Liverpool FC Forum

Sabre wrote:

Perhaps if some people on here had a little more intelligence they would realise that the problem wasn't just Saturdays game, but has been apparent both this season , last season and for quite a number of years now.

Started getting the picture now, or do you need it explaining further ? 

Yes, I get the picture, you question the inteligence of other posters when they disagree you. I think that's a pity, since you have more and better resources than that.

Now, to footie, and discussing calmly, which is what I want from you:

We have great strikers , a great player in Gerrard WHAT WE DON'T HAVE is someone with game intelligence. That doesn't mean our players are thick or cr@p, it means we don't have a player that is good enough in that particular aspect of the game.

I don't honestly think we needed sheer brilliance nor great intelligence to win yesterday match. Honest. Just play any top league (England, Spain, Italy) mid team, with players no more intelligent than Mascherano and Alonso (which I don't think they lack inteligence, btw), and they'll win comfortably.

The Stoke fans were celebrating as a victory because 9 out of 10 times they'd lose a game like yesterday.

So you think this is the same old problem we've been having the past seasons.

IMHO 3 years ago we had different problems compared to when Rafa reached the club, and our problems now are different than 3 years ago. Back then you could draw a game because either you hadn't width, or your upfront players were not sharp enough as a rule. I don't think that's the case any more, we have Riera, we have Torres upfront, and Keane, a good player, much better than Morientes to do work outside the box, and much better than Bellamy.

I honestly think we have progressed in our mistakes these years. You're entitled to believe with another manager we could do better, or that we haven't progressed much, which is nice, but I simply disagree.

We just had a bad day in the office. And I admit and we can discuss what we did wrong. Including Rafa's decissions.

Sabre wrote:Maypax, my post is bad enough to be quoted again to make a simple question.

We didn't win because this is football and because otherwise betting money in football would be a safe business in games like this.

If this season is a season of draws at home Max, I'll admit that's a problem and unacceptable, I TOO ASK TO RAFA to challenge and we can't challenge if we make draws like yesterday often. But we're not there at the moment. Just as it wouldn't be accurate to have massive euphoria should we had won, which is what would have probably happened.

LFC2007 wrote:My opinion ©

The result was much more than a minor slip-up, but not quite a major one, because of the situation we find ourselves in. It was as much of a 'given' as we're likely to get, and you'd be lucky to find shorter odds for a home league game this season. However, whilst it was at this time last season we began stuttering after an excellent start, this season we've been playing very badly and getting reasonable results, and we already have a win against a main title contender in the bag - which is something we didn't have at the start of last season.

I didn't think the performance was too bad, we totally dominated the game and had two excellent chances to put the game to bed with Torres' header and Keane's flick-shot, though I definitely felt we could've created more threatening opportunities from the positions we found ourselves in. We created much more than we did against Birmingham at home last season for example - so it wasn't all that reminiscent of that performance IMO, but our final delivery, shooting, and decision making around the 18yd box weren't quite there. Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt and Riera all had excellent shooting opportunities but hit the target just once convincingly. The fact that we were having shots from the edge of the area wasn't - to my mind - an indication that we lacked the nouse or intelligence to break into the box, it was simply one of the most obvious ways to get a goal against a Stoke team that absolutely packed the area. All the top teams who've won the league in recent seasons get goals from rebounds and deflections as a result of shots outside the area - Chelsea of a few seasons ago being a prime example. The tactic itself wasn't at fault, our shooting was simply nowhere near good enough - appalling in fact, just 6 on target and 18 off. It's a problem because stat's for last season showed our shooting accuracy was lower than every other one of the top four and 15th overall at 40%.

In terms of our final delivery from crosses, free-kicks and set-pieces, we were equally poor for the majority of the game. To put this in perspective, Dossena and Riera made 13 crosses, Gerrard 10, Kuyt 9, Alonso 5, Arbeloa 5, and perhaps four or five of these were sufficiently threatening - Kuyt's cross for Keane for the flick-shot, his cut-back for Torres second half, Gerrard's goal from a free-kick which was disallowed and a free-kick second half into a similar danger area, and Arbeloa's cut-back for Keane and then his cross for Torres which went just wide. Our corners were unsurprisingly ineffective as only Torres is really a threat and not a great one at that, whilst Stoke are a physically huge side and had no bother clearing their lines.

I felt the tactic to camp outside their area and hurl balls in hoping for a knock-down or deflection was a poor one because of their aerial dominance and the number of men they had inside the box. We could've varied it a lot more by crossing into feet - or flashing the ball across the box, getting to the by-line more often and driving the ball into the area. Aside the disallowed goal and Torres' header, we didn't create much by using aerial bombardment as a primary tactic. We had the personnel to vary it more often, we just didn't do it for whatever reason. We worked around their 18yd area and around them, rarely between them, and that's how you draw players out of position in order to create space, we just didn't do it for some reason.

Having said all of that I wouldn't call it a major criticism because if the disallowed goal stands then we win the game - simple as that, and if Torres and Keane were firing on all cylinders - we win the game again. Also, Stoke defended exceptionally well and actually getting in behind them by driving to the by-line was very difficult because they had so many men covering.

The result means we have to make up the two points against an opponent we would usually draw against or be defeated, e.g. Everton & City away. Such is the added pressure from not capitalising on the Stoke game, they now become games which will truly test our character and title winning credentials.

Bad Bob wrote:But for some to suggest that the main reason we didn't come away with maximum points yesterday was because the manager got it wrong is, IMHO, nonsense.  Put that exact same team out playing those very same tactics week in, week out against Stoke and their ilk and I guarantee we'll win the majority of those games.

Absolutely 100% agree.

Lakes 

s@int wrote:

But for some to suggest that the main reason we didn't come away with maximum points yesterday was because the manager got it wrong is, IMHO, nonsense.  Put that exact same team out playing those very same tactics week in, week out against Stoke and their ilk and I guarantee we'll win the majority of those games.

I agree Bob, but I also think lack of a plan "B" also played a part. While persistance often pays off, yesterday it didn't, we didn't get the lucky break of the ball or the miss-hit shot that went to one of our players etc. We need to obviously work on our corners, crossing etc, but i also think too many of our players took the easy option yesterday of playing too many balls out wide rather than trying to play balls into the admittedly few spaces in and behind their back 6 OR WAS IT 8!

It was obvious from early on that high crosses for the main part would be a waste of time (although Torres did have one good chance) so while we used our width, we didn't use it to good effect.  You could see that the only times Stoke looked uncomfortable was when we kept the ball on the ground , while they were happy to defend crosses and corners all day.

LFC2007 wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:But for some to suggest that the main reason we didn't come away with maximum points yesterday was because the manager got it wrong is, IMHO, nonsense.  Put that exact same team out playing those very same tactics week in, week out against Stoke and their ilk and I guarantee we'll win the majority of those games.

Absolutely 100% agree.

Lakes