Todays team selection. - Styling or sensible?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Rush Job » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:35 am

bigmick wrote:Now when you've been around this place for a while, you can almost sense that people are about to say something. Just like I've no doubt people can "sense" what i'm going to say as I'm annoyingly repetitive, I can sense it's only a matter of time before someone says "FFS I don't believe this place, we win and still som people are fecking moaning!!!!".

It's a fair point, but just so's people know, I certainly don't moan about stuff exclusively when we lose. On the contrary, I'll happily have a wee winge when we win as well   :p

At least your consistant mate.  :D
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Postby bigmick » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:35 am

Rush Job wrote:TBH i dont think we did get lucky, i think we got what we deserved. Citeh had two chances (one of which was a free kick) and scored them both.
We not only scored more but we missed two open goals (Kuyt,Torres) and could have got a pen if the ref was up with play.
Would people be saying it was lucky if we put the two "easy" chances away and won 5  2? Let alone the pen chance.

Rushie I think we got out of jail (rather than got lucky) and in this sense, it's purely because we came from two behind then got a late winner. To my mind, even if we were absolutley all over them and hit the post six times, if you come back from 2-0 down and win it in the last minute, you got out of jail.

Lucky though is another question. The sending off probably came at the perfect time for us, and we got the winning goal in the nick of time but yes probably lucky isn't the right word.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:36 am

bigmick wrote:Now when you've been around this place for a while, you can almost sense that people are about to say something. Just like I've no doubt people can "sense" what i'm going to say as I'm annoyingly repetitive, I can sense it's only a matter of time before someone says "FFS I don't believe this place, we win and still som people are fecking moaning!!!!".

It's a fair point, but just so's people know, I certainly don't moan about stuff exclusively when we lose. On the contrary, I'll happily have a wee winge when we win as well   :p

We know mate, believe me.......... we know  :D
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Postby tonyeh » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:46 am

Rush Job wrote:
tonyeh wrote:
Rush Job wrote:
tonyeh wrote:
bigmick wrote:As the rotation debate has meandered along and gone through various peaks and troughs, one thing has become clear and is pretty much universally accepted I think.

That is, it's not just the number of changes to the team which is important, it's the nature of them. Switching Aurelio and Dossena for instance, though a step backwards in my opinion is obviously not the same in terms of impact as switching Torres and N'Gog.

So what of today? Only one switch from the last game so not syling? Well, we decided to play a different formation from the one we have settled into. We decided to change the position the captain has been playing in, and been playing quite well in too. We decided to sit down a fella who had just scored his first goal, and to give both Alonso and Torres new partners.

Right decision or wrong decision, and did we just slightly get out of jail? What do you reckon, was it a worrying glimpse of an urge to tinker which simply cannot be surpressed, despite the light clearly being seen? Are we going to give ourselves a shot at the title or not?

Aside from what anyone thinks on that score, I think most would agree we are into the guts of the campaign now. Chelsea and Man Utd have settled down and are in the mode where a draw away at West Ham would see Zola dancing on the touchline. We absolutely must try and keep ourselves in the rattle right now, we are out of the blocks and there is a good early pace on. No time for fecking up, and I would venture fecking about either.

Rafa must have nicked all of the "Get out of jail cards" from his Monopoly box today. I couldn't believe he was playing one striker up front espcially after coming off of two decent games with the 4-4-2 he's been nurturing. A 4-4-2 that was starting to look good too.

Any team, IMO, who's playing with a single striker are on to a loser in the modern game and Rafa should damn well know that. it may have worked for a few games last year, but I reckon the other sides in the Prem have been studying Torres...hard...and they may have the measure of him this season. Opposing teams have been locking down on Fernando and doing it well, I may add. City, today, had 2 or 3 lads on him at all times. There was nowhere he could go to get a bit of space. But they could afford too. Liverpool have no-one else up there to get goals.

Also, you only have to look at Torres' goals this season, I think they all involve breaking down the opposition's defence using multiple strikers.

It's common sense, AFAIK, that using more than one man up front is bound to force the defence to divide their attention. Robbie may not get 20 goals this year, but what he will do is draw off defenders and allow Torres to get into the little bit of space that he needs. Torres only needs the smallest amount of time to do his magic. But without somebody else worrying the defenders, he won't get that time.

I hope Rafa understands this from today's game, which could have been a very different result. I agree with you big lad, it does seem that Rafa has an irresistible urge to mess around with things, when he should just leave things alone.


So its gone from people saying Torres doesnt need and cant play with a strike partner too he cant play effectively on his own. :laugh:

"Any team, IMO,who`s playing with a single striker are on to a loser in the modern game and Rafa should damn well know that".

Sure about that mate? Because we had our best run of last season with one up front and Torres didnt do bad did he? And what about chelsea with Drogba?
And Spain won the euro final with one up front, guess who scored the winner. :D
No mate i think we all now Torres can be effective on his own with support from deep, what we dont yet know for sure is, can he be as effective playing up with Keane? I think yes but we`ll have to wit and see.

I, for one, have never said that Torres didn't "need a strike partner".  In fact, last season, I was advocating starting Babel up front with him for a few games.

The single striker up front may have worked somewhat last year, when Torres was a new boy, but I don't think that's going to wash this time around. Teams have had all summer to understand him.

Frankly, I don't care what kind of a run Liverpool had with a single striker last year. This year will be different. I said at the beginning of the season that Torres will be kicked around the pitch this season and that he'll find it very difficult to find the form he struck last year, if he was to carry the can up front on his own again.

As far as Chelsea and Drogba are concerned, they have Lampard, Cole, Ballack and Deco in their side, all of who are very good at feeding balls to Drogba and not saps when it comes to getting a few goals themselves...

...Liverpool have, um, Gerrard.

Besides, Chelsea are just a far stronger team than Liverpool. There's not getting around that.

No, I am very much of the opinion that Torres will benefit from a strike partner this year, for the reasons given in my last post.


So any team playing a single striker is "on to a loser in the modern game", unless your chelsea?

Well....yes :)

It works well for Chelsea, because they have others in the team that are strong providers and are goal getters themselves. They don't just rely on Drogba for all their goals.

It won't be that easy for Liverpool, because with one striker up top, they're back to Torres'n'Gerrard FC, with everything down the middle of the park and being very easy to defend against.

Liverpool aren't Chelsea, they just don't have that strength in the mid section.

Maybe "Any team...onto a loser" is a bit of an overstatement, but, playing one up makes things difficult if you haven't got strong support from more than just one other player.

Liverpool relying on one man to get all their goals is just plain silly.
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Postby Rush Job » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:46 am

s@int wrote:
Rush Job wrote:TBH i dont think we did get lucky, i think we got what we deserved. Citeh had two chances (one of which was a free kick) and scored them both.
We not only scored more but we missed two open goals (Kuyt,Torres) and could have got a pen if the ref was up with play.
Would people be saying it was lucky if we put the two "easy" chances away and won 5  2? Let alone the pen chance.

We also had 66% possession, 7 corners to their 1, and 16 shots compared to 6. Hardly getting thrashed were we ?

I know mate we bossed the game apart from two silly mistakes.
I think our good second half was more down to a change in attitude (Rafa called it mentality) in the second half than it was down to a personel/formation switch.
We came out as a team in the second half and the fullbacks got forward more, that had nothing to do with formation.
Was it not a change TOO one up front that got us the points agaist boro?
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Postby Rush Job » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:54 am

bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:TBH i dont think we did get lucky, i think we got what we deserved. Citeh had two chances (one of which was a free kick) and scored them both.
We not only scored more but we missed two open goals (Kuyt,Torres) and could have got a pen if the ref was up with play.
Would people be saying it was lucky if we put the two "easy" chances away and won 5  2? Let alone the pen chance.

Rushie I think we got out of jail (rather than got lucky) and in this sense, it's purely because we came from two behind then got a late winner. To my mind, even if we were absolutley all over them and hit the post six times, if you come back from 2-0 down and win it in the last minute, you got out of jail.

Lucky though is another question. The sending off probably came at the perfect time for us, and we got the winning goal in the nick of time but yes probably lucky isn't the right word.

Yes sorry mate, its just it seemed you were implying we were lucky to "get out of jail", rather that we got out but we deserved to. :)
Last edited by Rush Job on Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:54 am

Rush Job wrote:
s@int wrote:
Rush Job wrote:TBH i dont think we did get lucky, i think we got what we deserved. Citeh had two chances (one of which was a free kick) and scored them both.
We not only scored more but we missed two open goals (Kuyt,Torres) and could have got a pen if the ref was up with play.
Would people be saying it was lucky if we put the two "easy" chances away and won 5  2? Let alone the pen chance.

We also had 66% possession, 7 corners to their 1, and 16 shots compared to 6. Hardly getting thrashed were we ?

I know mate we bossed the game apart from two silly mistakes.
I think our good second half was more down to a change in attitude (Rafa called it mentality) in the second half than it was down to a personel/formation switch.
We came out as a team in the second half and the fullbacks got forward more, that had nothing to do with formation.
Was it not a change TOO one up front that got us the points agaist boro?

Spot on Rushie, also against Sunderland and Liege too mate.
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Postby Rush Job » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:57 am

s@int wrote:
Rush Job wrote:
s@int wrote:
Rush Job wrote:TBH i dont think we did get lucky, i think we got what we deserved. Citeh had two chances (one of which was a free kick) and scored them both.
We not only scored more but we missed two open goals (Kuyt,Torres) and could have got a pen if the ref was up with play.
Would people be saying it was lucky if we put the two "easy" chances away and won 5  2? Let alone the pen chance.

We also had 66% possession, 7 corners to their 1, and 16 shots compared to 6. Hardly getting thrashed were we ?

I know mate we bossed the game apart from two silly mistakes.
I think our good second half was more down to a change in attitude (Rafa called it mentality) in the second half than it was down to a personel/formation switch.
We came out as a team in the second half and the fullbacks got forward more, that had nothing to do with formation.
Was it not a change TOO one up front that got us the points agaist boro?

Spot on Rushie, also against Sunderland and Liege too mate.

And with that in mind wheres the problem? :D
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Postby LiverpoolMadman » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:07 am

I just don't know where to start ... When I see the selection, in my mind say " there'e he goes again .... why ?? why he never learn?? Why he been neg ? ....etc "

Bottom line : We are lucky and Rafa still never learn.
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Postby Rush Job » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:11 am

LiverpoolMadman wrote:I just don't know where to start ... When I see the selection, in my mind say " there'e he goes again .... why ?? why he never learn?? Why he been neg ? ....etc "

Bottom line : We are lucky and Rafa still never learn.

And in English?  :p
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:35 am

s@int wrote:
bigmick wrote:We're getting caught up in simialr grounds which bogged us down last season here. Obviously Torres can play on his own up front, Gerrard can play in behind him, we can play 4-5-1, Masherano is a top player and all that stuff. I'd be surprised if anyone denies any of it. The point though surely is that having spent the last 2/3 of last season playing 4-5-1, we bought a bloke for 20 million quid about two months ago in order to let us play 4-4-2. Now by common consent he started slowly as did the whole team as we struggled to come to terms with the adjustments. Over the last couple of weeks though, we've kind of looked like we've started get our heads around it a bit. The said 20 million quid bloke got himself a goal, and made a couple of goals and it was all starting to look peachy. Until we decided to change it, wrongly in my view.

I understand your point Mick and its not as if you change your opinion game to game, you have been pretty constant mate. :D

I do think however that for certain games you have to make tactical changes. I think that Rafa was expecting Robinho to play off Jo and wanted Masch to keep him quiet, or maybe even Elano?

I am not saying he is right, what I am saying is, I think I understand his reasons, I agreed with them before the game so I am not going to start criticising him after the game. 

I know it would be nice to play the same team (not the same 11 every game) and the same formation, but sometimes you have to make the odd change.

saint I kicked off about this last year. To be fair we shouldn't be worrying about what city are doing, we should have Hughes saying Liverpool will come here 442 with their strongest team, let them worry about us rather than nulify our threat in an effort to nulify theirs. Why weaken ourselves? It doesnt make sense. We weakened ourselves many times last season to counter lesser teams and it cost us.

Of course in this case it wasn't a case of putting in weaker players, mash is anything but weak, but we changed a working formula. Thank god for torres that we pulled it off
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Postby Bam » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:57 am

Firstly, I cant be bothered to post in the Man.C thread so I'll show my appreciation for the lads character in here ............... That was fecking brilliant to stage a comeback like that ! We looked down and out of that game with 45 minutes gone by, and without (apart from a Kuyt miss) any real opportunities on goal. Again, that was fecking fantastic and eventually rightly won.

Back on topic, with foresight and even hindsight I'd say it was styling definately. Firstly if your a striker and playing in Red jersey and score a goal for Liverpool these days, you'd pretty much guarentee yourself a place on the bench for the next game, no wonder Kuyt never scores, although he may not start next week :D

Seriously though, Rafa has totally different ideas to the way the average British joe would go about selecting his teams. Like many I advocated in keeping the same side that has been in tremendous form over the first part of the season. Whether its a winning formula or not though Rafa always see's it different.

Rafa has said in the past that he likes his players to able to switch from one formation to another, which in theory is a good idea I suppose. But like yeterday showed putting that into practise isnt easy, Gerrard who I liked in that position last season, mainly because he had the time to become accustomed to that role played superbly. But reverting back to that today the captain was pretty much anonimus (sp) throughout the game. He didnt impose himself on the game nearly as much as he did against Everton the otherweek IMO. Give him five games in that position and I'd almost guarentee you he'd be firing on all cylinders. Its the intial change in style, going from 442 to 4231 that the players will find it hard to adjust with.

I think ....... Sorry I'll re-phrase that, I know its a very risky and dangerous thing to do when you tinker with your team like taht. I just fear that we've built up ahead of steam, and Rafa in all likelyness can be the man to undone all the hard work the lads have done on the field.
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Postby Espionage » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:19 am

s@int wrote:
Rush Job wrote:TBH i dont think we did get lucky, i think we got what we deserved. Citeh had two chances (one of which was a free kick) and scored them both.
We not only scored more but we missed two open goals (Kuyt,Torres) and could have got a pen if the ref was up with play.
Would people be saying it was lucky if we put the two "easy" chances away and won 5  2? Let alone the pen chance.

We also had 66% possession, 7 corners to their 1, and 16 shots compared to 6. Hardly getting thrashed were we ?

I agree with you Saint. Man city could consider themselves pretty lucky to go in a half time 2-0 up against us. They really didnt look that dangerous as we starting so dominantly (even away from home)

Did we get out of jail? yeah maybe, but we were so unlucky to be in there to begin with that it almost cancels it out.
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Postby NiftyNeil » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:35 am

I missed the match yesterday due to work. I was told that Rafa changed the formation and we were pants first half. After reverting to 4-4-2 in the second half, we got our act together and won the game. However, this wasn't the case. I watched the extended highlights last night on football first. I thought City were second best throughout the game and were extremely lucky to be 2 goals ahead at half time. I think the formation worked well in the first half and we should of been ahead. Like someone has already said, we started off well in the second half with the same formation and scored a crucial early goal - and the second was from a corner. I think Rafa got it right, but a few individual (player) errors have put him under Big Mick's microscope again.
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Postby Espionage » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:42 am

On the topic of the team selection, I think that Rafa tries to include Masch in games where he is worried about small crafty players up front or wide. When we go forward we use our fullbacks for width and Masch effectively becomes a CB or close to it with the 2 CB playing on either side of him (but that is only when the other team breaks on a counterattack). Otherwise we play a normal formation with a flat 4 and Masch plays more of a Makalele role freeing up the other CM.

I really dont see what is so negative about playing Masch, Alonso was not playing defensive and we were controlling the game. Our last ball was a bit lacking but we were in good shape besides a few errors that we usually dont make. I cant remember off the top of my head the last time that Reina was beaten like that from a direct free kick either...

Also I thought that Rafa got it spot on with the second half subs. Most people wanted Keane on early, but Rafa saw that we were doing really well in the second half and stayed with what we had because it was working. There is no guarantee that changing the system would have been any better, infact, people often blame Rafa for fixing things that are not broken. He kept his players on the pitch that were doing well, and made the subs just to make a few changes and get of tired legs.

I honestly think that people should think of something else to talk about because he is always spot on, I mean always. No one can predict the future, but what Rafa gets paid to do is to make better decisions over the course of the season then any of us could.

Im glad that he is in charge
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