Liverpool FC Forum

by **lakes10** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:24 pm

Bob i will still stand by my point that i have stated since Rafa come here, he is not a GREAT Prem manager.
he still seems it hard to understand that over here small teams can hold out for 90mins, the way to beat them is not you put in high balls all the time when they have 11 men back in their own box.

you need to draw them out then hit them.

Rafa dont do that.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:28 pm

lakes10 wrote:you need to draw them out then hit them.

Rafa dont do that.

How's that accomplished then, mate?

by **lakes10** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:you need to draw them out then hit them.

Rafa dont do that.

How's that accomplished then, mate?

same way as Man u and and the other culbs do it mate, let them over commit themselves, you know your are better than them, so you just sit back for a bit, they start to think they can come at us then you you hit them. its the olsd 1980 type football. it has not changed and we was good at it once. or you keep the ball go wide taking their players with you then cross it. not run at 11 men in a box with a ball.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:45 pm

Lakes and BadBob have points.

1) rafa couldve adjusted his plans and given out instructions as we became more desperate
2) the players could have taken their chances better

its was a collective team effort that caused such a result. i dont see how anyone could be pinpointed for any specific blame.

by **lakes10** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:01 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:Lakes and BadBob have points.

1) rafa couldve adjusted his plans and given out instructions as we became more desperate
2) the players could have taken their chances better

its was a collective team effort that caused such a result. i dont see how anyone could be pinpointed for any specific blame.

god dont say i have a point, you have cards already you might get another for saying that lol.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:09 pm

lakes10 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:you need to draw them out then hit them.

Rafa dont do that.

How's that accomplished then, mate?

same way as Man u and and the other culbs do it mate, let them over commit themselves, you know your are better than them, so you just sit back for a bit, they start to think they can come at us then you you hit them. its the olsd 1980 type football. it has not changed and we was good at it once. or you keep the ball go wide taking their players with you then cross it. not run at 11 men in a box with a ball.

I'm not sure about drawing them out, mate. I've never seen a team put so many men behind the ball and sit so deep as they did. A complete lack of adventure on their part and it makes me wonder if they could have been drawn out. I agree about changing the point of attack to wide positions and I thought we did that reasonably effectively when Riera was on the pitch. The problem, as Andy's already mentioned, is that we showed a very lop-sided threat down the left yesterday and Stoke were able to overload that side of the pitch.

Just as much of a problem, IMO, is our fullbacks. Yesterday we needed the fullbacks trying to overlap our wide midfielders and get crosses in from deep positions. The trouble is that neither Dossena or Arbeloa carry a significant threat with their crossing and both seem to resist the urge to drive completely to the byline before crossing anyway, looking often to check back onto their other foot and play a safe ball back to the winger. When they did put crosses in, as Barry's noted, they were often from deep positions and they were looped in rather than whipped in. Perhaps, tactically, Rafa should have urged them to drive to the byline more but I wonder if it's just a case of neither being good enough.

That said, I still contend we created enough chances to win and didn't take them.

by **aCe'** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:25 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
aCe' wrote:our players better than theirs... need motivation..tactics.. good subs... you win the game... players fail to perform..take them off.. thats what ur paid to do as manager... we cant go around blaming the players whenever we dont perform but when we do get results the manager takes credit as well ?!

I didn't see a lack of motivation out there yesterday. I saw a team that individually and collectively turned in a performance below what they were capable of. I saw tactics that created chances, only to see those chances spurned. I saw positive subs designed to bring on players who could change the game. Above all else, I saw a game where we would otherwise win at a canter turn out a disappointing draw because our top players simply failed to do what we've come to routinely expect them to do.

For those that saw things differently, I'd like to know just what changes you would have made in Rafa's place to bring about the victory? What glaring mistakes did he make that you would have sidestepped if you were calling the shots? Because I don't see it.

Well by what you are saying we were motivated and the tactics were spot on, the subs spot on but we still couldn’t break down the mighty stoke defense..
Sorry but yes i do see it differently !

First of all Kuyt shouldn’t have started.. he did .. and fair enough he did well in a few matches this season and scored a vital goal but for him to stay on the pitch for all 90 mins is a mistake by Rafa imo... he wasted way too many balls high up the pitch.. more than any other player by poor crossing and useless passing that got us nowhere... he had a couple of good crosses but going by the law of averages that was the least he could have done ! Should have come off imo

Fullbacks... both crossing as if we had Carew and Crouch to pick out in the area ... and newsflash.. their crossing was sht !
If i was manager first thing id say to both fullbacks at halftime is "fckin stop all the nonsense and start looking for passes instead of giving away possession so cheaply"..

Corners.. we can’t head a ball.. Cant cross a ball.. why not pass it ? how many goals did we score from corners in the last couple of years... don’t need two hands to tally that...

Subs... we took out Riera and Keane to bring in Benny and Babel... hardly 'positive' changes that show 'intent'..
Basically we subbed like for like and didn’t change the style of play or shape of the team.. we didn’t throw bodies in their area to try and win it late on like im guessing Mourinho or Ferguson would have.. Dossena should have come off, kuyt should have come off, we could have played 3 at the back and pressed them higher up their pitch with more bodies.. in fact imo we should have..

motivation... what do you mean you didn’t see a lack of motivation... why weren’t they performing like they should have if they were all motivated and were going out there for destroying stoke from minute 1 ? They lacked urgency... they lacked drive... at many times they looked content being void of ideas.. very frustrating for me to watch the game but many players didn’t seem all that frustrated going about play in the 80th minute or so.. I’d love to see things from your perspective but I’m sure you cant blame me if i don’t !

by **lakes10** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:27 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:you need to draw them out then hit them.

Rafa dont do that.

How's that accomplished then, mate?

same way as Man u and and the other culbs do it mate, let them over commit themselves, you know your are better than them, so you just sit back for a bit, they start to think they can come at us then you you hit them. its the olsd 1980 type football. it has not changed and we was good at it once. or you keep the ball go wide taking their players with you then cross it. not run at 11 men in a box with a ball.

I'm not sure about drawing them out, mate. I've never seen a team put so many men behind the ball and sit so deep as they did. A complete lack of adventure on their part and it makes me wonder if they could have been drawn out. I agree about changing the point of attack to wide positions and I thought we did that reasonably effectively when Riera was on the pitch. The problem, as Andy's already mentioned, is that we showed a very lop-sided threat down the left yesterday and Stoke were able to overload that side of the pitch.

Just as much of a problem, IMO, is our fullbacks. Yesterday we needed the fullbacks trying to overlap our wide midfielders and get crosses in from deep positions. The trouble is that neither Dossena or Arbeloa carry a significant threat with their crossing and both seem to resist the urge to drive completely to the byline before crossing anyway, looking often to check back onto their other foot and play a safe ball back to the winger. When they did put crosses in, as Barry's noted, they were often from deep positions and they were looped in rather than whipped in. Perhaps, tactically, Rafa should have urged them to drive to the byline more but I wonder if it's just a case of neither being good enough.

That said, I still contend we created enough chances to win and didn't take them.

Riera has shocked me, if he can pick his pace up a bit he is going to be a great player.

you are right we did get so many chances to get a goal, but what happens when the gam get like this the other team set in and gets uses to blocking all the time, they start to find it easy, like back at school when the PE teacher would put you in goal then get evey one to kick balls at you, first of all you let a lot in, the next time you do a bit better, by the end you are stopping most of them.

thats when you need to give them the ball and draw them out, you let them sit in there own box all the time they just work out how to block everything.

i think we missed a few players that we have sold.

Keane is a big worry for me, he just dont seem to be happy playing in the team right now, a few games sitting out might help that.
Dossena is giving the ball away far too much and he seem to get lost during the game, by this i dont mean he falls out the game, i mean that he gets the ball and runs with it and then forgets where he is, i find him very strange.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:33 pm

Sabre wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
aCe' wrote:anyways its 2 points lost and with the difference in quality between our players and theirs... cant help but think that the manager has to take most of the blame...

Ah, see that's where I fundamentally disagree with you Ace'. With the difference in quality between our players and theirs I can't help but think that the players have to take most of the blame. Did they execute on the day? No they did not and that's the bottom line for me.

Now it seems our players are not intelligent enough. As if not winning yesterday depended on sheer footballing intelligence.

Perhaps "We've got the best midfield of the world" was a bit too much, but the reality is closer to that than to "Our players lack intelligence".

Yesterdays' game didn't require Barcelona-esque passing, nor our best football. It didn't even require a top class team like Liverpool to beat Stoke, you could expect a win even from Villa, Tottenham and many teams with midfielders much worse than ours.

We simply didn't score our chances. Our plan of the game wasn't bad, we did try to use width which is the proper thing to do in these games, we just didn't deliver upfront. In other games other seasons we did fail to build up and create chances, it was a more dull dominance, but yesterday we didn't score, and what it could have been massive euphoria it has become in the usual stuff around here.

League is long, and we shouldn't change our mood from one week to another.

As for the initial questions, is this a blip or a bliiiip, I'm not a fortune teller, but I do think we have won width with Riera and we are able to compete with the other top teams.

In Bigmicks' book probably it was time to give time to the Mascherano-Alonso pairing that worked against Manchester United, but for me it made sense the Gerrard-Alonso selection. Why? it was a game to use width and range shots, and in the team selection Gerrard-Alonso are more appropiate for that kind of game, there was not much to be destroyed Mascherano, so that team selection made sense, and rest Mascherano for the next game. It didn't work, our corners were shíte, and we were dull upfront, but from one game my confidence hasn't crumbled.

Perhaps if some people on here had a little more intelligence they would realise that the problem wasn't just Saturdays game, but has been apparent both this season , last season and for quite a number of years now.

How many goals have we genuinely CREATED this season and how many have been more due to luck or individual brilliance rather than intelligent passing play ?

Standard Liege 0-0 so no assist there

Sunderland 1-0 Torres scored a great goal

Middlesbrough 2-1 OWN GOAL and Gerrard goal aided by ball hitting Keane

Standard Liege 1-0(E.T) goal by Kuyt from cross by Babel (Hardly the thinking man of the prem)

Aston Villa 0-0 No help there

Man utd 2-1 OWN GOAL , and a goal created by GIGG'S MISTAKE and Mascherano's determination - no thought required.

Marseille 2-1 Penalty from up field punt, and Gerrard wonder goal, no creative thought there either.

Stoke City 0-0 No goals again

Started getting the picture now, or do you need it explaining further ? We are far too reliant on individual players moments of brilliance rather than creating good chances for our players. We probably score more goals from OUTSIDE the area than any other top team, because we actually arn't very good at making clever passes into the box, most of the time its either a hopeful cross or a long ball for a player to run on to rather than a subtle pass.

We have great strikers , a great player in Gerrard WHAT WE DON'T HAVE is someone with game intelligence. That doesn't mean our players are thick or cr@p, it means we don't have a player that is good enough in that particular aspect of the game.

Against tight defences goals can be scored in various different ways, long shots, moments of individual brilliance, luck etc, but we score very few goals from subtle or well timed little passes into the box.

I can only think of a couple from last season as well, both from Kewell for Torres to score.

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:33 pm

Well I'm still hopeful and I haven't slagged anybody off this season. I do hope though that as the whole thing pans out and we go forwards we are not going to once again get into this ridiculous argument about whether or not it's Rafa's fault should we underperform. If we don't beat Stoke at Home, then I don't give two sh!tes whether we were unlucky, had three penalties saved, hit the post four times and got robbed by the ref, it isn't a good day at the office for the manager. Similarly, if we go very close to winning the Premiership, it would be absolutely ridiculous to say it was nothing to do with the manager, the players got us all those points.

It's not by any means the end of the World that we didn't beat Stoke, nor is the end that we haven't really started the season with any fluency. But Rafa is culpable in everything which happens on the pitch, just as it is to his credit that we beat Man Utd etc etc. This "it's not Rafa's fault that Torres missed a free header" is a silly argument. We can then assume that Rafa deserves no credit for any of the goals we score, for any of the goals we avoid conceding?

No. We win together and we lose together. In this case we drew together and wasted an excellent opportunity to gain two points on Manchester United and Chelsea. Two points which would never be given back, simply a "given" two point cushion. It was a wasted opportunity, and if there is blame to be assigned everyone takes it INCLUDING the manager. It is over now though, and we must bounce back before it becomes a bliiiiiiiiip.

by **rafa09** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:42 pm

We still have,nt lost a game this season,so somethings going right.If you look at the prem in general,no team has started well.I will believe we can win the prem until it,s mathmatically impossible to do so.That goes for all compititions.YNWA

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:46 pm

To be fair to Rafa Mick , he picked a stronger team than I expected, played most of them in reasonable positions, made reasonable subs (ALL REASONS TO HAVE A MOAN in other games) what more could he do? I am the first to say he doesn't always get it right, but from what I saw maybe the only thing you could blame him for was our corners, free kicks and tactics.

Against a team with as many 6 footers as Stoke we were never likely to win much in the air, so maybe the moan about tactics is possibly justified , but I wouldn't blame Rafa this week. (Maybe we could just blame him for buying the wrong players and leave it at that

)

by **metalhead** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:10 pm

I blame the owners for our draw against stoke , if it wasn't for Twit and Tw@t, we would have won the game surely because Rafa would have concentrated more on the game than his next rant with the owners. :talktothehand

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:31 pm

bigmick wrote:Well I'm still hopeful and I haven't slagged anybody off this season. I do hope though that as the whole thing pans out and we go forwards we are not going to once again get into this ridiculous argument about whether or not it's Rafa's fault should we underperform. If we don't beat Stoke at Home, then I don't give two sh!tes whether we were unlucky, had three penalties saved, hit the post four times and got robbed by the ref, it isn't a good day at the office for the manager. Similarly, if we go very close to winning the Premiership, it would be absolutely ridiculous to say it was nothing to do with the manager, the players got us all those points.

It's not by any means the end of the World that we didn't beat Stoke, nor is the end that we haven't really started the season with any fluency. But Rafa is culpable in everything which happens on the pitch, just as it is to his credit that we beat Man Utd etc etc. This "it's not Rafa's fault that Torres missed a free header" is a silly argument. We can then assume that Rafa deserves no credit for any of the goals we score, for any of the goals we avoid conceding?

No. We win together and we lose together. In this case we drew together and wasted an excellent opportunity to gain two points on Manchester United and Chelsea. Two points which would never be given back, simply a "given" two point cushion. It was a wasted opportunity, and if there is blame to be assigned everyone takes it INCLUDING the manager. It is over now though, and we must bounce back before it becomes a bliiiiiiiiip.

yeah u did. u slagged riera off even before he kicked a ball

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:36 pm

Perhaps if some people on here had a little more intelligence they would realise that the problem wasn't just Saturdays game, but has been apparent both this season , last season and for quite a number of years now.

Started getting the picture now, or do you need it explaining further ?

Yes, I get the picture, you question the inteligence of other posters when they disagree you. I think that's a pity, since you have more and better resources than that.

Now, to footie, and discussing calmly, which is what I want from you:

We have great strikers , a great player in Gerrard WHAT WE DON'T HAVE is someone with game intelligence. That doesn't mean our players are thick or cr@p, it means we don't have a player that is good enough in that particular aspect of the game.

I don't honestly think we needed sheer brilliance nor great intelligence to win yesterday match. Honest. Just play any top league (England, Spain, Italy) mid team, with players no more intelligent than Mascherano and Alonso (which I don't think they lack inteligence, btw), and they'll win comfortably.

The Stoke fans were celebrating as a victory because 9 out of 10 times they'd lose a game like yesterday.

So you think this is the same old problem we've been having the past seasons.

IMHO 3 years ago we had different problems compared to when Rafa reached the club, and our problems now are different than 3 years ago. Back then you could draw a game because either you hadn't width, or your upfront players were not sharp enough as a rule. I don't think that's the case any more, we have Riera, we have Torres upfront, and Keane, a good player, much better than Morientes to do work outside the box, and much better than Bellamy.

I honestly think we have progressed in our mistakes these years. You're entitled to believe with another manager we could do better, or that we haven't progressed much, which is nice, but I simply disagree.

We just had a bad day in the office. And I admit and we can discuss what we did wrong. Including Rafa's decissions.

Liverpool FC Forum

The calm thread. - Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............

Who is online