Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:36 pm

Stu has said that he'd change Pennant for Kuyt. I don't want to make the question with names of players, because I know Pennant is not the flavour of the month. IMHO Pennant at his best would be a valid option, but a questions: Pennant is a winger, not a RM

We haven't played more than two games under Rafa with two real wide players, do you think it's viable to keep or defensive solidness WITH two pure wingers? I mean, if you play a player that won't tackle much, won't that expose Arbeloa? Considering that Gerrard tries and succeeds in getting to the oppo box often, holding all the team of two wingers, and a midfielder like Gerrard with a single holding midfielder it would be a bit risky, IMHO.

I'm sure we'd score more goals than now, but we'd also concede more, and definitely much of our style would change, and right now it's working.

I still preffer playing Riera in the left, and a Very good right midfielder in the right. I'd be happy with an ARteta if you see what I mean, he's good. We have the option of Gerrard, who's miles better than Arteta and he's world class, for me that's the best option. Note that I'd like the debate around "types" of players, not to talk about Pennant only.

I'd only use Stu's option, Riera+Pennant (that is, two pure wingers), under one striker.

Your opinions?

P.S. To the question "don't you consider Kuyt" a winger player, I'd say no, because he works and tackles more than the typical Riera, Silva or Pennant, I think Kuyt does a good job protecting Arbeloa.

by **Owzat** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:42 pm

I don't think Riera and Pennant will score enough goals to work under one striker, that's my initial reaction/feeling/response. I'd let Pennant loose on the weaker sides, the ones we expect to have lots of possession against and little defensive work. I think Kuyt and Babel offer more goalscoring threat and so I'd play them in a one up front formation ahead of Riera and Pennant. For starters they might cross more, but aiming at only one main target.

I hope next season we'll sign a decent winger to replace Pennant and rival Kuyt, we can't spend £20m+ on a striker for a third consecutive season surely. Although Rafa may still angle after a certain villa player, maybe a 'test the water' £18m bid for Young would be better

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:59 pm

Personally I'm a big fan of wide players. (Apart from Fat Frankie).

I think I've already talked about my preference for a genuine wide midfielder on both sides when playing 4-4-2, my caveat to that would be that Keane and Torres have to be playing well together as a pairing (assuming they'd be the 2 up front) - and whilst there are early signs showing, I still wouldn't suggest that they are [I]just[/I yet.

It's clear that Rafa is considering 4-4-2 as one of the tactical options we can use, and if that's the case, I don't want the likes of Kuyt there - I want somebody who will naturally use the full width of the pitch and wants to be out there, whether it's Pennant or somebody else. They need to be able to take a ball on the run, and stretch the opposition defence, with pace and control - again without getting into names, the jury will be out on whether Pennant can do that I'm sure.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:24 pm

Pennant is not good enough and is not a better option than Kuyt.

Kuyt is not ideal at right midfield, but is the best wwe have there (other than Gerrard).

To wide men would be great, but Torres, KEne and Kuyt move round much better between the three of them as Kuyt and KEane make lots of space for Torres and each otehr iwth thier incredible work rates and intelligent running.

I firmly beleive (although I didnt when I heard of his signing) that KEane in tandem wwith Torres and Kuty could provide the missing link between midfield and attack we needed.

Add Riera to the mix on the left and one from Gerrard, MAscha, Alonso to the middle and we look formidable.

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:30 pm

Thats spot on mate - lost count the number of times Kuyt filled gaps last night and keane popped out wide to create and vice versa . Kuyt seems to be linking up well with torres and keane and they are all providing chances, scoring and keeping possession as well as defending from the front . like you say add reira into the mix it looks a balanced front four going forward and defending . and pennant certainly wouldnt imporve things at all cause the movement wouldnt be the same.

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:30 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I firmly beleive (although I didnt when I heard of his signing) that KEane in tandem wwith Torres and Kuty could provide the missing link between midfield and attack we needed.

Not about the topic, but a good point, and a good point is a good point.

You've seen how Rafa has made strikers like Morientes, Kuyt and Keane working outside the box.

IMHO, Keane is better than his predecessors in this work, he seeks for the ball there where the CB doesn't follow him, and he manages more often than not to reach before the DM to touch a ball, because he seeks it well. It's easier to pass to Keane than to Morientes because he anticipates better. Morientes was decent holding an oppo player backwards, but IMHO this ability of Keane has helped a lot so that our midfielders look a bit better.

So a good deal of Alonso looking like a different player, is thanks to the Irish man IMHO.

Add Riera to the mix on the left and one from Gerrard, MAscha, Alonso to the middle and we look formidable.

Spot on! so much tinkering and choping and we still haven't seen this combination!

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:46 pm

Sabre wrote:I mean, if you play a player that won't tackle much, won't that expose Arbeloa?

Using that argument does that not mean by playing Riera we are exposing Aurelio/Dossena?

I don't think playing wingers (naturally wide men) necessarily exposes the full backs, after all it is often said the best form of defence is attack. Additionally if it was the case of exposing the full backs when playing wide players why would Rafa do this when our left backs are clearly weaker than our right backs.

I would much prefer a wide man who attempts to provide width at all times and provide an attacking option as it provides so much more for the opposition to consider. By playing a less wide/offensive player on the wings you only invite the opposition full back to join the attack - which in the case of Arsenal (Clichy, Sagna), Chelsea (Cole, Boswinga) and Man Utd (Evra) is potentially fatal.

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:48 pm

Answering your question, yes, but I rate higher Aurelio than Arbeloa (who is playing well as of late, all must be said).

As for the post as a whole, interesting one, that's the kind of thing I want to read here to consider other ideas.

by **taff** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:19 pm

Kuyt works hard and is not as bad as some people say he is although he will never be mistaken for a Brazilian.

But like Leon reckons its about the way the three of them interlink up front

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:21 pm

taff wrote:Kuyt works hard and is not as bad as some people say he is although he will never be mistaken for a Brazilian.

Maybe Lucas...? :oh:

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:26 pm

I think we need to see what a 4-4-2 with Riera and Pennant on the wings looks like. Yes I know we don't want to change for the sake of it, and a lot say that Pennant isn't good enough, and Kuyt has a great work rate, etc. BUT I think we need to at least see how the team plays with that type of player in the mix. Do the wheels fall off without Kuyt working his butt off in the side? OR is there a more consistent flow to our build up with the lack of (hopefully) poor first touches. Are we suddenly capable of breaking with extreme pace that teams cannot deal with?

These are important questions to know the answer to. They can tell us, yes maybe Pennant isn't the answer, but if we just get someone in his mold only better the team will improve, or we can see that Kuyt truely has carved out his own role over there and the chemistry just does not work as well without him.

For the record, City away does not look like the ideal time to try out Pennant.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:36 pm

Sabre wrote:Stu has said that he'd change Pennant for Kuyt. I don't want to make the question with names of players, because I know Pennant is not the flavour of the month. IMHO Pennant at his best would be a valid option, but a questions: Pennant is a winger, not a RM

We haven't played more than two games under Rafa with two real wide players, do you think it's viable to keep or defensive solidness WITH two pure wingers? I mean, if you play a player that won't tackle much, won't that expose Arbeloa? Considering that Gerrard tries and succeeds in getting to the oppo box often, holding all the team of two wingers, and a midfielder like Gerrard with a single holding midfielder it would be a bit risky, IMHO.

I'm sure we'd score more goals than now, but we'd also concede more, and definitely much of our style would change, and right now it's working.

I still preffer playing Riera in the left, and a Very good right midfielder in the right. I'd be happy with an ARteta if you see what I mean, he's good. We have the option of Gerrard, who's miles better than Arteta and he's world class, for me that's the best option. Note that I'd like the debate around "types" of players, not to talk about Pennant only.

I'd only use Stu's option, Riera+Pennant (that is, two pure wingers), under one striker.

Your opinions?

P.S. To the question "don't you consider Kuyt" a winger player, I'd say no, because he works and tackles more than the typical Riera, Silva or Pennant, I think Kuyt does a good job protecting Arbeloa.

I think you're spot on Sabre, I have been saying the same thing myself mate. Very few top teams use 2 wingers unless they only play one up front. The difference for me is they have players that can play the role on the bench to be called on when and if needed. While I think maybe we need someone a little more dependable than Pennant to be called upon when needed. (TBF I am not really sure why he has dropped so far down the pecking order)

I suppose this is where the temptation to play Gerrard on the right comes in, as he gives you the best of both worlds, if/when he his happy there. Defensive reliability with great attacking ability.

I think it was at the back of Rafa's mind when he was after Barry as well. Barry on the left with an attacking right winger. Now we have Riera we need the equivolent of Barry on the right.

by **MASTER** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:50 pm

Sabre wrote:Stu has said that he'd change Pennant for Kuyt. I don't want to make the question with names of players, because I know Pennant is not the flavour of the month. IMHO Pennant at his best would be a valid option, but a questions: Pennant is a winger, not a RM

We haven't played more than two games under Rafa with two real wide players, do you think it's viable to keep or defensive solidness WITH two pure wingers? I mean, if you play a player that won't tackle much, won't that expose Arbeloa? Considering that Gerrard tries and succeeds in getting to the oppo box often, holding all the team of two wingers, and a midfielder like Gerrard with a single holding midfielder it would be a bit risky, IMHO.

I'm sure we'd score more goals than now, but we'd also concede more, and definitely much of our style would change, and right now it's working.

I still preffer playing Riera in the left, and a Very good right midfielder in the right. I'd be happy with an ARteta if you see what I mean, he's good. We have the option of Gerrard, who's miles better than Arteta and he's world class, for me that's the best option. Note that I'd like the debate around "types" of players, not to talk about Pennant only.

I'd only use Stu's option, Riera+Pennant (that is, two pure wingers), under one striker.

Your opinions?

P.S. To the question "don't you consider Kuyt" a winger player, I'd say no, because he works and tackles more than the typical Riera, Silva or Pennant, I think Kuyt does a good job protecting Arbeloa.

This Sabre is surely question of bravery, belief and the guts to see it through because whatever you gain attacking you lose defensively so the game becomes stretched and less structured but would give us more clearcut chances as we saw two seasons back with Kuyt an Crouch playing nearly always with 2 wingers and Stevie in the middle, the DIFFERENCE I think we make more of our chances now and that could allow us to win games easier.

Definitley worth a try at some point.

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:56 pm

two years ago the left was usually someone like Riise, not exactly an out and out winger

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:59 pm

On the issue of Torres, Keane and Kuyt starting to do a lot more interchanging, I think we saw that on Saturday when Kuyt started getting into the box through the middle during our best spell of the second half (was involved in both goals, along with Keane and Torres...obviously). Last night we saw more of the same, only this time it seemed as though the plan was to have Torres pop up on the right touchline a fair bit, with Kuyt working the right channel, Keane in the centre of the area and Riera lurking at the back stick. Obviously a weakness had been identified with respect to their LB and left-most CB because I doubt we would have seen Torres drifting so far away from his usual danger zone otherwise. It's interesting how our attacking shape is developing in these past few games.

Liverpool FC Forum

Playing two wide players - A good option?

Who is online