Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:21 pm

No one is happy with a draw at home against Stoke.

I'm interested more or less in how many of the readers/posters of this forum think about the main reasons to explain the dissapointing draw.

I, for instance, just think that it was a unlucky day and mixed with some players that have a low form at the moment, low forms that are part of football.

The discussion is covered in the general footie section, I'm interested in the amount of votes, to test the state of confidence of tha majority of the fans.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:26 pm

Obviously it's option 1 for me. I'd even go so far as to say that we could play considerably worse against Stoke than we played yesterday and still win 9 of 10. It just wasn't our day...no need for panic stations.

by **Bermenstein** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:45 pm

I voted other.

If we were lying 5th 0r 6th in the table, then yes we would have beaten stoke 9/10 times.
But Its a new kind of pressure for Lpool being top of the league and Expecting to beat teams like Stoke.

The game was crying out for Benayouin to play from the start. We need thru balls to split them open. It was too late when he cam on to be effective.

We play too direct sometimes, and v's Stoke we were 1 dimensional.

I think Rafa needs to try something different on the right side of midfield. I'm not gonna started slating Kuyt, as he actually played ok, but we seem very narrow.

Glad to see Riera has a few tricks up his sleeve.

If we're gonna win the league this year, we cannot let many more oportunities slip like Stoke again.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:11 pm

I posted this in another thread but it fits nicely in here :-

How many goals have we genuinely CREATED this season and how many have been more due to luck or individual brilliance rather than intelligent passing play ?

Standard Liege 0-0 so no assist there

Sunderland 1-0 Torres scored a great goal

Middlesbrough 2-1 OWN GOAL and Gerrard goal aided by ball hitting Keane

Standard Liege 1-0(E.T) goal by Kuyt from cross by Babel (Hardly the thinking man of the prem)

Aston Villa 0-0 No help there

Man utd 2-1 OWN GOAL , and a goal created by GIGG'S MISTAKE and Mascherano's determination - no thought required.

Marseille 2-1 Penalty from up field punt, and Gerrard wonder goal, no creative thought there either.

Stoke City 0-0 No goals again

Started getting the picture now, or do you need it explaining further ? We are far too reliant on individual players moments of brilliance rather than creating good chances for our players. We probably score more goals from OUTSIDE the area than any other top team, because we actually arn't very good at making clever passes into the box, most of the time its either a hopeful cross or a long ball for a player to run on to rather than a subtle pass.

We have great strikers , a great player in Gerrard WHAT WE DON'T HAVE is someone with game intelligence. That doesn't mean our players are thick or cr@p, it means we don't have a player that is good enough in that particular aspect of the game.

Against tight defences goals can be scored in various different ways, long shots, moments of individual brilliance, luck etc, but we score very few goals from subtle or well timed little passes into the box.

I can only think of a couple from last season as well, both from Kewell for Torres to score.

ps Game intelligence doesnt mean they have an I.Q. of over 150, it just means a player that not only has great vision, but the ability to time and make subtle passes or create opportunities that most players would never even see never mind attempt.

Players like Stjohn, Dalglish, Beardsley had it in abundance for us, Bergkamp, Cantona, York, Sherringham for our rivals.

by **metalhead** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:17 pm

s@int wrote:I posted this in another thread but it fits nicely in here :-

How many goals have we genuinely CREATED this season and how many have been more due to luck or individual brilliance rather than intelligent passing play ?

Standard Liege 0-0 so no assist there

Sunderland 1-0 Torres scored a great goal

Middlesbrough 2-1 OWN GOAL and Gerrard goal aided by ball hitting Keane

Standard Liege 1-0(E.T) goal by Kuyt from cross by Babel (Hardly the thinking man of the prem)

Aston Villa 0-0 No help there

Man utd 2-1 OWN GOAL , and a goal created by GIGG'S MISTAKE and Mascherano's determination - no thought required.

Marseille 2-1 Penalty from up field punt, and Gerrard wonder goal, no creative thought there either.

Stoke City 0-0 No goals again

Started getting the picture now, or do you need it explaining further ? We are far too reliant on individual players moments of brilliance rather than creating good chances for our players. We probably score more goals from OUTSIDE the area than any other top team, because we actually arn't very good at making clever passes into the box, most of the time its either a hopeful cross or a long ball for a player to run on to rather than a subtle pass.

We have great strikers , a great player in Gerrard WHAT WE DON'T HAVE is someone with game intelligence. That doesn't mean our players are thick or cr@p, it means we don't have a player that is good enough in that particular aspect of the game.

Against tight defences goals can be scored in various different ways, long shots, moments of individual brilliance, luck etc, but we score very few goals from subtle or well timed little passes into the box.

I can only think of a couple from last season as well, both from Kewell for Torres to score.

ps Game intelligence doesnt mean they have an I.Q. of over 150, it just means a player that not only has great vision, but the ability to time and make subtle passes or create opportunities that most players would never even see never mind attempt.

Players like Stjohn, Dalglish, Beardsley had it in abundance for us, Bergkamp, Cantona, York, Sherringham for our rivals.

Alright mate, Ill ring Rafa tommorow and tell him to get augerio

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:19 pm

Good lad...... you know it makes sense

by **Number 9** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:46 pm

I dont get where you are coming from Saint tbh!
Theres no doubting we have had a bit of luck at times,but to put the team down and basically discredit their efforts highlighting things like you have is pointless!
For example the UTD game.
There would have been no OG if we had not have been putting them under pressure.As for Babels goal.The ball was bobbling as it came to him,he scored it,it was a hard ball to hit.
Had he have put in in row Z he would have got equally hammered by some on here,so what are we coming to now?Score a goal you get sh'it on for being lucky,miss and you get chastised as well....maybe the players should just not try anymore??

It seems to me that there is an agenda on here lately to put the team down regardless of whether we win or not!
Maybe im strange but i dont care if we score a screamer in the 10th minute or a lucky O/G in injury time because you can be sure that our competetors wont complain where their points come from or how they get them!

As for this game intelligence or lack of thing that you or no one else talked about until mentioned by Stu...I think its over rated!

We beat and totally dominated one of the best teams in Europe in M Utd last week.
We went away to a very good Marsielle side and won.
I think they are two good signs of intelligence,if they are signs of game stupidity i will take them!
Yeah we came up short against a team that played like the Berlin Wall but its not time to panic!
The thing is,had Torres have hit his deflected shot cleaner that he should have scored,or Keane have buried his easy chance,these negative conversations would not be taking place...but they did'nt!

The line between newkit Euphoria and Gloom is paper thin...I detest the word "fickle" but it has never been more apt to descibe the mood and opinion on this forum than now!

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:34 pm

FFS I can't make it any clearer. I am not saying we don't score great goals, I am not saying we don't deserve to score all I am saying is we don't have a player with a particular attribute, and I think if we did we would be less likely to struggle for goals.

We have great players, players that can score incredible goals, what we don't have is a clever player in the final third who can play subtle little through balls.

I am not denegrating the goals we have scored this or any other season, merely pointing out where we don't get goals from, and where if we are going to win the league we could improve greatly.

I can't explain it any clearer mate sorry.

by **Number 9** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:51 pm

s@int wrote:FFS I can't make it any clearer. I am not saying we don't score great goals, I am not saying we don't deserve to score all I am saying is we don't have a player with a particular attribute, and I think if we did we would be less likely to struggle for goals.

We have great players, players that can score incredible goals, what we don't have is a clever player in the final third who can play subtle little through balls.

I am not denegrating the goals we have scored this or any other season, merely pointing out where we don't get goals from, and where if we are going to win the league we could improve greatly.

I can't explain it any clearer mate sorry.

What particular attribute?
Game intelligence?
Explain how if we had a player with that we would benifit because I think Xabi on top of his game is the most intelligent player around!
I also know that Keane once he breaks his duck is probably one of the best players in the league at playing tight passes in the box and scoring goals!
Game intelligence is one thing and we can criticise our players,thats OK but I hate it when our fans say..that goal was lucky...we would'nt have scored if this...blah blah!

A lot of us are lucky being here as we may have been a blow job rather than a sh@g!So does that mean we should not be here?
A goal is a goal is a goal....If it goes in and counts its as important as any other one regardless of it hits off Kuyts eyeberow or Gary Nevilles @rse!

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:23 am

Number 9 wrote:
s@int wrote:FFS I can't make it any clearer. I am not saying we don't score great goals, I am not saying we don't deserve to score all I am saying is we don't have a player with a particular attribute, and I think if we did we would be less likely to struggle for goals.

We have great players, players that can score incredible goals, what we don't have is a clever player in the final third who can play subtle little through balls.

I am not denegrating the goals we have scored this or any other season, merely pointing out where we don't get goals from, and where if we are going to win the league we could improve greatly.

I can't explain it any clearer mate sorry.

What particular attribute?
Game intelligence?
Explain how if we had a player with that we would benifit because I think Xabi on top of his game is the most intelligent player around!
I also know that Keane once he breaks his duck is probably one of the best players in the league at playing tight passes in the box and scoring goals!
Game intelligence is one thing and we can criticise our players,thats OK but I hate it when our fans say..that goal was lucky...we would'nt have scored if this...blah blah!

A lot of us are lucky being here as we may have been a blow job rather than a sh@g!So does that mean we should not be here?
A goal is a goal is a goal....If it goes in and counts its as important as any other one regardless of it hits off Kuyts eyeberow or Gary Nevilles @rse!

Explain how if we had a player with that we would benifit because I think Xabi on top of his game is the most intelligent player around!

How many balls does Xabi play into the box or infact for the last couple of years forward? He plays most of his passes sideways or out to the wide areas, he also plays to deep to be anything like effective in the final third.

I also know that Keane once he breaks his duck is probably one of the best players in the league at playing tight passes in the box

I dont know where you get this idea from, as he has NEVER been a creative second striker, just look back at his career and the number of assists he has made , he is a striker that plays from deep, not a player that makes and creates goals for others. Never has been never will be.

A goal is a goal is a goal....If it goes in and counts its as important as any other one regardless of it hits off Kuyts eyeberow or Gary Nevilles @rse!

Of course it is , but does that mean we shouldn't look for other ways to score ? Just because we score a lot of 20 yarders does that mean we should only shoot from outside the box.

I was pointing out we don't score a particular type of goal because we have no one who has that particular ability. I could also say we don't score many headers because we haven't got a Tony Hateley or John Toshack playing for us.

I think its one area of our game that needs improvement, I think we dominate in a lot of games, but don't get the rewards for our efforts because we don't have a player that can make a particular type of goal. That doesn't mean I think our players are cr@p, just that if we had a player with that ability we might not struggle to score so much.

Think of any great title winning team over the last 40/50 years. EVERY ONE of them had a creative second striker with the possible exception of Blackburn and arguably Chelsea (but they did have Gudjohnson and Cole)

Liverpool in the sixties - Stjohn
Liverpool in the seventies - Keegan/Dalglish
Liverpool in the eighties - Dalglish/Beardsley

Our rivals Cantona/Scholes/ Sherringham/ York / Rooney/Bergkamp etc

by **Number 9** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:45 am

s@int wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
s@int wrote:FFS I can't make it any clearer. I am not saying we don't score great goals, I am not saying we don't deserve to score all I am saying is we don't have a player with a particular attribute, and I think if we did we would be less likely to struggle for goals.

We have great players, players that can score incredible goals, what we don't have is a clever player in the final third who can play subtle little through balls.

I am not denegrating the goals we have scored this or any other season, merely pointing out where we don't get goals from, and where if we are going to win the league we could improve greatly.

I can't explain it any clearer mate sorry.

What particular attribute?
Game intelligence?
Explain how if we had a player with that we would benifit because I think Xabi on top of his game is the most intelligent player around!
I also know that Keane once he breaks his duck is probably one of the best players in the league at playing tight passes in the box and scoring goals!
Game intelligence is one thing and we can criticise our players,thats OK but I hate it when our fans say..that goal was lucky...we would'nt have scored if this...blah blah!

A lot of us are lucky being here as we may have been a blow job rather than a sh@g!So does that mean we should not be here?
A goal is a goal is a goal....If it goes in and counts its as important as any other one regardless of it hits off Kuyts eyeberow or Gary Nevilles @rse!

Explain how if we had a player with that we would benifit because I think Xabi on top of his game is the most intelligent player around!

How many balls does Xabi play into the box or infact for the last couple of years forward? He plays most of his passes sideways or out to the wide areas, he also plays to deep to be anything like effective in the final third.

I also know that Keane once he breaks his duck is probably one of the best players in the league at playing tight passes in the box

I dont know where you get this idea from, as he has NEVER been a creative second striker, just look back at his career and the number of assists he has made , he is a striker that plays from deep, not a player that makes and creates goals for others. Never has been never will be.

A goal is a goal is a goal....If it goes in and counts its as important as any other one regardless of it hits off Kuyts eyeberow or Gary Nevilles @rse!

Of course it is , but does that mean we shouldn't look for other ways to score ? Just because we score a lot of 20 yarders does that mean we should only shoot from outside the box.

I was pointing out we don't score a particular type of goal because we have no one who has that particular ability. I could also say we don't score many headers because we haven't got a Tony Hateley or John Toshack playing for us.

I think its one area of our game that needs improvement, I think we dominate in a lot of games, but don't get the rewards for our efforts because we don't have a player that can make a particular type of goal. That doesn't mean I think our players are cr@p, just that if we had a player with that ability we might not struggle to score so much.

Think of any great title winning team over the last 40/50 years. EVERY ONE of them had a creative second striker with the possible exception of Blackburn and arguably Chelsea (but they did have Gudjohnson and Cole)

Liverpool in the sixties - Stjohn
Liverpool in the seventies - Keegan/Dalglish
Liverpool in the eighties - Dalglish/Beardsley

Our rivals Cantona/Scholes/ Sherringham/ York / Rooney/Bergkamp etc

Well its welcome to the 00s mate!
I would overlook your criticism if we were not creating chances but we are...the forwards just are'nt on fire yet but it will come!

As for Alonso,in a 4-4-2 he will create plenty IF he can recapture his old form(which there are signs of)
As for the creative second striker??I never mentioned such a role,once Keane breaks his duck and relaxes the goals will come.What im saying is that on the carpet in close quarter situations he is one of the best around and will open defences wide!
No point talking about the past Saint,the game is totally different now,im not saying we are great but we sure as hell are'nt as bad or as depressing as what you and half the clowns on here would make out!

Im all for criticism but it needs to be balanced and realistic!
FFS to hear half the idiots on here you would think we were pointless in the PL and out of Europe already!
Not the case...stop moaning and take a reality check,think with your own head and stop listening to fools!
And get your @rse out of the past...We should have buried you 6 feet deeper the other day!! :laugh:

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:09 am

Past ? Rooney ? Tevez ? Chelsea have just got Deco because they haven't won the league since they sold Gudjohnson.

It's like garlic bread mate ..... its the future

Alonso at his peak in his first season only made 5 assists mate, he does his best work from too deep to be an effective goal maker, I am talking about players who do their best work in and around the oppositions penalty area, not around ours.

Look at when we have had our best seasons under Rafa 2004/5 and 2005/6 we had Garcia then, maybe not a great creative second striker , but we still managed to win a couple of cups with him.

Its something you either believe in or you don't, I believe we need a top creative second striker you obviously don't.

BTW what criticism ? You are the one criticising the players ... not me. All I was doing was pointing out that our players don't have much game intelligence. Hyypia isn't the fastest thing on two legs either. They are not criticisms just my opinion of the players attributes .

Unjustified criticism is when you slag players off ..... maybe by saying "I still think he is cack and always will!!
Never in a million years anywhere near good enough for this football club..get him out!Nothing personal but he is terrible.
He brings NOTHING to the team...Rafas worst signing,useless!! " or maybe "Bottom line is hes as shi.te as he is Brasilian!" or possibly even "As for Lucas!
I think he is a waste of space,with no use ever to LFC...every time I see him selected a little bit of sick comes up in my mouth. "

Now thats what I call slagging a player off ! I wonder who wrote all that ?

by **Judge** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:46 am

the early goal should have stood

however, we did have many shots on target, but nonetheless, we shouldve buried stoke regardless of ref error

by **Number 9** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:13 am

Lucas deserves it though plus I was pis,shed! :laugh:

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