Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:06 pm

Espionage wrote:I dont think that Rafa has changed in anyway at all. I have always said that when things are not broken Rafa will not try to fix it. Thinking back to mid 2006 when we went on a 9 game winning streak we didnt make any changes to midfield or striker because everything was going fine.

Now that we seem to have a strong obvious starting 11 we dont need to rotate as much because our strongest 11 is more clear cut.

I dont agree mate we have more (but better) choices in a lot of positions than before.

Agger/Skrtel/Hyypia
Mascherano/Alonso/Lucas
Babel/Riera
Aurelio/Dossena
Benayoun/Kuyt/Pennant

Many would argue that the first named are actually the better players, so I don't think its lack of options.

by **Number 9** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:16 pm

Sabre wrote:No, there are not doubts about it.

Now, a question. Why has he changed his mind?

a) He truly has seen that the method won't work in England

or

b) Some important players have said enough is enough, and they have told him not to change the team so much.

If it's a) and he's successful this year, we may have Rafa for a lot of years. If it's b), he'll probably leave the club in summer regardless the success of the team.

I would'nt be surprised if its a combination of both Sabre!
Rafa is a smart man,he analizes everything.Surely he has realized that he overcooked the rotation last season...everyone else has fans,papers,pundits on the TV talked about it in depth.
As for the second point you mention.i would'nt be surprised if players had mentioned they felt it was'nt working.Carra is critical of rotation in his book,Carra does'nt strike me as the type of guy that would hold back if somethings on his mind so I dare say its been discussed!

We wont know for a while yet if he has "seen the light"!

But going by the article from the horses mouth i'd say at the very least he's beginning to..thank fu'ck as well!!

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:30 pm

I can't wait for the posts when we win the league saying, and I quote:

"If Rafa had only done it this/that way sooner, we'd have won more titles..."

Because, as we all know, everyone knows better than Rafa, and no-one is ever happy with what they've got.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:13 pm

Don't have to wait for mine Lando. I don't think we will win the league this season as I don't think we are quite good enough, but I do think if we continue along the lines we are at the moment (in terms of selection policy) we will go very close. As I've said on many many occasions in the past, I am absolutely of the opinion that the team was plenty good enough to challenge for the title in both of the previous two seasons to this one as well. That we didn't is largely because we didn't give ourselves the opportunity to do so with our selection policy.

It's always been something of a a paradox of the rotation debate that those who support the manager 100%, naturally assume that those who don't agree with mass rotation don't. I actually think Rafa has built a much better team than many of the pro-rotationers do. I think the manager has put together a squad of players who are capable of challenging for the title, properly, whereas the pro-rotationers have thought for the last two seasons that the summit of our ambition is third or fourth and a cup run. It has always mystified me somewhat that you get accused of disloyalty to the manager or the club, by voicing an opinion that we are capable of achieving more than we are with the players that he's bought but there you go.

Anyway to summarise, I'll say the same as I have along and the same as I have been saying with regard to the margin as I said towards the end of last season. I think we will finish within six points of the eventual Champions (who I think will be the Mancs) along with Chelsea in a three way dogfight. When I say within six points, I actually think we will be closer than that, perhaps three or four away if we continue to give ourselves a chance.

Usual disclaimers, I'm not saying we should play the same team in every single game, Torres and Gerrard can't play every match etc etc etc etc.

Anyway, no need to wait till the end of the season, some of us have been saying it for four years. What I won't do should we lose matches or fail by not rotating, is accuse the pro-rotationers of being happy that we lost. I've had that for four seasons and I can tell you it's not nice. My opinion is that all Liverpool supporters, regardles of what selection methodology they believe in, want the team to win.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:18 pm

Just as an aside and an extra. Far more likely than people who were "anti's" saying we would have won more titles, will be the pro's saying that it's nothing to do with rotation, and that it would have worked anyway if we had had better players :laugh:

I'm not laughing at the idea of rotation, I'm just laughing at the absolute inevitability of the retort.

Course none of the above will happen. The reality is he will rotate much less and we will get very close to winning the title, but probably blow up Arsenal style towards the end, like as not because either Gerrard or Torres gets injured for a few weeks. Then of course the debate will rage on until next season that in fact he SHOULD have rotated more, that way we'd have been fresher and could have sustained the challenge. That's my guess anyway

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:45 pm

If only Rafa had done it this way sooner , we'd have won more titles

I am pretty sure I know more than Rafa

by **Zidane** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:52 pm

Hope he keeps the starting 11, except for Xabi i'm not convinced and would like to see Masch out there.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:41 pm

Well, if Rafa doesn't rotate, and we win the league, I hope everyone will see the bigger picture of Rafa achieving something we don't along ago and giving him some credit. It would be funny to blame him for not bringing it before!

Cráp teams won't win because they don't rotate, it will necessary mean Rafa has done something well.

P.S. I know S@int that was sarcasm!

just in case, it was an answer to Bigmick, I won't have troubles to say that less rotation helped, but I still won't consider a key factor! lack of rotation doesn't bring titles by itself.

by **metalhead** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:44 pm

s@int wrote:If only Rafa had done it this way sooner , we'd have won more titles

I am pretty sure I know more than Rafa

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:56 pm

Sabre wrote:Well, if Rafa doesn't rotate, and we win the league, I hope everyone will see the bigger picture of Rafa achieving something we don't along ago and giving him some credit. It would be funny to blame him for not bringing it before!

Cráp teams won't win because they don't rotate, it will necessary mean Rafa has done something well.

P.S. I know S@int that was sarcasm! just in case, it was an answer to Bigmick, I won't have troubles to say that less rotation helped, but I still won't consider a key factor! lack of rotation doesn't bring titles by itself.

It would be a very simple game if all you had to do to win the league was pick the same team every week Sabre

I still think we could do with a little more balance down the right, but Souness was saying tonight that Robbie Keane playing up with Torres has helped Gerrard to be a better midfield player by removing the need for Gerrard to desert his position in search of goals as much.

So maybe we are getting there......

by **zarababe** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:10 am

s@int wrote:If only Rafa had done it this way sooner , we'd have won more titles

I am pretty sure I know more than Rafa

blimey - get big Saint Yehhhh - Rafa out NOW :angry:

It is interesting how all of a sudden there is an air of ... 'getting there', that somehow Rafa's built something that looks like it may deliver in the league. He talks about the Valencia feeling himself.. and herein lies the crux of the matter.. u can't turn a bunch of underachievers; stuffed with mediocre talent, with the odd world class midfielder and defender, in to league winners in a matter of 2/3 seasons.

Any rebuidling programme takes time; tinkering, ins-and-outs, outs-and-ins and mistakes too, not to mention disagreements and even distastorous boardroom ranglings - hey it's minefield out there

- and so for me it still is about Rafa delivering on a 4 year programme of rebuilding the side, instilling confidence, inculcating a winning mentality and sprinkling some world beaters in to, so that the odd blipp does not become a seasons lost opportunity, rather a reason to work harder and kill the opposition off ASAP.

Rafa's achieving it and keeping the faith in him for me has been about internalising and understaining his task, vision and ability to deliver. He hasn't prioritised the CL, rather it became a vehicle for instilling confidence, proving that against the best in Europe we are a match and transating that mentality, confidence and hunger in to the players, in preperation for a league assault.

And now with a squad of European Winners at international level too..Rafa could well be about to deliver !

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:29 am

I started this off in the Kuyt thread, but like so many of my posts it started to veer off into this direction so I moved it in here

.

Well aside just for the moment from whether he is good enough on a permanent basis, Kuyt is playing just about as well as he can possibly play IMHO at the moment. He isn't going to suddenly develop pace, or a great first touch, and he certainly can't start working harder, but he is playing pretty well nontheless and by his standards excellently.

He is one of quite a few in the team who are showing the early signs of benifitting from knowing they are going to play every week. Arbeloa is improving game by game, as has Skyrtel. On the subject of Skyrtel, I think you are just going to have to take the occasional moments of awful defending like the one tonight as part of the package. Players who have a tendency to ball watch will always have it, and you just have to hope that he can work hard to minimise it as much as possible. Whetever though, with consistency of selection he continues to develop (and has already surpassed where I thought he could get to), as does his relationship with Carragher.

Further forward Alonso is in the best form he has been in in a Liverpool shirt for three seasons. I know some people won't agree, but that's their privilage I'm simply stating my opinion. Riera is kind of settling into it, but I'm starting to think he needs a big game or a couple of big moments to show he's truly arrived. He's very neat and tidy (and once again a better player than i originally gave him credit for) but the feeling persists that he's going to nbeed to give more of his talent and impose himself if we are going to prosper.

After being persisted with, Keane and Torres are beginning to look mildly promising, and all in all things are slowly but surely coming together. That's the usual way of things if you give yourself a chance.

The other natural bi-product of a more conventional selection policy is of course that the likes of Babel, Agger and Masherano will be busting a gut to get a game. When they eventually do, don't be surprised to see them play out of their skins. That's the way it always used to happen, and indeed still does everywhere else apart from at Tottenham.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:16 am

What interests me now is...... are all the people that supported and defended Rafa and his rotation policy, now going to say that Rafa is wrong to abandon it, and that he should continue to rotate ?

blimey - get big Saint Yehhhh - Rafa out NOW

Finally someone starts talking sense

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:01 am

No Saint they won't lol. As I said earlier, what you'll get now is either that it's nothing to do with rotation, or that it would still have worked if we had better players.

I haven't quite reconciled yet how they'll align themselves with rafa completely changing tack, but no doubt they'll think of something. As I said earlier though, even when we lose whilst not rotating I won't myself be accusing pro-rotationers of being glad that we lost.

by **Kharhaz** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:07 am

bigmick wrote:No Saint they won't lol. As I said earlier, what you'll get now is either that it's nothing to do with rotation, or that it would still have worked if we had better players.

I haven't quite reconciled yet how they'll align themselves with rafa completely changing tack, but no doubt they'll think of something. As I said earlier though, even when we lose whilst not rotating I won't myself be accusing pro-rotationers of being glad that we lost.

Its already thought of. Its the players. Kuyt is a let down, so is dossena. You see them in mass when we drew with stoke. I can already picture our first defeat, Kuyt is the first to blame, then rafa, throw in dossena then rafa potential transfers ! Its already there, its just waiting to be thrown in !

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