Liverpool FC Forum

by **Gerrard30391** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:21 pm

Quite bluntly, yet nothing but the truth, we were :censored:

. Thats not even worthy of UEFA Cup football never mind winning the Premiership or Champions League! We're never going to win the league when we don't have class wingers. OK, looks like one is on the way and i would but Babel on the opposite flank and you have to people that can run at defenders. Will it happen? Most places, yes. With Rafa in charge, No. He persists in putting strikers on the wings! Kuyt for one and he spends millions on Keane and shoves him on the left, after his first plan of Lucas failed. Bringing Aurelio on is really an attacking match winning substitution isn't it? When :censored:

have the likes of Walcott, who would leave anybody in the league in his shadows. Im sorry, there's got to be big, big changes at this football club if any sniff off the Premier League title is going to land itself in the Liverpool trophy cabinet. Another striker is needed also, as Ngog was completely out of his depth.

Mate when you are in a title race without one or two of your best players you still look to getting the 3 points , many of us know that even without torres and gerrard , we should be getting 3 points from here , we've got strength in dept and we have players capable of doing it , its just bizzare decisions by the manager and where he plays them and what instructions he sets them , rafa was cautious today , playing for a draw , his substitutions have to be the worst i have ever seen , he left 2 of the best livewires we have on the bench , babel on El zhar , care to explain that , would any of the rival managers done what he has done with the subs today?

I think not!

by **lakes10** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:23 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
bigmick wrote:I haven't seen any of the game so can't comment on that, but I will say this. Some of the people on here need to make their minds up. Fair play to Lando, Sabre, Emerald Red etc etc who are fully paid up, died in the wool happy clappers (and though I rarely agree with them totally I respect them for it). I've had dogs abuse of some others on here though, who on the back of a 0-0 draw are suddenly calling Rafa all the names under the sun

And they call me fickle

You gotta laugh mick ,i tell yer mate this place is getting worse .

hey hold on, wait till i start, I am giving Rafa a chance this year......well a small one at least.

he will 2 more game after Gerrard and Torres get fit to show he can get our team playing well.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:25 pm

I've only listened to the match on the radio today ,so i'll give an opinion on it after i've watched it when i get home . First half souned awful ,but the second seemed better .

by **andy_g** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:25 pm

by **Rush Job** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:25 pm

Scolari seemed quite happy with his home draw.
There wont be many tougher away games this season so a draw isnt a bad result, what is bad is we still arent creating much, if at all. Hopefully this Reira can add the spark needed, i dont think we are that far away, the most important thing is we`re solid at the back and not looking like conceding.
I dont want to use it as an direct excuse but we missed that bit of drive and direction that SG would have given us, whether it would have made a difference in terms of a goal i cant say but he would of definitely would have added a little intent. Losing Torres obviously didnt help our course either but again still no real excuse for not even getting a pass back in to their keeper.
I think we expected them to fly out at us and they expected the same and when they didnt it left two teams playing deep with neither willing to press their opponent high up, which made for a very slow and boring first half, the second was improved but by then we were missing another top player so it wasnt going to be any easyer and it no doubt gave them a lift.
Dossena looked like he was told to watch his back but when he did get forward he put in good balls, the only player to trouble their keeper, Lucas looked of the pace which in a way is understandable, Kuyt also looked tired which again is kinda understandable, Masch was Masch, Alonso was ok and no more, Keane tried his best but still looks a little disjointed (for want of a better term) and when the service dosent come he goes deap looking for it which is fine if theres someone in his place upfront but pointless if there isnt, you can see the effort is there but he cant give him self the ball in a good possition, i dont think anyone should be judging him just yet lets wait till the lad is given a few decent chances to score, the shocking thing is we havent done this yet.
Apart from this we were very solid agaist a good young attacking side although i think Arbeloa had another shocker, he doesnt look bothered at times and did zip going forward.
So i`ll conclude in terms of points from the games we have played we are doing on the good side of ok, no one is doing better but if points were given for attacking play we`d be down the bottom, we need to improve this and im sure when we see SG, Masch and Torres are in the side it will improve.
Its often at times like this you look for a good result in big game like a derby to get you firing on all cylinders either that or a big kick in the ar$e, hopefully we can have both Torres and SG back in time, either way roll on utd.

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:27 pm

If these are the comments after three games into the season and unbeaten im dreadin it when we do get beat

by **Emerald Red** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:27 pm

bigmick wrote:I haven't seen any of the game so can't comment on that, but I will say this. Some of the people on here need to make their minds up. Fair play to Lando, Sabre, Emerald Red etc etc who are fully paid up, died in the wool happy clappers (and though I rarely agree with them totally I respect them for it). I've had dogs abuse of some others on here though, who on the back of a 0-0 draw are suddenly calling Rafa all the names under the sun

And they call me fickle

The thing is, Mick, I'm being realistic most of the time. We're obviously not in the best form in the world, but we're still a hard nut to crack at the back, and so long as we are, we've always got the chance to steal games. Performances will improve. They have to. The fact that we're still unbeaten is testament to our character at the back when we're playing like sh*t. We aren't caving in and leaking goals.

As such, today I already set my expectations for the game based on our current form. I didn't think we would win, and I was right. 1-1 was my prediction and it ended stalemate. However, I'm worried for our lack of attempts on goal. We seriously cannot expect to perform so badly at the business end of the pitch and expect to challenge for the title. I'm actually starting to wonder if our problems lie elsewhere other than out the wings. I'm thinking we need a very creative player in the middle, because at the moment, Xavi Alonso just doesn't seem to be pulling enough strings for me.

by **tubby** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:29 pm

I remember people throwing around knee-jerk reactions last season. We had a good chance today to go top by a few points but we showed no ambition at all. Instead we played for a draw right from the start.

by **lakes10** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:30 pm

andy_g wrote:

5 games we have been bad in mate.

by **tubby** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:33 pm

Im sure once we get a real shalacking by Arsenal, Chelsea or Utd then people will actually realise how :censored:

we have been playing.

by **lakes10** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:38 pm

bavlondon wrote:Im sure once we get a real shalacking by Arsenal, Chelsea or Utd then people will actually realise how we have been playing.

i hope Rafa has got it sorted before then. the hard truth is Rafa is not a great Prem manager, he has had time to work it out but instead has spent most of his time thinking about the CL. it might be too late for him to learn.

by **J*o*n*D*o*e** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:38 pm

same here not seen the match as it was my sons birthday so spend the day at the safari park but its seems like i havnt missed much from the reactions ive read.

with all thats gone on this summer with both clubs and the managers this was probably the result that was going to happen, neither would of wanted to lose and set up that way, i reckon there both happy with a 0.0 and move on and put the whole sorry mess behind us.

by **Effes** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:48 pm

A good post on RAWK:

"I'm just going to throw this out there.......

... and say we haven't addressed our problems over the close season. At all.

We haven't had a genuine winger since McManaman - I know it, you know it, in fact there's probably people in Siberia who know it.

Now then, playing narrow in the midfield is acceptable if you have two quality, attacking full-backs, who are quick enough and good enough to bomb up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, twice a week. We don't have that. We don't have a Clichy - Sagna/Eboue combination. In fact, we don't even have an Evra - Neville, where one will push forward at every given opportunity and provide overlapping quality, whilst the other can put in a very good cross from almost anywhere in the opponents half. What we have instead is Dossena, who is willing to push forward but doesn't appear to cross a ball that well, and Arbeloa. When Arbeloa signed, I was confused - we had Finnan on the right who was doing Neville's job - putting in good crosses on a regular basis. Arbeloa was shifted to left back, and on the back of keeping Messi in a straightjacket at the Camp Nou, excelled there for a while. He looked adventurous, quick, and generally like a ball-playing, attacking full-back.

I don't know what's happened since those first few months, but his confidence seems to be completely drained - the amount of times he has space in front of him, or is in a good crossing position, only for him to turn back inside and play the safe option is hugely frustrating. With Finnan apparently resigned to the bench or available for a transfer, that makes Arbeloa our first-choice right-back. If that had have been the case after his first few months here then I'd have no problem with it whatsoever, but at the moment he's playing well within himself and that doesn't help anybody.

Going back to the midfield, and the lack of width - it's been our biggest problem for as long as I can remember, and we've not even come close to solving it over the past 5 years. We don't have anybody willing to beat a man on the outside and put a cross in. None of Benayoun, Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, Gerrard or El Zhar are wingers, yet they're the guys filling our wide positions. Pennant is probably the closest we've got, but for whatever reasons he always seems to lack confidence - we know he can beat people and put a half-decent cross in, he just never does.

Today we started with two centre forwards out on the wings - and say what you like about Keane and Kuyt being 'versatile, clever, willing to play anywhere for the team', but they are both strikers. It's as simple as that. Neither of them are rapid, neither are fantastic at beating their man in a 1v1 situation, neither of them are great crossers of the ball. Yet today, they're expected to do the job of a winger. Confused yet? I certainly am. It's starting to feel like the good old days of having Heskey as a defensive centre-forward, playing out on the left hand side of a midfield of Murphy, Gerrard, Hamann, and McAllister - and it's frustrating to see. I don't want to get too deep into the Robbie Keane thing, firstly because it's a whole new can of worms, and secondly because I'm not quite sure why we actually signed him. But that's a completely different discussion.

Apparently the Riera deal is close to being finalised. I don't know much about the lad at all, so all I'm hoping for is that he is prepared to run down the outside of a full-back and put crosses in from the byline on a regular basis. We can but hope.

So moving on from the complete lack of width from both the defence and midfield, we are left with two problems that have been the cornerstone of the Benitez era - a complete lack of atacking fluidity and a dreadful approach to set-pieces.

Under Benitez, we've had two players capable of playing the old no10 role - Luis Garcia and Yossi Benayoun. Luis was fantastically frustrating, capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, and Yossi isn't far short. The thing is though, they're both victims of a system that just doesn't suit them. Last year we had untold success with Gerrard playing behind Torres - the first time we've really tried the one-up-top with a supporting attacker free to roam. That position is made for players like Benayoun and Luis Garcia, but instead, too often they're asked to try and be wingers. It doesn't work. Yossi can change a game from the centre of the field, if you give him the ball. He's a clever player with an eye for a pass, but his crossing is woeful. I cringe whenever I see him line up out wide - we may as well play with 10 men, as he just isn't a threat. The game just passes him by. He needs to be in that free role that Gerrard utilised so brilliantly last season, floating around and going wherever he likes. The problem with that is, now we've switched back to a 4-4-2, there is no free role.

With no free role, and a flat midfield four, comes defensive solidity. With defensive solidity rarely comes free-flowing attacking play. Our squad as a whole isn't quick enough to play a counter-attacking game, so we need to attack as a unit. When we play 4-4-2, the two central midfielders are defensive, even when Gerrard plays there. He spends more time in the centre circle than around the opposition box, which is no use to anyone as he's one of the best attacking midfielders in the world. So we have a four-man midfield, two of whom are playing as anchors, and the other two - who are now relied upon to provied creativity from the wings - who are either centre forwards, central midfielders, or full-backs being asked to play out wide. It's no wonder the team is so static. Today we started with two forwards out wide, who both naturally do their best work in and around the edge of the penalty area, and finished the game with a full-back and a central attacker out there. So, for the whole game today, we didn't have a single player at any given time who is naturally used to playing out wide - so more often than not, the team is static and moves break down.

I don't see why we've gone from the Gerrard-Torres through-the-middle combination that worked so well last year, back to a rigid 4-4-2, when we clearly don't have enough quality going forwards for it to work (or rather, I do see why we've changed, it's the Robbie Keane thing, but like I said that's a whole new discussion). The team is still too static, nobody moves to show for the ball, and there just aren't enough options and runners when Gerrard and Alonso pick up the ball in the middle of the park.

Is it starting to remind you of the Houllier era at all yet? Now don't get me wrong - I completely admire Rafa Benitez, and wouldn't want anybody else at all running the club, but I'd like to see more attacking gusto from him. Bringing on a full-back when we're after a goal isn't going to work. Playing said full-back on the wing certainly isn't. We've seen it over the past few years with Riise, I hope we don't start to see it as often with Aurelio too.

Talking of Fabio Aurelio, when he signed he was rumoured to have an immense left peg and a venomous free kick. What a crock of rubbish. Nobody at Liverpool Football Club has been able to strike a decent dead ball since the days of Berger and Redknapp. Hamann was a danger to whoever was in the wall, Riise was a danger to whoever was in row 32, and Gerrard's going to be in danger himself if he keeps taking free-kicks that haven't been teed up for him first. He's great at striking a moving ball, but striking direct free-kicks and corners? Give it up, you can't do it. Neither can Alonso, neither, apparently, can Aurelio. But that's OK, at least in terms of the corners - because we only have one player capable of attacking the ball in the air anyway. Step forward Mr Sami Hyypia. Take a bow. You can attack headers well. Messrs Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Gerrard, Plessis, and also previously Crouch... go and watch videos of Sami. See how he starts at the edge of the box, then runs towards the goal? See how he jumps? See how he heads the top of the ball so it doesn't go flying over the crossbar? Good. Now, you go and try it. Please. Pretty please.

I'm not sure if the set-piece thing is down to the players or the coaching staff - players should surely be tought where to stand for a corner, who runs where, and where the delivery should go. It really isn't hard. That's why it's so frustrating to see a group of three or four players, all 6' tall, standing under the ball when it's crossed in from a set piece, watching it get cleared by a defender who's attacked it. It really is schoolboy stuff, and something which should've been addressed many, many years ago, but for some reason has been ignored.

The last sentence above, is the important one. We all know what our problems have been recently - no movement, no width, no wingers, no attacking threat from set-pieces... and if we know what the problems are, then the coaching staff do, too. They know much more than us, yet for me, they aren't doing enough to try and solve them.

So far this close-season, we've swapped our left-back for another one, brought in a reserve right back, and spent £20m on a centre-forward. We've spent the whole summer courting a central midfielder despite being blessed with a huge array of talent there, brought in a new backup keeper, and completely ignored the wings.

Did we bring in someone who will get round the outside of their full-back and put crosses in?

No.

Did we bring in anyone who can move between the lines of midfield and attack, make creative runs, and generally break other teams down?

No.

Did we address the dead-ball situation?

No.

Therefore, ladies and gentleman, we still have the same problems as the last few years - problems that buying a £20m centre forward will not fix. As depressing as it is, we're not going to win the league, and we all know why.

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by **faldo** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:49 pm

it was not until we started whining and moaning last season,before they got their shoes together.

by **lakes10** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:54 pm

Effes wrote:A good post on RAWK:

"I'm just going to throw this out there.......

... and say we haven't addressed our problems over the close season. At all.

We haven't had a genuine winger since McManaman - I know it, you know it, in fact there's probably people in Siberia who know it.

Now then, playing narrow in the midfield is acceptable if you have two quality, attacking full-backs, who are quick enough and good enough to bomb up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, twice a week. We don't have that. We don't have a Clichy - Sagna/Eboue combination. In fact, we don't even have an Evra - Neville, where one will push forward at every given opportunity and provide overlapping quality, whilst the other can put in a very good cross from almost anywhere in the opponents half. What we have instead is Dossena, who is willing to push forward but doesn't appear to cross a ball that well, and Arbeloa. When Arbeloa signed, I was confused - we had Finnan on the right who was doing Neville's job - putting in good crosses on a regular basis. Arbeloa was shifted to left back, and on the back of keeping Messi in a straightjacket at the Camp Nou, excelled there for a while. He looked adventurous, quick, and generally like a ball-playing, attacking full-back.

I don't know what's happened since those first few months, but his confidence seems to be completely drained - the amount of times he has space in front of him, or is in a good crossing position, only for him to turn back inside and play the safe option is hugely frustrating. With Finnan apparently resigned to the bench or available for a transfer, that makes Arbeloa our first-choice right-back. If that had have been the case after his first few months here then I'd have no problem with it whatsoever, but at the moment he's playing well within himself and that doesn't help anybody.

Going back to the midfield, and the lack of width - it's been our biggest problem for as long as I can remember, and we've not even come close to solving it over the past 5 years. We don't have anybody willing to beat a man on the outside and put a cross in. None of Benayoun, Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, Gerrard or El Zhar are wingers, yet they're the guys filling our wide positions. Pennant is probably the closest we've got, but for whatever reasons he always seems to lack confidence - we know he can beat people and put a half-decent cross in, he just never does.

Today we started with two centre forwards out on the wings - and say what you like about Keane and Kuyt being 'versatile, clever, willing to play anywhere for the team', but they are both strikers. It's as simple as that. Neither of them are rapid, neither are fantastic at beating their man in a 1v1 situation, neither of them are great crossers of the ball. Yet today, they're expected to do the job of a winger. Confused yet? I certainly am. It's starting to feel like the good old days of having Heskey as a defensive centre-forward, playing out on the left hand side of a midfield of Murphy, Gerrard, Hamann, and McAllister - and it's frustrating to see. I don't want to get too deep into the Robbie Keane thing, firstly because it's a whole new can of worms, and secondly because I'm not quite sure why we actually signed him. But that's a completely different discussion.

Apparently the Riera deal is close to being finalised. I don't know much about the lad at all, so all I'm hoping for is that he is prepared to run down the outside of a full-back and put crosses in from the byline on a regular basis. We can but hope.

So moving on from the complete lack of width from both the defence and midfield, we are left with two problems that have been the cornerstone of the Benitez era - a complete lack of atacking fluidity and a dreadful approach to set-pieces.

Under Benitez, we've had two players capable of playing the old no10 role - Luis Garcia and Yossi Benayoun. Luis was fantastically frustrating, capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, and Yossi isn't far short. The thing is though, they're both victims of a system that just doesn't suit them. Last year we had untold success with Gerrard playing behind Torres - the first time we've really tried the one-up-top with a supporting attacker free to roam. That position is made for players like Benayoun and Luis Garcia, but instead, too often they're asked to try and be wingers. It doesn't work. Yossi can change a game from the centre of the field, if you give him the ball. He's a clever player with an eye for a pass, but his crossing is woeful. I cringe whenever I see him line up out wide - we may as well play with 10 men, as he just isn't a threat. The game just passes him by. He needs to be in that free role that Gerrard utilised so brilliantly last season, floating around and going wherever he likes. The problem with that is, now we've switched back to a 4-4-2, there is no free role.

With no free role, and a flat midfield four, comes defensive solidity. With defensive solidity rarely comes free-flowing attacking play. Our squad as a whole isn't quick enough to play a counter-attacking game, so we need to attack as a unit. When we play 4-4-2, the two central midfielders are defensive, even when Gerrard plays there. He spends more time in the centre circle than around the opposition box, which is no use to anyone as he's one of the best attacking midfielders in the world. So we have a four-man midfield, two of whom are playing as anchors, and the other two - who are now relied upon to provied creativity from the wings - who are either centre forwards, central midfielders, or full-backs being asked to play out wide. It's no wonder the team is so static. Today we started with two forwards out wide, who both naturally do their best work in and around the edge of the penalty area, and finished the game with a full-back and a central attacker out there. So, for the whole game today, we didn't have a single player at any given time who is naturally used to playing out wide - so more often than not, the team is static and moves break down.

I don't see why we've gone from the Gerrard-Torres through-the-middle combination that worked so well last year, back to a rigid 4-4-2, when we clearly don't have enough quality going forwards for it to work (or rather, I do see why we've changed, it's the Robbie Keane thing, but like I said that's a whole new discussion). The team is still too static, nobody moves to show for the ball, and there just aren't enough options and runners when Gerrard and Alonso pick up the ball in the middle of the park.

Is it starting to remind you of the Houllier era at all yet? Now don't get me wrong - I completely admire Rafa Benitez, and wouldn't want anybody else at all running the club, but I'd like to see more attacking gusto from him. Bringing on a full-back when we're after a goal isn't going to work. Playing said full-back on the wing certainly isn't. We've seen it over the past few years with Riise, I hope we don't start to see it as often with Aurelio too.

Talking of Fabio Aurelio, when he signed he was rumoured to have an immense left peg and a venomous free kick. What a crock of rubbish. Nobody at Liverpool Football Club has been able to strike a decent dead ball since the days of Berger and Redknapp. Hamann was a danger to whoever was in the wall, Riise was a danger to whoever was in row 32, and Gerrard's going to be in danger himself if he keeps taking free-kicks that haven't been teed up for him first. He's great at striking a moving ball, but striking direct free-kicks and corners? Give it up, you can't do it. Neither can Alonso, neither, apparently, can Aurelio. But that's OK, at least in terms of the corners - because we only have one player capable of attacking the ball in the air anyway. Step forward Mr Sami Hyypia. Take a bow. You can attack headers well. Messrs Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Gerrard, Plessis, and also previously Crouch... go and watch videos of Sami. See how he starts at the edge of the box, then runs towards the goal? See how he jumps? See how he heads the top of the ball so it doesn't go flying over the crossbar? Good. Now, you go and try it. Please. Pretty please.

I'm not sure if the set-piece thing is down to the players or the coaching staff - players should surely be tought where to stand for a corner, who runs where, and where the delivery should go. It really isn't hard. That's why it's so frustrating to see a group of three or four players, all 6' tall, standing under the ball when it's crossed in from a set piece, watching it get cleared by a defender who's attacked it. It really is schoolboy stuff, and something which should've been addressed many, many years ago, but for some reason has been ignored.

The last sentence above, is the important one. We all know what our problems have been recently - no movement, no width, no wingers, no attacking threat from set-pieces... and if we know what the problems are, then the coaching staff do, too. They know much more than us, yet for me, they aren't doing enough to try and solve them.

So far this close-season, we've swapped our left-back for another one, brought in a reserve right back, and spent £20m on a centre-forward. We've spent the whole summer courting a central midfielder despite being blessed with a huge array of talent there, brought in a new backup keeper, and completely ignored the wings.

Did we bring in someone who will get round the outside of their full-back and put crosses in?

No.

Did we bring in anyone who can move between the lines of midfield and attack, make creative runs, and generally break other teams down?

No.

Did we address the dead-ball situation?

No.

Therefore, ladies and gentleman, we still have the same problems as the last few years - problems that buying a £20m centre forward will not fix. As depressing as it is, we're not going to win the league, and we all know why.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=227660.0
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Discuss

spot on, a great post.

I wonder if he would have posted that if we had won today, i would like to think he would have.

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