Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:59 am

i see its day release time again

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:02 pm

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:I hope its a short term decision by Bamaga and he soon changes his mind. He is and has been one of the most knowledgable football posters on here and will be sorely missed, by me at least. Besides which he has always been a top bloke and a good mate.

Couple of questions:

Who are the other top posters you speak of

How is a man you have not met your mate ?

Do you want to rent some of my friends ?

Quite a few on here ... too many to mention, so probably easier just to say sorry Leon you don't make the list.

I chat to him on line, he doesn't call me a c*nt.....he's a mate not a friend.

I find it hard to believe you have any to spare, in fact I find it hard to believe you have any, but there are a lot of sad unlucky people in the world ....so maybe more people know you than I thought.

Sorry but that was funny.... good 'un.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:04 pm

bigmick wrote:For my part, I think the rumblings of discontent are very understandable. The suspicion which some people are voicing that far from being in the latter stages of a five year plan, we are nearing the end of a period of stagnation is not a surprise. Like I said on the other thread, we are nearing the end game now. The time for people to pour scorn on other fans opinions, to dismiss them as kneee jerkers, gimps, cocktail barmen, glory hunters etc etc etc is long gone. It's make or break for the manager and for many of the players at the club. I still think we're good enough to challenge if we give ourselves the opportunity, whether or not we will is an entirely different matter.

That's a pretty good assessment to be fair. For me, it's in the balance. I've been pretty baffled by Rafa's team selections in just about every game this season, his subs made no sense at Villa Park last weekend, the football has been pretty shoddy so far and our transfer dealings don't look so good to me. However, in just about every season since he's been at the club the manager has had little spells where he has had me (and everyone else) completely baffled by his line-ups, rotation choices, subs etc, but those games have usually been ones that we have lost. While I take very little comfort from the football we have been playing I do take comfort from the results we have achieved. We've seen his teams play poor football in patches in every season but then turn it around and play some great stuff later in the year so i'm hoping that's what happens this time out. It may well take an injury to a Kuyt or a Keane and suddenly the manager has to re-arrange things, gets lucky and it all work out. My fingers are crossed.

I've deffo noticed the manager seems to have become a bit Houllieresque (in his last two seasons) as time as gone on. playing people out of position and some strange quotes to the press etc but I haven't called time on him yet.

Also, looking at the 2 squads. I don'y think anyone can argue that the squad is stronger now than it was in Houlllier's last season, much stronger.

by **Number 9** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:20 pm

peewee wrote:i see its day release time again

Peewee Glitter?...Why?

by **Ciggy** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:10 pm

Number 9 wrote:
peewee wrote:i see its day release time again

Peewee Glitter?...Why?

Oh fuckinell forgot to tell nanny about our Brasshouse :laugh:

by **Kharhaz** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:47 pm

Scottbot wrote:
bigmick wrote:For my part, I think the rumblings of discontent are very understandable. The suspicion which some people are voicing that far from being in the latter stages of a five year plan, we are nearing the end of a period of stagnation is not a surprise. Like I said on the other thread, we are nearing the end game now. The time for people to pour scorn on other fans opinions, to dismiss them as kneee jerkers, gimps, cocktail barmen, glory hunters etc etc etc is long gone. It's make or break for the manager and for many of the players at the club. I still think we're good enough to challenge if we give ourselves the opportunity, whether or not we will is an entirely different matter.

That's a pretty good assessment to be fair. For me, it's in the balance. I've been pretty baffled by Rafa's team selections in just about every game this season, his subs made no sense at Villa Park last weekend, the football has been pretty shoddy so far and our transfer dealings don't look so good to me. However, in just about every season since he's been at the club the manager has had little spells where he has had me (and everyone else) completely baffled by his line-ups, rotation choices, subs etc, but those games have usually been ones that we have lost. While I take very little comfort from the football we have been playing I do take comfort from the results we have achieved. We've seen his teams play poor football in patches in every season but then turn it around and play some great stuff later in the year so i'm hoping that's what happens this time out. It may well take an injury to a Kuyt or a Keane and suddenly the manager has to re-arrange things, gets lucky and it all work out. My fingers are crossed.

I've deffo noticed the manager seems to have become a bit Houllieresque (in his last two seasons) as time as gone on. playing people out of position and some strange quotes to the press etc but I haven't called time on him yet.

Also, looking at the 2 squads. I don'y think anyone can argue that the squad is stronger now than it was in Houlllier's last season, much stronger.

Agree totally with both. Ive supported rafa throughout but it is his last year here with the club. Its only this seasons signings that raised the questions in my head. Ive tried every which way to understand how rafa works, and I cannot put my finger on it. One question I asked a while back, whoelse but rafa could have a competition named after him over what team he would pick?

Im not a happy clapper or a doom mongerer, but I am coming to the end of my patience. Maybe because United are catching up to our record, or simply because, I sit at the end of a match in which we are defeated and not question the result, but question the choices made. Baffled more than anything. I hope we do make a challenge this season but I cannot shake of this feeling that this seasons signings will not be much help.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:28 am

^ To be honest I'm starting to feel the same way but only because I'm disappointed with our style of football. I thought that by bringing in Sammy Lee our team would start to show more fighting spirit, but it seems that we've gone backwards. I think that the game against manure will really show us how far we can go with Rafa, because he really does have a good enough squad this time.

by **Sabre** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:35 am

As I've said many times I find understandable that fans get tired of a manager, and I'd never think that's unloyal. In Spain, 5 years of loyalty would make almost every one of you very loyal fans.

No, getting tired of a manager is a natural thing.

I did like the forum more 3 years ago than now. Not because more people agreed with me about Rafa, but because the manager wasn't questioned, the debates surrounding him weren't that frequent, and most of the posters focused more in the game itself than in the manager.

For instance, Bigmick, ScottBot and Stu to name a few are excellent player describers. They don't only know what they're on about they put it well. But now in Bigmick's mind there are other concerns, which are respectable, and he spends less posts talking about players or analysing a game and more talking about the concerns. Why? because he thinks that debate is the most relevant for the club at the moment. Understandable.

That's why I think a new manager would be great for the discussion (but not for the club IMO), as most debates on rotation, or "are we heading somewhere with this manager after 4 years" would be dispelled, and all the posters naturally would focus more on the game itself. To my disgrace, Stu has also left a bit his usual posts about describing players, and he's more focused on Rafa (and angry about it).

That's the bad thing about footie, feelings count, and you post about what you care at the moment.

by **Number 9** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:52 am

Sabre he asked for 5 years and had them!
This is the fifth year,no more excuses,can Rafa deliver??
The season is long.......We only have two goals...The EPL or the CL!
One of each or both will do,either may be enough,winning neither is not an option!
One of the two will suffice!!
FIVE years?

???

by **bigmick** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:59 am

I don't agree actually that Rafa has to win the Champions League or the Premiership to vindicate him being offered another contract. FWIW I think that apart from the money side of things, as far as Rafa's tenure is concerned the Champions League is almost but not quite irrelevent. Now I know that will have some spluttering on their cornflakes, but here's why:

Firstly as I've said on a number of occasions now, in my opinion the English teams are so far ahead of all the other clubs in Europe (simply because of their buying power) that progression to the quarter finals at least for the English clubs is practically a formality. Now people got very hot under the collar when I first suggested it, it was almost sacrilage it seemed to "belittle" our achievements in the competition. I maintain however that if you look at how Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal have fared in the last three or four seasons, quite apart from our own successes it backs the argument up. That's not to say "it's easy", or "any fool could get us there", ot "we should p!ss it every year then", but it is to say that I predict here and now that the four English teams will reach the quarters this year, and I'd be staggered if more than one let me down on the prediction. I have to put those "that's not to say"s in, because we all know peoples penchant on here for paraphrasing what you're saying into a totally different meaning, "so you're saying we should play the same team, in every single game?" being the most obviouis example, (someone did actually say last time "so what you're saying is we should p!ss it every year?")

Anyhow given that (if indeed it is a given), I wouldn't be offering the manager another contract on the basis that we have won three ties on from a point which we ought to reach anyway.

The second reason why I think the Champions League is less important when deciding the future of the manager, is the fact that he already shown on many occasions that he is a fantastic manager in the Champions League. I would even go as far as saying that even if Standard Liege had put us out, if you were wanting a manager to maximise potential in the Champions League then rafa should have a job for life. Lets face it, he's very good at it and he doesn't need to win the thing to prove the fact, not to me anyway.

NO, as we pretty much all know, it's down to the league. He doesn't have to win it for me though, feck no. If he launches a full, meaningful and sustained challenge whilst employing sensible selection techniques, feck it give him another couple of years. After the last match though, for the first time in about six months I'm having grave reservations. If he's seen the light, he's not learning from it enough and putting his sunglasses on put it that way.

by **Rush Job** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:37 am

bigmick wrote:I don't agree actually that Rafa has to win the Champions League or the Premiership to vindicate him being offered another contract. FWIW I think that apart from the money side of things, as far as Rafa's tenure is concerned the Champions League is almost but not quite irrelevent. Now I know that will have some spluttering on their cornflakes, but here's why:

Firstly as I've said on a number of occasions now, in my opinion the English teams are so far ahead of all the other clubs in Europe (simply because of their buying power) that progression to the quarter finals at least for the English clubs is practically a formality. Now people got very hot under the collar when I first suggested it, it was almost sacrilage it seemed to "belittle" our achievements in the competition. I maintain however that if you look at how Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal have fared in the last three or four seasons, quite apart from our own successes it backs the argument up. That's not to say "it's easy", or "any fool could get us there", ot "we should p!ss it every year then", but it is to say that I predict here and now that the four English teams will reach the quarters this year, and I'd be staggered if more than one let me down on the prediction. I have to put those "that's not to say"s in, because we all know peoples penchant on here for paraphrasing what you're saying into a totally different meaning, "so you're saying we should play the same team, in every single game?" being the most obviouis example, (someone did actually say last time "so what you're saying is we should p!ss it every year?") Anyhow given that (if indeed it is a given), I wouldn't be offering the manager another contract on the basis that we have won three ties on from a point which we ought to reach anyway.

The second reason why I think the Champions League is less important when deciding the future of the manager, is the fact that he already shown on many occasions that he is a fantastic manager in the Champions League. I would even go as far as saying that even if Standard Liege had put us out, if you were wanting a manager to maximise potential in the Champions League then rafa should have a job for life. Lets face it, he's very good at it and he doesn't need to win the thing to prove the fact, not to me anyway.

NO, as we pretty much all know, it's down to the league. He doesn't have to win it for me though, feck no. If he launches a full, meaningful and sustained challenge whilst employing sensible selection techniques, feck it give him another couple of years. After the last match though, for the first time in about six months I'm having grave reservations. If he's seen the light, he's not learning from it enough and putting his sunglasses on put it that way.

While i agree with what you say, all 4 prem sides sould be looking at last 8 at least, i dont think its down to buying power alone. You also need good management, if it was just down to buying power we wouldnt be anywhere near the final and the likes of Real and Barca would be peppering around the final year in year out aswell.
Also why arent the likes of the bitters and aston villa out performing the lowly Rangers who have a transfer budget similar to a mid table championship side.
We havent had a side in the UEFA cup final (unless a slept though one) since middlesbrough got shat on by seville, yet our 5th 6th place teams have a bigger transfer budget than half of the teams in the cl group stage.
I also agree that a decent challenge should be enough, it would also be interested to see him (Rafa) under the likes of DIC and just who would be his number one targets if he could within reason go for anyone, not that i think he`d go and bring in 4/5 20mil+ players in one window but it would deffo be interesting IMO.

by **bigmick** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:50 am

I think the UEFA Cup is slightly different Rushie for a couple fo reasons. Firstly, the clubs in it have to play a huge amount of games, and it can probably be argued that the whole thing is detremental to their League position. Last season, despite going quite well Bolton ended up fielding a weakened team in Europe simply to maintain their Premeirship status, and they aren't the first.

Secondly, as the money on offer is nowhere near what is there for the Champions League, teams aren't going to sacrifice their best players in league matches.

Thirdly, it's probably not totally correct that all our teams in the UEFA would have a budget which would dwarf all the other countries teams. Everton for instance before they bought the fella from Standard Liege had a net spend this Summer probably in excess of 10 million in deficit (which puts into sharp focus the nonsense people talk about our situation) while Middlesboro aren't big spenders either. Tottenham certainly are, but when you are playing in a league as tough as the Prem and trying to qualify for Europe again, it's hard to maintain a squad good enough and big enough to compete in all those games.

Fourthly it reverts to knock out a bit earlier, so teams are not quite so protected by the group format. As we showed last season, it's possible in the group format to make a complete nonsense out of the whole thing and then still qualify fairly comfortably.

As for your point about Barcelona and the like, well yes they always qualify for the quarters as well. In truth, it's pretty much always the same nine or ten teams squeezing into the eight slots. Quite why people (not you seemingly) find this so difficult to accept is quite beyond me, that is after all exactly how the big clubs designed the competition in the first place.

by **Number 9** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:09 am

bigmick wrote:I think the UEFA Cup is slightly different Rushie for a couple fo reasons. Firstly, the clubs in it have to play a huge amount of games, and it can probably be argued that the whole thing is detremental to their League position. Last season, despite going quite well Bolton ended up fielding a weakened team in Europe simply to maintain their Premeirship status, and they aren't the first.

Secondly, as the money on offer is nowhere near what is there for the Champions League, teams aren't going to sacrifice their best players in league matches.

Thirdly, it's probably not totally correct that all our teams in the UEFA would have a budget which would dwarf all the other countries teams. Everton for instance before they bought the fella from Standard Liege had a net spend this Summer probably in excess of 10 million in deficit (which puts into sharp focus the nonsense people talk about our situation) while Middlesboro aren't big spenders either. Tottenham certainly are, but when you are playing in a league as tough as the Prem and trying to qualify for Europe again, it's hard to maintain a squad good enough and big enough to compete in all those games.

Fourthly it reverts to knock out a bit earlier, so teams are not quite so protected by the group format. As we showed last season, it's possible in the group format to make a complete nonsense out of the whole thing and then still qualify fairly comfortably.

As for your point about Barcelona and the like, well yes they always qualify for the quarters as well. In truth, it's pretty much always the same nine or ten teams squeezing into the eight slots. Quite why people (not you seemingly) find this so difficult to accept is quite beyond me, that is after all exactly how the big clubs designed the competition in the first place.

Paint it any way you want to!
I love Rafa as much as anyone,BUT if he does'nt win the League or C/L I would like to see a new manager at LFC!
Dont ask who cause i dont have that answer,just someone better!

by **Rush Job** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:26 am

bigmick wrote:I think the UEFA Cup is slightly different Rushie for a couple fo reasons. Firstly, the clubs in it have to play a huge amount of games, and it can probably be argued that the whole thing is detremental to their League position. Last season, despite going quite well Bolton ended up fielding a weakened team in Europe simply to maintain their Premeirship status, and they aren't the first.

Secondly, as the money on offer is nowhere near what is there for the Champions League, teams aren't going to sacrifice their best players in league matches.

Thirdly, it's probably not totally correct that all our teams in the UEFA would have a budget which would dwarf all the other countries teams. Everton for instance before they bought the fella from Standard Liege had a net spend this Summer probably in excess of 10 million in deficit (which puts into sharp focus the nonsense people talk about our situation) while Middlesboro aren't big spenders either. Tottenham certainly are, but when you are playing in a league as tough as the Prem and trying to qualify for Europe again, it's hard to maintain a squad good enough and big enough to compete in all those games.

Fourthly it reverts to knock out a bit earlier, so teams are not quite so protected by the group format. As we showed last season, it's possible in the group format to make a complete nonsense out of the whole thing and then still qualify fairly comfortably.

As for your point about Barcelona and the like, well yes they always qualify for the quarters as well. In truth, it's pretty much always the same nine or ten teams squeezing into the eight slots. Quite why people (not you seemingly) find this so difficult to accept is quite beyond me, that is after all exactly how the big clubs designed the competition in the first place.

Yer i take your point/s mate but IMO the format of the UEFA cup now also helps the stronger teams.
I dont want this to turn into a UEFA cup debate but i think there is a parallel, if it was down to money alone the likes of the bitters (yes not a huge net spend but they had trouble bringing players in

and were forced into selling Johnson) should be there or there abouts year in year out.
I take your point about it becoming a knockout comp a round or two sooner because thats kinda also my point, yes we should be getting out of our group without much trouble but its then were your manager earns his corn, like i say if it was just down to money we shouldnt have been anywhere near the final on our last two visits.
Its a small point mate, i know there is no disagreement that Rafa is one of the best in the world over two legs and also its the league where he`s got it to prove.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:08 am

As far as the UEFA cup goes I think there are a couple of points to remember. Firstly that a lot of the teams in the UEFA cup arn't very experienced in Europe, teams like Bolton, Everton, Villa are teams on the rise after years spent in mediocrity. Their aims are to "enjoy" Europe whilst struggling to maintaining their League position, or even trying to break into the top four.

Experience is vital in Europe has as been proven time and again over the years, so this plus the fact that UEFA cup teams tend to be a lot more volatile........ one good season followed by a poorer one(probably as their best players are sold to the ever eager bigger clubs) and its easy to see why teams from "easier leagues" have a big advantage.

The other think to remember is that the 3rd team in the group stages of the CL goes into the UEFA cup. So any of the "big boys" that happen to fail for whatever reason has a second bite at the cherry in the lesser comp.

Back on topic, I think the time for excuses is past, its put up or shut up time. We either challenge for the title or changes have to be made.

Someone mentioned Houllier in an earlier post, and I have to agree that some of Rafa's decisions have been as baffling as any that Houllier made.

Most worrying for me has been our transfer activities, to an outsider it looks as if rather than a planned strategy to improve the team its been a series of impulse/panic buys (more like my wife at the Christmas sales than a well thought out buying policy), and while its much too early to be definitive, in all honesty some of them look neither suitable nor good enough to take us forward.

Rafa may have a master plan and formation in mind that due to injuries / Olympics/ late purchases etc. he hasn't yet been able to reveal yet, but if not .........we may struggle.

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