Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ciggy** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:52 am

First off I hate internationals, as we usually have important games after them and there is no time to prepare, players flying all over the world, playing in different time zones so when they get back they have jet lag and cant play that weekend or are poor when they play.

But its a blessing in disguise this time round a chance for Gerrard & Torres to get fit.

We have had Reina, Arbeloa, Alonso & Torres with the spanish team all summer they have had two weeks holiday and Torres is probably knackered from the euros in all honesty and it looks like its catching up.

Babel injured all summer then goes to Beijing for the Olympics, not fully fit nor has he had much of a chance to be training with his new team mates.

Kuyt aka (Forest Gump) who had a woeful start to last season, got his act together the end of last season, then goes to the euros and does the same for Holland.
Ran his @rse off against Liege over the two legs.
Will join up with Holland this week and do the same for their two qualifiers. So will come back knackered for the manc game. Hasnt had a proper break in over a years football.

Then we have Mascherano & Lucas in China for over a month, plus playing their WC qualifiers before it having been on long haul flights in countries with 10 hours time difference.
Had no time off what so ever the whole summer.

People will say I am looking for excuses for poor performances but all these things have to come into factor.

Dossena has now been called up for Italy because he plays for us, so he will be off with Italy now, instead of being able to get used to his new surroundings.

Degen, Dossenna, Keane and Riera will probably be 4 first teamers this season yet none of them will be training with each other for a fortnight.

Riera will need time to settle in that puts us back another month.
Our whole playing style has changed from playing Torres upfront with Gerrard behind, the system worked so well the end of last season, but yesterday our 2 most influential players where missing had Gerrard been fit I think we would have seen that formation from last season yesterday at Villa Park.

The sub choices where mind boggling yesterday, but before kick off I would have snapped your hand off for a draw.
Its just Villa wernt up to much and the 3 points where there for the taking if the proper subs where utilised.

But we have to move on whats done is done, we are still unbeaten for the first time in 14 years our first 3 openers, so even though we have been playing awful its not a bad stat is it?

Should Rafa have bought Keane for 20 million? Probably not but we needed another striker to replace Crouch its ok people moaning address the wings Rafa but if torres where to be out for a month or two we would have no striker. So he cant win in that situation.

World class wide men cost a fortune and we havent got it, so far 10 million pound has been spent this summer after player sales.
So that doesnt add up does it? For the team who got to the CL semi final last season plus the new TV money where is it?
The yanks said they had the money for Barry but Rafa couldnt spend it on Barry so where is that 18 million gone?

Rafa has to sell Voronin, finnan, Pennant and Itantje today to pay for Riera.
So that doesnt add up does it that we have money when we dont.
What happens next summer when we have to sell to buy again? Who are we going to sell? Torres ? Gerrard?

People are forgetting these facts to just to lambast the manager again, Kuyt is NOT a winger yet is played there because we have no one else because there is no money to buy anyone else. Yet Kuyt gets the blame for playing there.

We have just had Hicks & Gillett issue a statement that Barry is to expensive to the worlds media, I mean Cmon this is Liverpool football Club not West Bromich Albion but WBA havent said to the worlds media about a transfer target being to expensive.

Everything is not right behind closed doors there is to much in house fighting with Parry, Rafa, Hicks, Gillett, us.
All this effects the players aswell no new stadium more sh!t about to hit the fan.

Rafa makes mistakes ofcourse he does he is human we all do and you Rafa bashers are you so perfect? No far from it no one is.

So people need to sit back and look at the wider issues instead of just bashing the manager and players on a constant basis taking all things into account its not as bad as it seems.

Once these internationals are out the way, and we have all the players back fit and the team starts to get to know each other you will see a big difference.
We will get better we cant play any worst lets face it.

We dont play Arsenals total football but I bet we win more than them this season. yet Wenger will not be slated in the media or by his own fans.

Things will come good people need to have patients, its going to be an exciting season we have so much to look forward to we are still in for four tropheys just have faith.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:38 am

That's a very good post Ciggy.

The "problem", or more than the problem the explanation to this bashing is that the patience of many ended a long ago. Quite simply if a boring game like yesterdays was under normal circunstances, it would be just a boring game, but when the patience is over, you'll have "I told you so", "I lost confidence in Rafa a long ago" and "this is not the way" messages at the least sign.

Quite simply if you beat the archenemy in 15 days instead, you'll have massive euphoria.

This, at the end of the day is nothing more than natural human football reactions.

Arsenal fans do not lambast Wenger that much I hear you say, but Arsenal fans have not so much success in their history, and have not waited that long since the last league.

Also to be fair, Rafa in Anfield doesn't lack support, we haven't heard boos against him.

My point is to realise that all we're reading is actually quite natural when it comes to football and fans. I just ask not to insult other views for thinking different. For me, Liverpool hasn't won since the nineties because winning the premiership is a much tougher task against much richer clubs, and for me, the only way to compete against that is to give a project continuity, because coming from a country that change coaches as underwear, I know a new coach won't be magical. Perhaps it will be magical one out of a million coaches, but I preffer stabilty and give Rafa the time we agreed to give him to develop his project: the duration of his contract.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:42 am

Sabre wrote:That's a very good post Ciggy.

The "problem", or more than the problem the explanation to this bashing is that the patience of many ended a long ago. Quite simply if a boring game like yesterdays was under normal circunstances, it would be just a boring game, but when the patience is over, you'll have "I told you so", "I lost confidence in Rafa a long ago" and "this is not the way" messages at the least sign.

Quite simply if you beat the archenemy in 15 days instead, you'll have massive euphoria.

This, at the end of the day is nothing more than natural human football reactions.

Arsenal fans do not lambast Rafa that much I hear you say, but Arsenal fans have not so much success in their history, and have not waited that long since the last league.

My point is to realise that all we're reading is actually quite natural when it comes to football and fans. I just ask not to insult other views for thinking different. For me, Liverpool hasn't won since the nineties because winning the premiership is a much tougher task against much richer clubs, and for me, the only way to compete against that is to give a project continuity, because coming from a country that change coaches as underwear, I know a new coach won't be magical. Perhaps it will be magical one out of a million coaches, but I preffer stabilty and give Rafa the time we agreed to give him to develop his project: the duration of his contract.

My girlfiends dad is liverpool fan he is 56 years old he watch liverpool for 45 years.

When i asked him what you think is reason we haven't won any thing and i got response i was thinking we have no width.

He said last real winger i remember is barnes and i have to agree with him.

You can keep putting no winning the prem due to money as excuess as arsenal don't spend big and have won it twice and blackburn wasn't massive spenders yet won it.

You just need to setup a good team with width good movement pace and finishing and you can beat any one on the day.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:45 am

I suppose the threads around here go from one extreme to the other ... " How long has he got", 'Rafa out' to its "not all Rafas faults" So I suppose I cannot begrudge an excuse thread, but TBH I dont really like either extremes.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:45 am

For instance with wide players you rate, I read in another thread, Vicente and Joaquin. Both have lost international status, the first due to long injuries -- he seems to come back-- the second for not being convincing since he left Betis.

Both of them would be expensive though, more expensive than Riera, a player that got an international cap recently, and whose club Espanyol will be less demanding than Valencia in terms of money.

I agree we need width, as many have already mentioned is something anyone can see. But what's not so obvious is to bring the proper player at the proper price.

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:54 am

LegBarnes wrote:
Sabre wrote:That's a very good post Ciggy.

The "problem", or more than the problem the explanation to this bashing is that the patience of many ended a long ago. Quite simply if a boring game like yesterdays was under normal circunstances, it would be just a boring game, but when the patience is over, you'll have "I told you so", "I lost confidence in Rafa a long ago" and "this is not the way" messages at the least sign.

Quite simply if you beat the archenemy in 15 days instead, you'll have massive euphoria.

This, at the end of the day is nothing more than natural human football reactions.

Arsenal fans do not lambast Rafa that much I hear you say, but Arsenal fans have not so much success in their history, and have not waited that long since the last league.

My point is to realise that all we're reading is actually quite natural when it comes to football and fans. I just ask not to insult other views for thinking different. For me, Liverpool hasn't won since the nineties because winning the premiership is a much tougher task against much richer clubs, and for me, the only way to compete against that is to give a project continuity, because coming from a country that change coaches as underwear, I know a new coach won't be magical. Perhaps it will be magical one out of a million coaches, but I preffer stabilty and give Rafa the time we agreed to give him to develop his project: the duration of his contract.

My girlfiends dad is liverpool fan he is 56 years old he watch liverpool for 45 years.

When i asked him what you think is reason we haven't won any thing and i got response i was thinking we have no width.

He said last real winger i remember is barnes and i have to agree with him.

You can keep putting no winning the prem due to money as excuess as arsenal don't spend big and have won it twice and blackburn wasn't massive spenders yet won it.

You just need to setup a good team with width good movement pace and finishing and you can beat any one on the day.

wenger won the title with players he got either at a young age on cheap and had to build with them and took a number of years or players he spent a fair amount of money on .

and blackburn at the time were massive spenders for those years - transfer records on shearer and sutton to name a couple .

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:58 am

Sabre wrote:For instance with wide players you rate, I read in another thread, Vicente and Joaquin. Both have lost international status, the first due to long injuries -- he seems to come back-- the second for not being convincing since he left Betis.

Both of them would be expensive though, more expensive than Riera, a player that got an international cap recently, and whose club Espanyol will be less demanding than Valencia in terms of money.

I agree we need width, as many have already mentioned is something anyone can see. But what's not so obvious is to bring the proper player at the proper price.

They was just players in my mind I was just pointing out what can be show in 5 mins of thinking and rafa has had 4 years to get some wingers in no way you can say thats ok for a manager at this level.

Plus i don't get paid 40 grand a week to manage liverpool so it sin't my job to scout for him.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:00 pm

O and by the way i don;t blame rafa for every thing , players need to show more and the whole foundations of the club need reworking for us to reach our goals.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:04 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Sabre wrote:For instance with wide players you rate, I read in another thread, Vicente and Joaquin. Both have lost international status, the first due to long injuries -- he seems to come back-- the second for not being convincing since he left Betis.

Both of them would be expensive though, more expensive than Riera, a player that got an international cap recently, and whose club Espanyol will be less demanding than Valencia in terms of money.

I agree we need width, as many have already mentioned is something anyone can see. But what's not so obvious is to bring the proper player at the proper price.

They was just players in my mind I was just pointing out what can be show in 5 mins of thinking and rafa has had 4 years to get some wingers in no way you can say thats ok for a manager at this level.

Plus i don't get paid 40 grand a week to manage liverpool so it sin't my job to scout for him.

Of course you aren't. Gary Mac is supposed to know a lot of this and he said Voronin was a great signing, no-one is infalible. And by the way, both players at their best are a joy to watch

My point is simple, quality is expensive in Spain. And in England is extorsion. Keane, who has quality, has costed 20M and that's a big weight in his shoulders. But actually if you want to compete these days in terms of signings you have to pay those amounts.

My point is it's not either easy nor cheap to bring top quality width players.

by **bunglemark2** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:08 pm

Sabre...If you limit your search to English clubs, then you pay inflated prices. Is Milner worth 12.5 M ? Is Keane worth 20M ? Is Barry worth 18M ?
I think not....
I think LFC needs to be a bit more creative and widen the search, outside of England and Spain...
I said yonks ago we should look for another "Vidic"; I touted that wee German lad Lahm as well; I've seen some of the players Ireland played against in European competition over the years and a fair few have impressed....You don't pat inflated and stupid prices for them...

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:10 pm

Sabre wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Sabre wrote:For instance with wide players you rate, I read in another thread, Vicente and Joaquin. Both have lost international status, the first due to long injuries -- he seems to come back-- the second for not being convincing since he left Betis.

Both of them would be expensive though, more expensive than Riera, a player that got an international cap recently, and whose club Espanyol will be less demanding than Valencia in terms of money.

I agree we need width, as many have already mentioned is something anyone can see. But what's not so obvious is to bring the proper player at the proper price.

They was just players in my mind I was just pointing out what can be show in 5 mins of thinking and rafa has had 4 years to get some wingers in no way you can say thats ok for a manager at this level.

Plus i don't get paid 40 grand a week to manage liverpool so it sin't my job to scout for him.

Of course you aren't. Gary Mac is supposed to know a lot of this and he said Voronin was a great signing, no-one is infalible. And by the way, both players at their best are a joy to watch

My point is simple, quality is expensive in Spain. And in England is extorsion. Keane, who has quality, has costed 20M and that's a big weight in his shoulders. But actually if you want to compete these days in terms of signings you have to pay those amounts.

My point is it's not either easy nor cheap to bring top quality width players.

But other teams manager to get wingers who don't have money to burn ?

Portsmouth
Sunderland
Spurs
Westham

Just to name a few.

Remeber they don't have to be world class just to be able to play that postions as a manager i would hope i could bring in a ok player and train him to be effective in that posistion or why the hell am i a manager.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:35 pm

I'm sitting on the fence with Rafa. I will admit my feelings change with every game, but that is normal I suppose especially when you get caught up emotionally with the results.

But I ask you lot this. If Rafa fails to deliver meaningful silverware this season (CL or League) or at least a decent title challenge (2nd at LEAST) would you consider a change in management is needed?

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:50 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:I'm sitting on the fence with Rafa. I will admit my feelings change with every game, but that is normal I suppose especially when you get caught up emotionally with the results.

But I ask you lot this. If Rafa fails to deliver meaningful silverware this season (CL or League) or at least a decent title challenge (2nd at LEAST) would you consider a change in management is needed?

Yes.

For me this is a crucial season. So far I've seen a building on the team. And hopefully with Riera and Keane we'll have most of what we need to compete.

If we don't, if we start swapping players we considered a bit ago key or for who we paid important amounts of money (Babel for instance is a good example of important investment), then I'd see signs of wandering.

Of course if we're third and we had Gerrard and Torres injured for 6 months, yet the team made a good football, then I wouldn't require the second place.

In a nutshell, I trust the manager will do a good season, but if he doesn't, my patience is not limitless mate.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:50 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:But I ask you lot this. If Rafa fails to deliver meaningful silverware this season (CL or League) or at least a decent title challenge (2nd at LEAST) would you consider a change in management is needed?

Yes most definately, but I think that's kind of standard around here and it's a debate thats already been and gone. I think that particularly the title challenge (and I'm not saying he has to win it, just to challenge) is probably a bare minimum for most people at least. I would even go as far as saying that for some, meaningful silverware and no title challenge wouldn't be enough, and in truth I'm very much in that bracket myself.

The time for talking about second choices in the transfer market (because while people are keen to point out we wanted Alves we also wanted Norberto Solano and Stelios Gianokopolis) is over, about dodgy e-mails, refereeing decisons, bad luck, injuries, the fixture list etc etc etc etc is all done now. This is where we are, it's game on and Rafa knows it.

This is why we're seeing a drastic reduction in the styling, an attempt to buy players who are proven in the Premiership etc etc. We aren't seeing players rested after International breaks, we aren't debating the delayed gazelle effect or even resting players before European games.

No, we're into the end game now. I believe that we've come this far, and the manager deserves the opportunity for one last throw of the dice, and deserves the full support of the club and the fans while he's doing it. Pretty soon we'll know whether it was a miracle or a myth, tactical genius or tactical guesswork, a five year plan or a hotchpotch of scattergun stabs in the dark.

One thing you can say about Rafa is that whatever you think of him, he has been a liucky manager like Napolean was a lucky general and it's a fantastic quality to have. Had Torres not produced a goal out of nothing away at sunderland, and Gerrard not scored a screamer in the dying seconds against Middlesboro, we could quite easily have drawn our first three matches. The pressure on his shoulders would then have been absolutely immense. As it is though, we are sitting pretty and like last season we have the opportunity to kick on. Will he have learnt from last seasons folly of Fratton Park though? We shall see, there were worrying signs yesterday I have to say if I'm honest.

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:54 pm

It could be worse. Watching the game yesterday just brought back memories of a lot of people on here who wanted O'Neill as our manager over Rafa when Houllier got sacked.

If we'd got O'Neill he wouldn't have been given the money to spend that he's had at Villa. I doubt he'd still be manager now and we certainly wouldn't have Torres playing up front (or would you rather have John Carew?)

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