Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:25 pm

True, I skimmed the abuse and then got it wrong when I reviewed it because of the controversy.

More importantly

Bigmick posts

My guess this season is that Torres will do very well to score 2/3 as many goals as he did last season, which would still have him as one of the very best strikers in the League and therefore on the planet.

I'd underline this bit despite I think all the post was good. I too think 2/3 of the goals would be a good season.

I'm just uncertain about if last season was Torres' best season of his career, he surprised me so much in his adaptation, that I rediscovered Torres.

What I do know, regardless of the goal tally, is that thanks to that adaption to the English League, Torres is a better and more complete player. He has learned big things about how to use the body in England. I doubt the Torres of 3 years ago would have scored the winner for Spain against Germany, a good example of his strenght.

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:29 pm

DAV wrote:This has probably been mentioned so I will apologise in advance. I'm someone will show the exact results.
Over the year’s teams that have been promoted to the premiership always seem to get results against us at anfield. Examples of this are barnsley,bradford (I think) sheff utd,stoke, birmingham. their are probabley more. Why is this and what causes it??? AS these results against the new boys, seems to happen over and over again.

I think a big part of it is pressure. We expect the team to get a result against these "lesser" sides and if the team dont score in the first half or not performing well or not winning then the pressures really on. I do think though against stoke, we did everything but score. And these performances are not new either but always on these occasions the goalkeeper gets man of the match for the other team.

by **DAV** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:32 pm

if this is so, i maybe wrong but over the years the man utds, chelsea's and arsenal's the odd blip yes but they dont suffer as badley as we do against the newboys at home. i no the their is no 1 reason for this but it makes no sense to me.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:08 pm

Sabre wrote:Torres is not the best striker of the world for me but definitely he showed me last season he was what we needed.

Just interested but who do you think is the best striker in the world?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:09 pm

I have no real worries about Torres, apart from if he can play with a partner or is better as a lone striker. I thought last season that he needed a partner or he would suffer physically , I am begining to think I was wrong and that the last thing he needs is a strike partner.

by **pass_da_dutchie** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:55 pm

What's with all the questions about Torres' ability to play with a partner? Didn't he spend the best part of six months up top with a partner last year. He still scored though. He had spells with Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin up front last year and still scored. Just because he and Keane haven't clicked instantly and became the new Dalglish/Rush partnership we're all questioning the ability of two of the best forwards in the Premiership? Christ all mighty, there's no pleasing some.

Do people understand that partnerships take time to gel? Do people understand that even world class players have a dip in form? Do people understand that Torres is still recovering from a long summer and recent injury?

Right now it just so happens that our first choice forwards are both going through a bad spell at the same time. So it's up to the other players to stand up and be counted and right now they're not. The defence has done it's job all season long. From an attacking point of view we're short on anything positive apart from the odd spark of magic from Steven Gerrard. What Torres and Keane don't need is people questioning their ability together or indiviually. While we're picking up results, which this season we have, it's invaluable match time for Torres and Keane to work up an understanding and it's only a matter of time before they click and are both scoring on a regular basis.

by **Sabre** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:08 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Sabre wrote:Torres is not the best striker of the world for me but definitely he showed me last season he was what we needed.

Just interested but who do you think is the best striker in the world?

You know, that question is a bit tricky for me now. I'll explain.

When I call a striker "the best of the world" I mean a step beyond anyone else, not "in the same level of other 3 top strikers". And it also depends on form, and for how long they're able to be in top form (Look Ronaldinho 3 years ago and now)

I normally have spotted those along the years, Henry has been at some point of his career, and Romario has been at some point of his career.

Both of them had in common in different years that they were able to perform at world class level for more than one season in a row.

In midfield you could say aswell over the years that a Maradona or a Zidane was the best midfielder.

Right now, I struggle to think about such a striker, there are many candidates, but I don't see any striker beyond anyone else clearly. Agüero, Torres, and Messi as a striker have put in fire their leagues last season. Not the season before that. Villa did an average season last year bar the summer (1) . You could talk about Rooneys Drogbas or Van Nystelrooys aswell, but those won't be that good to be considered the best of the world neither. If Torres is able to do yet another outstanding season, he'd probably be the best striker of the world with my criteria, even if I consider Messi more magic.

(1) Side note: it's not only about goals but impact aswell, Luis Fabiano scored more than Villa but still I wouldn't consider him better. Villa scored a good amount, but still wasn't his best season in the league.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:16 am

pass_da_dutchie wrote:What's with all the questions about Torres' ability to play with a partner? Didn't he spend the best part of six months up top with a partner last year. He still scored though. He had spells with Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin up front last year and still scored. Just because he and Keane haven't clicked instantly and became the new Dalglish/Rush partnership we're all questioning the ability of two of the best forwards in the Premiership? Christ all mighty, there's no pleasing some.

Mate chill. It's a football discussion foum and people think aloud. Obviously even if they don't eventually click, even if it's a pairing mane in hell rather than heaven, both Torres and Keane will score goals. Nobody is disputing that or saying that Torres can't play with a partner. Saint is simply thinking aloud that based on what he saw before, he may have called it wrong.

People do that on here sometimes.

by **Sabre** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:25 am

Funny, I hadn't read so far a couple of quotes of Torres in Marca related to this striker thing,

Torres on Agüero "We knew in what kind of striker he'd become (world class) the first training session with us"

Torres on Keane "A player of his type will be very useful for us, he just needs a goal in order everything is great, after the first, many more will come".

by **pass_da_dutchie** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:29 am

bigmick wrote:
pass_da_dutchie wrote:What's with all the questions about Torres' ability to play with a partner? Didn't he spend the best part of six months up top with a partner last year. He still scored though. He had spells with Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin up front last year and still scored. Just because he and Keane haven't clicked instantly and became the new Dalglish/Rush partnership we're all questioning the ability of two of the best forwards in the Premiership? Christ all mighty, there's no pleasing some.

Mate chill. It's a football discussion foum and people think aloud. Obviously even if they don't eventually click, even if it's a pairing mane in hell rather than heaven, both Torres and Keane will score goals. Nobody is disputing that or saying that Torres can't play with a partner. Saint is simply thinking aloud that based on what he saw before, he may have called it wrong.

People do that on here sometimes.

I'm aware of what Saint was doing. But he's questioning IF Torres can play with a forward, when he blatantly can.

Now if I'm going to be completely honest (and not allow my heart to speak) then I think Robbie Keane is going to take a long time to justify his hefty price tag of our limited transfer funds. Not because he's a bad player because he isn't, he's a great player but because Fernando Torres and Robbie Keane do not suit each other's game.

Wherever Robbie Keane has excelled he's had a forward beside him who can hold it up and bring him into play or a forward who can flick it on for him. At Coventry he had John Aloisi who was very capable of holding the ball up for Keane. At Leeds he had Mark Viduka who again was very strong and brought Keane into play. At Spurs he had Berbatov who was good at both, bringing Keane into play by holding the ball up or flicking it on. And at international level, his best days were with Niall Quinn who'd win everything in the air. Torres on the other hand, his best games last year where either with Gerrard just behind him or along side Crouch.

Now that's why I think that the results we're currently picking up (while playing well below par) are twice as important because it's given time for Torres and Keane to work out a way of playing with one another. Maybe one day they'll get to both start and finish the match, but that's wishful thinking I suppose. But neither really suit the other and that's why it's important they get as much time together as possible and why it hasn't clicked instantly. I hope to see it work and because they're both that good it'll have to work at some point even if it's a one off.

(probably sounds like a contradiciton of my first post, but very often my heart will rule over sense)

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:36 am

pass_da_dutchie wrote:What's with all the questions about Torres' ability to play with a partner? Didn't he spend the best part of six months up top with a partner last year. He still scored though. He had spells with Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin up front last year and still scored. Just because he and Keane haven't clicked instantly and became the new Dalglish/Rush partnership we're all questioning the ability of two of the best forwards in the Premiership? Christ all mighty, there's no pleasing some.

Do people understand that partnerships take time to gel? Do people understand that even world class players have a dip in form? Do people understand that Torres is still recovering from a long summer and recent injury?

Right now it just so happens that our first choice forwards are both going through a bad spell at the same time. So it's up to the other players to stand up and be counted and right now they're not. The defence has done it's job all season long. From an attacking point of view we're short on anything positive apart from the odd spark of magic from Steven Gerrard. What Torres and Keane don't need is people questioning their ability together or indiviually. While we're picking up results, which this season we have, it's invaluable match time for Torres and Keane to work up an understanding and it's only a matter of time before they click and are both scoring on a regular basis.

Interesting post mate, do you know how many league games Torres started with Crouch ........ 4.

He doesn't seem to have a problem with Kuyt because Kuyt plays so deep that its like playing as a lone striker anyway. This season is the first one where he has actually had a partner playing along side him rather than playing behind him like Kuyt and Gerrard did.

I don't think ANYONE is questioning the ability of Torres, certainly I am not...... but I am questioning whether Torres would be a lot better off playing with a creative second striker playing a deeper role, rather than Keane who seems to be making similar runs and taking up the space that last season Torres used to such good effect.

I don't think someone questioning their ability on an internet web site is going to have any effect on their performances to be honest mate

To put it in context, last season when Torres was playing the lone striker, I was advocating playing him with a strike partner, because lone strikers tend to have a shortened career due to the physical demands of chasing down balls and having two CB'S KICKING LUMPS OUT OF THEM.

Having now had the opportunity to see him playing with a strike partner I think the benefits may be outweighed by the negatives ...... lack of space to use his pace effectively and players making similar runs etc etc .

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:37 am

i think Saint is meaning to say Torres is more suited to being the main striker. if you had noticed during the match against stoke, Keane and Torres showed a total lack of understanding. many times Keane couldve passed the ball to Torres but opted not to.

by **pass_da_dutchie** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:47 am

Well in all fairness Saint, Robbie Keane is a creative forward. His whole game is taking up positions where he can influence the game, but as I've already said he feeds of knock downs or somebody being able to hold the ball up. Fernando Torres would rather run the chanels which leaves Keane in no mans land. The one player who both Keane and Torres would feed off is Peter Crouch yet we decided to let him go.

Anyway that's in the past, the current situation is these two need as much time at Melwood and during the 90 minutes of a match as possible together. Keane constantly being substituted or not playing at all isn't going to help these two build up that relationship they need. They both need to alter their game to suit the other. Keane needs to hold his runs and pull defenders out with him so Torres can run in behind, while Torres needs to be a bit more physical and win the long ball every now and then.

by **slickrick** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:48 am

when i said we havn't got the fire power to compete i wasn't sayin that torres is useless, torres is a quality player theres no question there, what i meant was as a unit going forward we can't compete, fair enough in gerrard and torres we have brilliant individual players but we don't attack as well as arsenal or chelsea do from midfield. but once again if u say anything negative your jumped upon and battered for making such statements

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:52 am

pass_da_dutchie wrote:Well in all fairness Saint, Robbie Keane is a creative second forward. His whole game is taking up positions where he can influence the game, but as I've already said he feeds of knock downs or somebody being able to hold the ball up. Fernando Torres would rather run the chanels which leaves Keane in no mans land. The one player who both Keane and Torres would feed off is Peter Crouch yet we decided to let him go.

Anyway that's in the past, the current situation is these two need as much time at Melwood and during the 90 minutes of a match as possible together. Keane constantly being substituted or not playing at all isn't going to help these two build up that relationship they need. They both need to alter their game to suit the other. Keane needs to hold his runs and pull defenders out with him so Torres can run in behind, while Torres needs to be a bit more physical and win the long ball every now and then.

There is no way on gods green earth that Keane is a creative second striker mate, never has been never ever will be. He has made a TOTAL of 8 assists in 3 seasons. I would expect between 10-15 assists from a top class creative second striker PER SEASON I.E. Rooney 10 assists last season .... 11 assists year before.

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