to play in a particular system, become well drilled and become more confident and get to know their team mates better but they do not improve attributes. Occassionally they will physically develop late, but thats about as far it goes. Its what happened with Stevie and Ronaldo. If you compare Gerrard and Carragher now, to what they were, they still have the same weaknesses and strengths. Stevie still (at 28) has a tendancy to hit long passes that aren't on, 10 years after pointing this out you'd think one of the top five players in the world would correct this...

If they could, every player would get on the pitch and work on ever aspect of their game. Players who spend hours trying to improve and are really determined to improve would improve.

It will never happen, it has never happened. You either have that attribute, or you don't. You don't gain it, you don't learn it after your development stage. End of.

Players like Babel, Lucas, Sissoko etc can be given all the time in the world to adapt. They will never be good enough.

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:37 pm

Stu, I've seen defenders that when they were 26, you could catch them breaking the off side line 30 times a season. I've seen the same players getting that right with 30.

I've seen a player losing pace with age, but when pressed, having more composure, being less nervous with the ball, getting that decissions right. It's not attributes, it's decissions, and sometimes mate, you take wiser decissions when 29 rather than 21. And ONLY with better decissions you can become you a much better football player -- if you're a good learner.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:38 pm

Sabre wrote:So, the opinions I'd like to read from you

* In Which current or past Liverpool players did you see a clear evolution thanks to experience

* What can be improved through experience or a proper teaching manager? What cannot?

* Bearing in mind the previous point, what can we expect of some young players like Babel?

1. Carragher, gained confidence and found a position which he's settled into in a system which has suited him from day one. He's well drilled, knows the system inside out and has benefitted from playing alongside Sami over the years.

2. No attributes can be improved by training, if they could everyone do it. You gain a consistency by training and it helps you keep the same level, but you develop a natural ability from a young age which is kind of your limit in a particular area. Players will never exceed that limit. Players can learn systems and about other players and find out what other players are good at. IE you aren't going to ask Keane to chase long balls, where as Torres you might.

3. Nothing other than he's done already. Not good enough, never will be.

by **radun5** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:41 pm

Like Sabre, I partially agree with Stu on this one. Clearly there are some attributes that are very hard, if not impossible, to improve (you are more or less born with them). I would name at least speed, acceleration, jumping, vision, physical presence, stamina.

There are also some attributes that can be improved in time: IMHO inexperience will affect mainly keepers and defenders, because it affects the highly important positioning attribute. Also there are players that mature late, so their morale and psychology can change in time and make them much better players.

About ball control and technique, however, I believe that there is space for improvement, but not much. If you lack it after three years of professional football, you won't change much after that, no matter how much you train and who your coach is. But this is only my two pence, if Toshack used that method in training with mature players, maybe he had proof it was effective.

Good thread but I fear sooner or later it will explode in a fight between certain members.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:42 pm

Sabre wrote:Stu, I've seen defenders that when they were 26, you could catch them breaking the off side line 30 times a season. I've seen the same players getting that right with 30.

I've seen a player losing pace with age, but when pressed, having more composure, being less nervous with the ball, getting that decissions right. It's not attributes, it's decissions, and sometimes mate, you take wiser decissions when 29 rather than 21. And ONLY with better decissions you can become you a much better football player -- if you're a good learner.

Disagree with you. That composure is already there in that player. They don't develop it. Decisions on a pitch aren't always black and white. IE if Torres picks the ball up, 40 yards out then chooses not to hold it up and smacks on in the back of the net then its the right decision. You keep banging on about defenders. Its rubbish Sabre, you either have it in the first place, or you don't.

Everything effects everything in football. If you have a team mate next to you that shouts time, it can bring you extra composure in a situation. There are millions of different tiny little things. Confidence isn't ability, completely different things.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:44 pm

Fo Dne wrote:3. Nothing other than he's done already. Not good enough, never will be.

So, Stu, are you saying that there's no system that we could deploy to get the best out of Babel? If attributes aren't improved upon but drilling players in a system that suits their strengths can get more from them, is there not some way we can maximize Babel's potential? Or, IYO, is he so poor as to not warrant that kind of attention?

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:45 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:45 pm

Rio is another player who has developed and learnt through age and experience.

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:46 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

And yet he's essentially been turned into a forward/wide player in a front three since going to Chelsea. At West Ham he was being lined up as the new Gazza as an attacking central midfielder.

For what it's worth, if he'd been used as a central midfielder then Lampard would never have got a sniff of being in the England side in that position imo.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:46 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

Right, and I should trust your judgement. Boumsong, Cheyrou, Cisse,Prutton etc..

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:46 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:3. Nothing other than he's done already. Not good enough, never will be.

So, Stu, are you saying that there's no system that we could deploy to get the best out of Babel? If attributes aren't improved upon but drilling players in a system that suits their strengths can get more from them, is there not some way we can maximize Babel's potential? Or, IYO, is he so poor as to not warrant that kind of attention?

He's brain dead, his touch isn't good enough and he's a lazy waster. He's not upto it, we should cash in now as we'll still get a fair wack for him.

by **Owzat** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:47 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

I agree the second one is, because fat frank cost £11m

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lampard

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