Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:41 pm

I'm pretty sure I didn't say any of those players were of 'so much' use to us, but implying ('dross') they were simply on the books, contributing as much as for example well known cannon fodder as Diao, Diouf or Cheyrou is incorrect. They were brought in, gave a good account of themselves, but weren't quite up to it. There is a key difference in saying they were deadwood and of no playing value to, they were of OK playing value, but not quite up to it ultimately.

We sold a playing value in order to acquire another playing value.

That's the significance of it.

by **Sabre** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:55 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:I don't think it ought to be. People like to dismiss the spending power of our immediate rivals as though a minor inconvenience, when it's obvious to most people that it's much more important than that. It's not like we had a World-beating team when Rafa took over, which means that money is the most important factor.
I know there's many who thrive on beating Benitez with a stick, but you have to be realistic - the scum paid more for a Central Defender 6 years ago than we have ever paid for any player in our entire history. (If we wish to be pedantic, almost 5 times more than OUR record spend on a defender.)

Sh*tski are a different beast, in as much as they buy indiscriminately, and have been known to sign players merely to prevent them joining us. (SWP.)

How can people overlook such an important reason why we haven't landed number 19? I think many of them live in a dreamworld where we are still dominant. The fact is, we have achieved more than we should have under Rafa for the money we have spent. Look at the team which won the Champions' League. Quite peobably the cheapest side to EVER win the big one.

Cut the man some slack.

Spot on.

Liverpool are impatient because they have a huge reputation, but I don't think it's fair Rafa pays the price of that impatience.

Should Rafa has to be sácked, it must be because it's clearly seen that there's a decline in our football. For instance, look at Barcelona. Undisciplined players, problems in the dressroom, and when you look at the squad, you can't say they don't have a great one. Lots of problems that probably could be solved with another manager, one that puts more discipline.

But, can we look at Rafa's Liverpool and say we're in decline?

Do we see key players wanting to leave to Spain or somewhere else to win titles? Or do they instead want to stay because they see that's the better place for it?

Is our team getting better?

Those are the questions that should be used as reasons to back Rafa or not, not whether it's a lot of years ago we haven't won the league. Rafa is not responsible of those years.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:58 pm

These weren't nobodies, they weren't Diao's, Diouf's, Cheyrou's, who simply occupied the wage bill.

The point is if they had stayed they WOULD have simply occupied the wage bill. We lost nothing of value from the first team with the obvious exceptions which I named (Sissoko and Garcia) who may have got the odd game.

If you bring in someone better to replace someone rather than as a squad player, the player replaced becomes by definition surplus to requirements.

Ie if we buy Messi, Villa , Arshavin and Silva, I don't think Voronin would have much further value to the team.

by **Gerrard30391** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:00 pm

lakes10 wrote:In fact for me he has only 7 games at the start of the new football year to show he can do it.

I agree totally,

You only have to lookat Avram Grant, EPL title challenge AND CL Final is still not good enough, it may resort to that i think.

He needs to change his ways i think. This means consistent starting 11 when fit. Also, some new signings i think.

by **bigmick** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:08 pm

So far it's a good thread this and I'm heartened that the old trenches haven't been dug yet by most people. It's a very interesting question this "should we give him one more year only thing" and I suppose it depends on your standpoint.

The first thing to say is that if we once again abjectly fail in the League next season, there will still be plenty of wholly legitimate excuses for the manager. There always is for any manager. Here's a couple if I stare into my crystal b0ll0cks.

Injuries: We've been very fortunate in the last couple of seasons with injuries. Unbelieveably fortunate. Some might say it's because we rotate and that's their privilage, but for whatever reason, we've been very lucky. I know some will say "what about Agger?" but although he is a good player, he is only one player. Some began to desperately search for the "injuries" card earlier this season, then Alonso promptly got fit again, reminded everyone what we were actually missing as opposed to what we thought we might be missing and it all got kind of forgotten about.

I'm talking though about Gerrard, Torres, Reina, Carragher, Masherano. One or more of those sustaining permanent, season long injuries and we'll have all the excuses we'll ever need. God forbid if it's Gerrard, Torres or both then we'd be talking about excuses as to why we didn't finish top six never mind top four. Anyhow, my point is that at some stage we will sustain injuries and in all likelyhood they will be worse than they have been this season. Law of averages and all that old b0ll0cks, but I'll leave Owzy to explain all that

The injury card, underused this season could yet prove to be the trump in the pack next term.

Money: Manchester United and Chelsea have got more of it than us. They are able to buy more players than us, for more money. This isn't going to change next season or in the forseeable I shouldn't think. So whoever is our manager, if they don't challenge for the league you can expect the "but how the feck are we supposed to compete?" card making an appearance long before we're into the Easter period.

International breaks: There will once again be some this season. This will involve many of our players being away for a bit, catching an aeroplane and playing for their countries. Sometimes, the matches they play in have periods within them which will be quite physical. Fortunately though, all the other top teams have players which also play in similar matches. Nevertheless, the "pointless International" card is a favourite when in the aftermath of such a game we get one of our bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiips.

The "boardroom shenanigans" card. So dog-eared is it, so bent are the corners from overuse that it has lost some of its effect but even even so, it will definately make an appearance at various stages next season. Unfortunately the team kind of lessen the impact of the BS card by managing to go on sustained winning runs even when the worst infighting is being played out. It kind of makes it harder to swallow when we do actually lose on and then it is put down to an email a month or so ago. Anyhow, dog-eared or not it is ready and waiting.

The rest of the pack. Take your pick from dodgy refereeing decisions, missed chances, games being "controlled" but the right result not gained, bad luck etc etc etc etc.

Now believe it or not the above is not a pop at Rafa or the Happy clappies. It's simply a breakdown of the fact that if we choose so to do, we can make a stack of excuses at the end of every season. I'm sure Avram Grant is walking around saying "ifitweren'tforSteveBennet" or "ifitweren'tfortheslippypitch" and lets be honest he may have a point. There are always going to be reasons why a team doesn't challenge for, never mind win the league. What we have to seriously ask ourselves as a club is, do we properly expect to compete for the title? If we do, and not just say that we do but genuionely belive we should, then it probably ought to be Rafa's last season. If we don't though, if we actually underneath it all don't believe we have the finances to compete, then you may as well stick wiuth the manager because he generally gives us a good shot at the Champions League.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:09 pm

Should Rafa has to be sácked, it must be because it's clearly seen that there's a decline in our football

WRONG!!!! Its not necessary to see a decline in our football, but a stagnation! If we arn't progressing we are in effect going backwards because the present level of "success" is not good enough. While 4th place and CL QUALIFICATION MAY BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR OUR OWNERS, ITS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND I PRESUME MOST LIVERPOOL FANS.

I have higher expectations than to simply qualify for the CL every season, and I believe we have the players with one or two additions to fullfill them. This season we will find out if we have the manager!

I believe we could have done much better last season than we did. I believe we badly underperformed and should have finished much closer to our rivals. Fighting for 4th place with Everton, Portsmouth, City and Villa is not my idea of a succesful season.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:12 pm

Look at the team which won the Champions' League. Quite peobably the cheapest side to EVER win the big one.

Yes, with mostly Houllier players.

He has spent millions after that, and with what ? 4th spot, oh yes, all is fine and dandy.

by **Emerald Red** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:13 pm

s@int wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
s@int wrote:
metalhead wrote:lakes, Mourinho inhereted an excellent team, then bought carvalho for 19m, who turned out to be top class and got drogba for 27m. Did rafa buy a defender for 19m? no

s@int, sabre always gets it wrong!!! JUST KIDDING SABRE

Would you have honestly expected Grant to get to the CL final, lose on penalties and run the mancs to the last game of the season in the league mate?

Maybe there are more good managers out there than you think?

There's no evidence that Grant was a good manager. He just got lucky against us in the CL. In fact I'd go as far as saying that he blew Chelsea's chances by lack of decisions in some situations in the league.

If anything, I just think this is proof that a team full of quality just picks itself and performs on it's own merit. Mourinho inherited a quality side built already. A good base and spine that was already there. He just had to tweak it in some areas, much like Rafa now has to do this summer as he's now got that spine sorted.

Using the same arguement Rafa just got lucky when he won the CL and that Rafa blew it in the league by making too many bad decisions?

If anything, I just think this is proof that a team full of quality just picks itself and performs on it's own merit.

So basically what you are saying is rather than waste money on a top manager we should sack Rafa bring in some cheap nobody and spend the money we save on better players ?

Using the same arguement Rafa just got lucky when he won the CL and that Rafa blew it in the league by making too many bad decisions?

Maybe, but with the exception that can be argued that Chelsea, with all their riches and a squad as extravagant, couldn't afford such lapses or mistakes by a manager, as they'd be even more glaringly obvious. Compare our CL winning team to that of Chelsea's now. No comparison, really. We needed a bit of luck, as all teams do when winning things. I could say that luck is the difference, but I'd be telling a lie. We need to spend a bit of money if we are to correct our weak areas this season. The wide areas. The difference between being Champions in the league imo.

by **LFC2007** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:14 pm

You could say we lost a bit of value to the first team in losing Garcia, in fact I'd argue that bit creativity he provided is something we've lacked this season. Sissoko was exceptional in his first season (who knows if he'd have regained form before he left? His form at Juve by all accounts is pretty good), whilst Bellamy was decent at times, as was Cisse. More potent than Kuyt and Voronin? I'd say so for certain, overall potential effect on season? Possibly more effective in finishing poorer teams off, potentially leading to a more sustainable title challenge. If all of them were of such limited playing value they probably wouldn't have commanded fees in the region that they did.

We had to sell players who were of reasonable playing value in order to sanction deals to sign other players.

One criticism of our transfer dealings in the past has been our inability to sign players up quickly. It's more than conceivable that because of this constraint of having to sell in order to raise funds, we've either missed out on more important targets, or weakened our bargaining position.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:16 pm

There's no evidence that Grant was a good manager. He just got lucky against us in the CL.

And equally there is no evidence he is a bad one.

Thats bollo.x, especially bout the lucky thing against us. Well yes Riise Og was lucky, but unlike Mouriniho and Rafa himself, he didnt try toover complecate things and make weird tacical decisisons as Mouriniho did in the past. He kept it simple and beat us, simple.

by **bigmick** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:16 pm

s@int wrote:I believe we could have done much better last season than we did. I believe we badly underperformed and should have finished much closer to our rivals. Fighting for 4th place with Everton, Portsmouth, City and Villa is not my idea of a succesful season.

Of course I agree with this Saint. There are many reasons why we didn't challenge, most of which have already been covered in depth. I was thinking about something this morning though while I was taking the dog for a walk.

Here's a question. If Manchester United, Arsenal or Chelsea had started with Dirk Kuyt up top in their first twenty odd league games do you think they would have got as many points as they did? No, neither do I.

Cue the thought police, "so you're saying the reason we didn't challenge for the League is all Dirk Kuytys fault now? Fecking unbelieveable some people on here :angry:

".

by **Emerald Red** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:21 pm

s@int wrote:
Should Rafa has to be sácked, it must be because it's clearly seen that there's a decline in our football

WRONG!!!! Its not necessary to see a decline in our football, but a stagnation! If we arn't progressing we are in effect going backwards because the present level of "success" is not good enough. While 4th place and CL QUALIFICATION MAY BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR OUR OWNERS, ITS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND I PRESUME MOST LIVERPOOL FANS.

I have higher expectations than to simply qualify for the CL every season, and I believe we have the players with one or two additions to fullfill them. This season we will find out if we have the manager!

I believe we could have done much better last season than we did. I believe we badly underperformed and should have finished much closer to our rivals. Fighting for 4th place with Everton, Portsmouth, City and Villa is not my idea of a succesful season.

We scored 116 goals this season (more than anyone else). Had one of the best defenses in the league (what's new there?) and have gotten closer under Benitez's reign as manger in points difference behind the eventual winners (which is getting closed every season since he took over). I don't think that's stagnation.

I agree with the rest of what you said. We did under perform without question, though had we just have picked up a mere 6 points more, that could have been regarded as challenging and opinions would have swayed. It was that marginal. But is it not proof that we are on the verge? I agree, that this season is a test to see if we really have progressed. I've a feeling that we won't be disappointed.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:22 pm

s@int wrote:
Should Rafa has to be sácked, it must be because it's clearly seen that there's a decline in our football

WRONG!!!! Its not necessary to see a decline in our football, but a stagnation! If we arn't progressing we are in effect going backwards because the present level of "success" is not good enough. While 4th place and CL QUALIFICATION MAY BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR OUR OWNERS, ITS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND I PRESUME MOST LIVERPOOL FANS.

I have higher expectations than to simply qualify for the CL every season, and I believe we have the players with one or two additions to fullfill them. This season we will find out if we have the manager!

I believe we could have done much better last season than we did. I believe we badly underperformed and should have finished much closer to our rivals. Fighting for 4th place with Everton, Portsmouth, City and Villa is not my idea of a succesful season.

Now thats spot on. :nod

by **Emerald Red** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:25 pm

bigmick wrote:Here's a question. If Manchester United, Arsenal or Chelsea had started with Dirk Kuyt up top in their first twenty odd league games do you think they would have got as many points as they did? No, neither do I.

No. But who else would you have played?

by **LFC2007** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:27 pm

Cue answer: "Crouch, and with it an ability to challenge for the title".

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