Liverpool FC Forum

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:11 pm

All the happy clappers over the last few days have left me asking the question, what do they think is wrong?

We haven't challenged for a league title under Benitez, only once, to my mind anyway have we looked an excellent side (back in 2005/2006). Instead of then building on that side major changes were made to both style and personel and now finally we look like we could be a couple of players off getting to that level once more.

I think in Reina we have one of the leagues best keepers. We have 4 centre halfs of pretty much equal ability, none of which are top class but could definately form a top class partnership with the right player if he was brought in. I think both full back area's are weak, the left back being the stronger of the two as Aurelio can actually pass a ball and offers some sort of attacking threat.

In midfield, Gerrard and Alonso are quality and with Mascherano as back up there's absoloutely no problems there (apart from when Lucas is used). Riera has added balance and intelligence to the left side and upfront Keane and Torres are more than good enough.

Now, what confuses me, is in my opinion, we lack a top centre half, a top right back and a good right sided player. But I keep hearing how good our centre backs, Arbeloa and Kuyt are. The reason this confuses me as I see all of these as clear weaknesses and people are telling me these players are upto it.

So if they are upto it, am I overating Torres, Alonso, Gerrard, Reina, Reira, Carragher, Mascherano and the rest? Where are the problems? Why don't we ever put together a title challenge? Are all the players good enough and its the manager?

For my mind, the manager costs us maybe 6-8 points a season by :censored:

around with the team when he shouldn't. But that doesn't make up the other amount of points we end up behind the winners eventually.

I do rate Benitez as a coach and a tactician, as a manager I'm not sure. His signings have been in large poor. Obviously there are exceptions, but he's wasted alot of money on players that aren't upto it, he also though makes to many erratic decisions and wrong ones with regards to team selection andwith regards to his best players.

In terms of analysing a game and reading the flow of the game and being able to alter the pattern of play I think he's the best around, I just feel the basics sometimes elude him.

Back to the players:

Keane Torres
Reira Alonso Gerrard ? ? ? ?
Aurelio ? ? ? ? Carragher ? ? ? ?
Reina

That looks like a potentially top class team. You could put Pennant on the right, or Mascherano in the middle and Gerrard on the right and the team would still be classy.

I'd love us to go and sign Richards in the summer as a statement of intent. He would cost a bomb but I think we could get him if we were persistent. I also think we'd then have the best right back in the league, going from a position of having one of the worst full backs in the top half of the prem, to unquestionabley the best would benefit the team immensely.

by **tubby** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:19 pm

Seeing as Man City are the new money bags I doubt Richards would want to go anywhere full well knowing he will soon be joined by more and more top class talent come the summer. We should have tried for him a few years back but we missed our chance (something we seem to do a lot when looking to sign players).

Defensivley I think we are sorted more or less. I think right now we have conceded the least number goals so far?

Anyway I think the main problem is the inability to carv out chances and goals when we want to. Not just from open play either, we are terrible from set pieces for the most part.

by **RedRoots** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:26 pm

Our full-backs are shocking at times, almost embarrasing when you look at what United, Arsenal and Chelsea have. I like Aurelio but he's too injury prone.

edit: Another thing, Can you honestly see City letting Richards go? Maybe if they were strapped for cash witch we all know they aint.

by **metalhead** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:28 pm

I doubt getting Richards stu, as Bav said, Man city have new owners with alot of cash, so I don't think they will be willing to sell Richards, unless Man city don't change in the footballing front.

I think, temporarily, until we get a quality right midfielder, we move Gerrard on the right or play pennant there. Kuyt's attitude, work rate and everything about his mentality is amazing, but he isn't a right winger, he is a striker, and a good back up striker. As for a top center half, yes Stu we all agree that we need someone whose aerially dominant and can distribute the ball well, how many times do you have to tell us FFS!

I saw Rafinha(The right back) the other day and he looks good, we were interested in him, I think we should go for him.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:39 pm

On paper, whats wrong is nothing.

Your (Stu) system of rating players is entirely your own, and good luck to you with that. But I must disagree on a few things....

Centre Half's

Between Agger, Carra and Skrtel we can produce a centre half pairing better than everyone else in the league bar United and Chelsea. However in the same breath, as far as depth is concerned I feel that once you lose Carvalho/Terry or Ferdinand/Vidic they are weaker than us in that we have three of the same level of ability. Hyyppia is better back up to those three than either of the members of the top four have got in my opinion. So for me there is no problem with the bentre halves.

Full Back

I feel we could do with more attacking players, when I look at the quality of Evra, Bosingwa and Cole. However in our system that Rafa employs attacking full backs are not as important as the front four/five are so fluid in their movement that anyone of them can bomb on at anytime. So for me I dont think the full backs create as much of a problem.

Rafa changing costing points

As for the Rafa losing us points through tinkering, he hasnt this season, and I personaly beleive thats cus he is more trusting of the quality of the players he has at his disposal that he doesnt feel the need to. We will see if he does in the future, but I feel he wont.

Richards

He will be a centre half in due course, thats for sure, so as for having hte best right back in the country I am not sure. For me Bosingwa fits that bill.

But its all about opinions . . . .

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:46 pm

Masher as back up ? the guy is a starter ahead of xabi for the majority of the time.

Weak areas - Right side in a 442 (kuyt doing a decent job at the moment but in some games we need something different but certainly not pennant)

only other area at the moment is fullbacks- Jury still out on dossena- looks decent going forward if not a bit dodgy defending but still plenty of time for him. Fabio is made of glass. Right side Arbeloa seems to be playing a bit better these days but not sure about degen.

On paper the thing that is wrong is goal difference has us at second but things are not that bad at the moment with our squad looking better in terms of whats available than the others due to injuries - we are missing degen
mancs

scholes,carrick, possibly rooney

chavs

drogba,deco,cole,carvahlo possibly terry.

at the moment things arent perfect but they arent bad at - more positive than negative.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:52 pm

phillip degen should be given the chance once he is fit. how about playing with 3 centrbacks? in a 3-4-2-1 formation? or 3-5-2?

otherwise, we can createa young clone of Willy Sagnol

by **Ben1988** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:53 pm

or you could put kuyt on the right

no but seriously our weak link is the right flank. Kuyt isnt good enough to play right wing in a four man midfield, for all or his hard work, determination.... he isnt a winger. But i feel gerrard needs to play in the centre. Right back is the worst of the two the right. I think a purchase is needed in January, I wouldn't no who, and id leave it up 2 Rafa anyway.

Like you i have been a little worried by some of his buys... but aggger and skrtle look good, reira is deinately a gr8 asset. he has bought some poor players, but also some class with them three put torres keane reina garcia kuyt

lol amongst others. Hopefully he will get it right, but now isnt time for transfer talk it is about what we have now and how we use it.

In terms of formation I would like to garrard playing right in a 451 and play keane as the attacking playmaking midfielder. may be not.... i duno

im just happy at the moment bcos we look like a good unit and i am optimistic about the rest of the season... and i do think we have a chance at the title.

I disagree about rotaion, that is a different thread... we do need to rotate... maybe it goes wrong everynow and then but if we cant realy on the squad players to do the job we cannot simply play our best 11 every game, it isnt possible..

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:57 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:phillip degen should be given the chance once he is fit. how about playing with 3 centrbacks? in a 3-4-2-1 formation? or 3-5-2?

otherwise, we can createa young clone of Willy Sagnol

can never see the need of playing three cbs - most teams these days only play with the one guy up front so three cbs is a bit overkill.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:13 pm

I think you make some good points Stu, but into the mix I think you have to include underperformance against poor teams. While I agree we have struggled against the best sides because we have areas where we can't compete, we have lost a lot of points against poor opposition both through draws and defeats. Usually because we fail to take our chances but also because once we have taken the lead we don't try hard enough to seal the game but rely on our defence to carry us through.

In other words I wonder whether we have been mentally tough enough at times. How many games have we really only started to play when the opposition scores, rather than going out to take the game by the scruff of the neck from the first whistle. While when we take the lead, rather than using it as a base to go and get more, we sit back until the opposition realise they are in with a chance and start to attack us.

Back to players, I think we have a few big decisions to make this season.... when and if certain players hit form, Masch or Alonso, Agger or Skrtel being perhaps the most talked about but actually being less important imo (because they are all good players),than Kuyt or Pennant, Dossena or Aurelio and Babel or Riera.

I think we have almost achieved a reasonable balance this season, my main worry is the right hand side, where we lack any sort of penetration. So while I would be careful not to make wholesale changes I think there is still room to "tweak" the team and make improvements.

If at Christmas we sign Owen and a Right back I think we would be well on our way, throw in a top class right midfielder and I think we will be celebrating in May.

by **redmikey** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:25 pm

sign owen . saint that will churn up some well flogged debate. i would love it but just can't see rafa forgiving owen for giving him the bird at the start of his reign

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:25 pm

pretty much all summer I was saying send Arbeloa and Xabi to Real Madrid in a swap for Sergio Ramos. Safe to say, I think that would solve a lot of our problems

Stu I liked your post a lot, well thought out, you explained yourself with words in a clear argument and didn't call anyone a retard. Any specific suggestions for who we should get to partner Carra? Mertesacker? Or who you would want to replace Kuyt if it wasn't Gerrard or Pennant?

Also, we probably have the same chance of getting Richards from City as we do getting Ramos from Madrid.

And as far as Owen is concerned, I think some of that will depend on who takes the club over, who they hire as manager, and how much money they throw at Owen and the rest of the team. (of course nearly the same could be said about our club)

by **Ben1988** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:27 pm

Is that how people see it? i always thought Rafa gave him the bird, as u so brilliantly put it.

could you elighten me?

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:41 pm

I think we honestly do have some good centre backs and we don't need anymore centre backs unless we sign someone who's aerially dominant like hypia . As for playing pennant , i'm sorry stu , he's a waste of space, very bad attitude , can rarely put a good cross in and for me kuyt is better there , chases back for the ball , which pennant rarely does , kuyt also gets in some good crosses and gets his fair share of goals , which again pennant only has 2 , and kuyt has hit 11 in total last season from the right wing postion , more than pennant has and he's a natural right winger . As for Our preferred central midfield pairing , if stevie is willing to play on the right , than masch and xabi in the middle if not , for me it will be masch and gerrard .

I do however share a similar point with you , we have 2 weak full backs , aurelio is decent but not world class , dossena is still unproven so for now aurelio will do . As for the right back , arbeloa is a squad player at best , should not be starting at a top 4 club unless there are injuries . I can't see us getting richards as city owners will never sell now and richards plays CENTRE BACK for city , he does not have the ability to dribble if played at right back , he can overlap well but again he can't put in maginificent crosses and for 20 and above million i think there are better options out there like rafinha who can beat his man , can put in crosses and has a good shot as well , would probably cost us around 15 million at most

by **skatesy** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:57 pm

I agree with the general consensus here that our CBs are going in the right direction. The trio of Carragher, Skrtel and Agger is a good setup. Furthermore, I have been very happy with Skrtel and I think he is someone who is going to develop into an even more class CB. I agree that our fullbacks are, at times, poor and that is something to work on in the future. However, every team has their weakpoints. Luckily, it is not a major problem.

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