People cant just blame rafa - For everything

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Postby bigmick » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:59 pm

stmichael wrote:we'd got O'Neill he wouldn't have been given the money to spend that he's had at Villa. ?)

Well no doubt somebody will produce figures one way or another, but can it actually be that O'Neill has spent more money on Aston Villa's team during his reign than Rafa has at Liverpool? Even allowing for the fact that Rafa took over an infinitely superior team to the one the Irishman inherited, I'd be surprised if that was the case, even though they've just spent 12 mill on Milner and we haven't officially got Riera for 9 or whatever it is yet.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:16 pm

bigmick wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:But I ask you lot this. If Rafa fails to deliver meaningful silverware this season (CL or League) or at least a decent title challenge (2nd at LEAST) would you consider a change in management is needed?

Yes most definately, but I think that's kind of standard around here and it's a debate thats already been and gone. I think that particularly the title challenge (and I'm not saying he has to win it, just to challenge) is probably a bare minimum for most people at least. I would even go as far as saying that for some, meaningful silverware and no title challenge wouldn't be enough, and in truth I'm very much in that bracket myself.

The time for talking about second choices in the transfer market (because while people are keen to point out we wanted Alves we also wanted Norberto Solano and Stelios Gianokopolis) is over, about dodgy e-mails, refereeing decisons, bad luck, injuries, the fixture list etc etc etc etc is all done now. This is where we are, it's game on and Rafa knows it.

This is why we're seeing a drastic reduction in the styling, an attempt to buy players who are proven in the Premiership etc etc. We aren't seeing players rested after International breaks, we aren't debating the delayed gazelle effect or even resting players before European games.



No, we're into the end game now. I believe that we've come this far, and the manager deserves the opportunity for one last throw of the dice, and deserves the full support of the club and the fans while he's doing it. Pretty soon we'll know whether it was a miracle or a myth, tactical genius or tactical guesswork, a five year plan or a hotchpotch of scattergun stabs in the dark.




One thing you can say about Rafa is that whatever you think of him, he has been a liucky manager like Napolean was a lucky general and it's a fantastic quality to have. Had Torres not produced a goal out of nothing away at sunderland, and Gerrard not scored a screamer in the dying seconds against Middlesboro, we could quite easily have drawn our first three matches. The pressure on his shoulders would then have been absolutely immense. As it is though, we are sitting pretty and like last season we have the opportunity to kick on. Will he have learnt from last seasons folly of Fratton Park though?  We shall see, there were worrying signs yesterday I have to say if I'm honest.

Last chance salloon, i think so yes. Am i happy about saying that , most certainly not .There you go , i agree pretty much with your post mick. I think it's unfair the stick he is getting after only 3 league games ,but it's to be expected i suppose . After all we're only second behind chelsea on goal difference . We've got to be positive now and build on the good start (obviously not playing well ) we've had and try and get our players gelling and have a good crack at the title.
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Postby SouthCoastShankly » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:44 pm

The only reason I asked is that to me the overwhelming opinion on here is to let Rafa get away with anything on the basis that he either needs:

a) more money
b) more time
c) both a & b

The problem I see is that in my opinion he has had both money and time yet we still make the same mistakes as a club and he still makes the same tactical mistakes as he did in his first season. The first season you could say he was adapting to English football but 5 years on and we are still playing quality players out of position for no apparent reason?
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Postby doherty.burgling.goons » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:45 pm

rafa has spent £200 million taken us to 2 champions league final yet our reputation is lower than when houlier was there. simply because we have added nothing to the prem with the sort of :censored: players we have. prime example was last years pre season in china,where we played some part time Chinese team and struggled. after the match finished you had the embarrassing sight of our players looking for people to swap shirts with...but the players we have are so small time that even these chinese players had zero interest in getting their shirts. against standard they were hardly busting their gut to get our players shirt....we have nobodies playing for us. and its taken this bloody long for the fans to realize rafa is a kuntz,which means we now have nobody fans who don't know their stuff, fans who can't spot a junk player and come on here slagging off those of us who can. you are right its not just rafa to blame half of its is brain dead lazy thicko fans who has kept junk managers in a job. we need a new bigger stadium to let the real fans in instead of these brain dead cretins.....you'll never walk alone .

then you have managers coming out in public saying rafa is a prat....thats not a sign of a great manager. more managers have come out slagging rafa off than morinho.

rafa is a scumbag bully who is in football management for the thrill of bullying players rather than the football. when your manager can't smile after a 8-0 record champions league win, but seems to be smiling when we go out of champions league finals or semi finals,then you have to wonder whats his game.
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Postby Simari » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:49 pm

Ciggy wrote:But we have to move on whats done is done, we are still unbeaten for the first time in 14 years our first 3 openers, so even though we have been playing awful its not a bad stat is it?

You've got that very wrong Ciggy.

We were unbeaten well into October last year. Arsenal and us had our first losses on the same day (10th game i believe).
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Postby burjennio » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:50 pm

doherty.burgling.goons Posted on Sep. 01 2008,16:45rafa has spent £200 million taken us to 2 champions league final yet our reputation is lower than when houlier was there. simply because we have added nothing to the prem with the sort of players we have. prime example was last years pre season in china,where we played some part time Chinese team and struggled. after the match finished you had the embarrassing sight of our players looking for people to swap shirts with...but the players we have are so small time that even these chinese players had zero interest in getting their shirts. against standard they were hardly busting their gut to get our players shirt....we have nobodies playing for us. and its taken this bloody long for the fans to realize rafa is a kuntz,which means we now have nobody fans who don't know their stuff, fans who can't spot a junk player and come on here slagging off those of us who can. you are right its not just rafa to blame half of its is brain dead lazy thicko fans who has kept junk managers in a job. we need a new bigger stadium to let the real fans in instead of these brain dead cretins.....you'll never walk alone .

then you have managers coming out in public saying rafa is a prat....thats not a sign of a great manager. more managers have come out slagging rafa off than morinho.

rafa is a scumbag bully who is in football management for the thrill of bullying players rather than the football. when your manager can't smile after a 8-0 record champions league win, but seems to be smiling when we go out of champions league finals or semi finals,then you have to wonder whats his game.


tell you what, if you produce one shred of evidence for anything you just said in the next 10 mins I'l not flame you
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Postby Emerald Red » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:57 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Sabre wrote:That's a very good post Ciggy.

The "problem", or more than the problem the explanation to this bashing is that the patience of many ended a long ago. Quite simply if a boring game like yesterdays was under normal circunstances, it would be just a boring game, but when the patience is over, you'll have "I told you so", "I lost confidence in Rafa a long ago" and "this is not the way" messages at the least sign.

Quite simply if you beat the archenemy in 15 days instead, you'll have massive euphoria.

This, at the end of the day is nothing more than natural human football reactions.

Arsenal fans do not lambast Rafa that much I hear you say, but Arsenal fans have not so much success in their history, and have not waited that long since the last league.


My point is to realise that all we're reading is actually quite natural when it comes to football and fans. I just ask not to insult other views for thinking different. For me, Liverpool hasn't won since the nineties because winning the premiership is a much tougher task against much richer clubs, and for me, the only way to compete against that is to give a project continuity, because coming from a country that change coaches as underwear, I know a new coach won't be magical. Perhaps it will be magical one out of a million coaches, but I preffer stabilty and give Rafa the time we agreed to give him to develop his project: the duration of his contract.

My girlfiends dad is liverpool fan he is 56 years old he watch liverpool for 45 years.

When i asked him what you think is reason we haven't won any thing and i got response i was thinking we have no width.

He said last real winger i remember is barnes and i have to agree with him.

You can keep putting no winning the prem due to money as excuess as arsenal don't spend big and have won it twice and blackburn wasn't massive spenders yet won it.

You just need to setup a good team with width good movement pace and finishing and you can beat any one on the day.

You asked him why we haven't won anything? We've won more silverware from the turn of 2K than anyone else in the Prem. I don't care if they are mostly cups, but that's a fact. As for his reply of not having width since JB, well, he's wrong there, because our last decent winger was McManaman. We also had a few players in that time that weren't bad as wingers either.

Oh, and Arsenal have won it more than twice, and Blackburn spent big bucks at the time to win theirs.

It's a commonly acknowledged fact that class wide men are hard to come by these days. People who think that all our problems are just due to a lack of two of these are living in dreamland as far as I'm concerned.
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Postby Ciggy » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:13 pm

doherty.burgling.goons wrote:rafa has spent £200 million taken us to 2 champions league final yet our reputation is lower than when houlier was there. simply because we have added nothing to the prem with the sort of :censored: players we have. prime example was last years pre season in china,where we played some part time Chinese team and struggled. after the match finished you had the embarrassing sight of our players looking for people to swap shirts with...but the players we have are so small time that even these chinese players had zero interest in getting their shirts. against standard they were hardly busting their gut to get our players shirt....we have nobodies playing for us. and its taken this bloody long for the fans to realize rafa is a kuntz,which means we now have nobody fans who don't know their stuff, fans who can't spot a junk player and come on here slagging off those of us who can. you are right its not just rafa to blame half of its is brain dead lazy thicko fans who has kept junk managers in a job. we need a new bigger stadium to let the real fans in instead of these brain dead cretins.....you'll never walk alone .

then you have managers coming out in public saying rafa is a prat....thats not a sign of a great manager. more managers have come out slagging rafa off than morinho.

rafa is a scumbag bully who is in football management for the thrill of bullying players rather than the football. when your manager can't smile after a 8-0 record champions league win, but seems to be smiling when we go out of champions league finals or semi finals,then you have to wonder whats his game.

p!ss off WUM.
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Postby burjennio » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:18 pm

People forget that up in previous seasons we could have had a couple of highly rated widemen in Quaresma, Simao and even Danny Alves (who could easily be converted from RB since he never defends anyway :) and it wasnt Rafa who annexed the deals it was everyones favourite chief exec, Rick Parry
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Postby Simari » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:24 pm

burjennio wrote:People forget that up to very recently we could have had a couple of highly rated widemen in Quaresma, Simao and even Danny Alves (who could easily be converted from RB since he never defends anyway :) )and it wasnt Rafa who annexed the deals it was everyones favourite chief exec, Rick Parry

True, but Rafa has been working within constraints and buying players "with lots of possibilities". He should just stand firm and say NO.

3-4 years back, I would have accepted that he didn't have much choice in taking chances with unproven players. This year and moving forward, it has to be about bringing in 1 quality player at a time.

Yes we may have a big squad - but mostly mediocre cover in all positions. Riera, Babel, Kuyt and Yossi on the flanks? That is mediocre at best. None of them are wide players . In fact, El-zhar is just about as good as them on the flanks and he didn't cost us much at all.
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Postby faldo » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:23 pm

doherty.burgling.goons wrote:rafa has spent £200 million taken us to 2 champions league final yet our reputation is lower than when houlier was there. simply because we have added nothing to the prem with the sort of :censored: players we have. prime example was last years pre season in china,where we played some part time Chinese team and struggled. after the match finished you had the embarrassing sight of our players looking for people to swap shirts with...but the players we have are so small time that even these chinese players had zero interest in getting their shirts. against standard they were hardly busting their gut to get our players shirt....we have nobodies playing for us. and its taken this bloody long for the fans to realize rafa is a kuntz,which means we now have nobody fans who don't know their stuff, fans who can't spot a junk player and come on here slagging off those of us who can. you are right its not just rafa to blame half of its is brain dead lazy thicko fans who has kept junk managers in a job. we need a new bigger stadium to let the real fans in instead of these brain dead cretins.....you'll never walk alone .

then you have managers coming out in public saying rafa is a prat....thats not a sign of a great manager. more managers have come out slagging rafa off than morinho.

rafa is a scumbag bully who is in football management for the thrill of bullying players rather than the football. when your manager can't smile after a 8-0 record champions league win, but seems to be smiling when we go out of champions league finals or semi finals,then you have to wonder whats his game.

hey interesting stuff but rafa is going nowhere, even though i'm not a big fan of his i know the things he has won will see him at liverpool for another 5 years minimum. but i do agree the time has come to let him know what exactly turns us fans on and what does not.

now that man city has come into all this money, we could actually return to the 90's and early 2000's of playing eufa cup football. its not like we have been in the champions league all that long. its only because they stretched it to 4 teams we finally got in.plus i'm certain eufa will want to cut the teams to 3 once they have got wind of another prem club with big spending owners.
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Postby Rush Job » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:44 am

doherty.burgling.goons wrote:rafa has spent £200 million taken us to 2 champions league final yet our reputation is lower than when houlier was there. simply because we have added nothing to the prem with the sort of :censored: players we have. prime example was last years pre season in china,where we played some part time Chinese team and struggled. after the match finished you had the embarrassing sight of our players looking for people to swap shirts with...but the players we have are so small time that even these chinese players had zero interest in getting their shirts. against standard they were hardly busting their gut to get our players shirt....we have nobodies playing for us. and its taken this bloody long for the fans to realize rafa is a kuntz,which means we now have nobody fans who don't know their stuff, fans who can't spot a junk player and come on here slagging off those of us who can. you are right its not just rafa to blame half of its is brain dead lazy thicko fans who has kept junk managers in a job. we need a new bigger stadium to let the real fans in instead of these brain dead cretins.....you'll never walk alone .

then you have managers coming out in public saying rafa is a prat....thats not a sign of a great manager. more managers have come out slagging rafa off than morinho.

rafa is a scumbag bully who is in football management for the thrill of bullying players rather than the football. when your manager can't smile after a 8-0 record champions league win, but seems to be smiling when we go out of champions league finals or semi finals,then you have to wonder whats his game.

Shame, they only let him out once a week.
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Postby hishhish » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:48 am

Here is an article from Hansen.

It is unfortunately painfully truth. Tactics, passion, and history can only get you so much. You need money, and I think the idea of negativity from not winning for so long, is defenitely possible. The Boston Red Sox "jinx" comes to mind, that was a barren period of 80 plus years.

Alan Hansen: Liverpool face critical time
This is the most critical time in the history of Liverpool Football Club.

By Alan Hansen
Last Updated: 2:17PM BST 01 Sep 2008

Comments 4 | Comment on this article

Looking to the future: Rafael Benitez will need the right investments to be made if his side are to challenge at the top Photo: Getty Images
If they do not succeed in building a new stadium and generating the money to bring in the players that can compete with Manchester United and Chelsea, the fear grows, month by month and year by year that they will never win the title back. And for the supporters who have backed the club like no other, that realisation will be very hard to take.

When David Moores agreed to sell the club to their American owners, it was on the basis that, if Liverpool were to challenge for the title again, they had to leave Anfield. Gates of 44,000 cannot compete with the 76,000 at Old Trafford, the money generated by the corporate boxes at the Emirates or the bottomless financial pit Roman Abramovich has enabled Chelsea to dip into. That the new stadium in Stanley Park is in further doubt is nothing short of a disaster for the long-term future of the club.

Liverpool have not won the title for 18 years and despite the fact that they have taken seven points from their first three games, that length of time creates a negativity around the club. Manchester United had to wait 26 years before regaining the title but in 1993, when Sir Alex Ferguson finally dragged them back to the summit, it was possible to win the championship with teams that were merely good. These days you have to be great to take the Premier League and Liverpool are a long way from great.

Under first Gerard Houllier and then Rafael Benitez, Liverpool have spent big money on players who have not pushed the club forward that much. And as much as I love Anfield I have to accept that the only way Liverpool are going to raise the sustained finances to compete month in and month out at the top of the Premier League is with a new stadium.

But I don’t just worry for Liverpool in the long term. I am already concerned for this season. It might seem strange to be so negative when Liverpool have done reasonably well in their opening games and are second in the Premier League. But it is those 18 years without a championship that contribute to those negative feelings because they create so much baggage around the club. We are all used to seasons starting on a tidal wave of optimism and seeing hopes dashed a third of the way in.

Yesterday at Aston Villa, Liverpool turned up with a determination that they would not lose rather than with any real plan to win the game. This was summed up by the fact that they did not have a single shot on target in the 90 minutes. Every supporter of every club in the Premier League would take winning over entertainment, but the truth is that in five matches Liverpool have never remotely looked like playing well. Watching Manchester United overcome Portsmouth last Monday, their passing and movement was way ahead of anything Liverpool have put together. And of the squad that Benitez has assembled, far too much depends on just two players if Liverpool are to win - Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard. It has become fashionable to question just how good Gerrard is but you just have to examine Liverpool’s displays without him to get your answer. He is every bit as valuable as Cristiano Ronaldo is to Manchester United.

Robbie Keane’s impact has been less than dramatic but in his defence I would say he is not a left-winger which is how he was used at Villa Park yesterday. He had one great chance and he was not quite quick enough and did not quite have the confidence to take it. But Keane should be the least of Liverpool’s worries.

What should worry their supporters is their one-dimensional style of play with no width that makes it easier to defend against Liverpool than any other leading side. To have taken so many points from so few chances, Liverpool either needed to be incredibly good or incredibly lucky and the blunt truth is that they have been lucky.
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:03 am

well i see hansen is talking a bit of sense though no doubt some on here will question his knowledge
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Postby Rush Job » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:06 am

peewee wrote:well i see hansen is talking a bit of sense though no doubt some on here will question his knowledge

I couldnt agree with it more Peewee, hard to ever disagree with the man TBH, best pundit going by a fookin mile, slightly biased like. :)
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