Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:05 am

As for Alonso and Mascherano being a better pairing than Gerrard and Mascherano, all day long without a doubt in my mind.

Clueless.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:41 am

Bamaga man wrote:
As for Alonso and Mascherano being a better pairing than Gerrard and Mascherano, all day long without a doubt in my mind.

Clueless.

Not really, Alonso's far better in terms or passing, touch, control and discipline on the ball than Gerrard who can often be sloppy and rushed. Alonso also more often than not picks the right ball. You seem to think the sun shines out of Gerrard's backside and he's some wonderfull attacking midfeilder, he's not, he never has been, and he never will be. Hence the reason when he's the main creative player in any side, they look flat and void of ideas...

To add to that, Gerrard isn't tactically the sharpest tool in the box either.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:15 am

Fo Dne wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
As for Alonso and Mascherano being a better pairing than Gerrard and Mascherano, all day long without a doubt in my mind.

Clueless.

Not really, Alonso's far better in terms or passing, touch, control and discipline on the ball than Gerrard who can often be sloppy and rushed. Alonso also more often than not picks the right ball. You seem to think the sun shines out of Gerrard's backside and he's some wonderfull attacking midfeilder, he's not, he never has been, and he never will be. Hence the reason when he's the main creative player in any side, they look flat and void of ideas...

To add to that, Gerrard isn't tactically the sharpest tool in the box either.

Well for all of Alonsos traits, and Maschas come to think of it. Both are holding midfielders, Alonso sits deep while Mascha is the more mobile of the two who goes around breaking play up.

For all his wonderful passing and discipline Alonso doesnt nearly offer enough going forward. There is only so many "hollywood" balls a player can find in a game, after that it becomes menotonus (sp) and void of any ideas. Neither Mascha or Alonso can run and bring the ball out of defence, take a man on, play a one two then play a through ball or score a goal. Neither venture this far forward and because of this we look are rather negative outfit when the two are paired together through the middle.

Plus when Gerrard is in the middle, doing the box to box stuff he does best. He doesnt require this "discipline" that he apparently lacks because either Alonso or Mascha offer re-assurance for him in this position.

I'll say it again, Both Mascha and Alonso offer very little for us when going forward, its a negative pairing IMO where two holding midfielders are paired of in the center of a flat four midfield.

by **Effes** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:08 am

That was one of my gripes BM last season, playing 2 holding midfielders.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:27 am

Effes wrote:That was one of my gripes BM last season, playing 2 holding midfielders.

And mine mate.

I dont mind two holding midfielders in a five man midfield, but in a four man midfield its a little negative for me.

by **JC_81** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:03 am

Fo Dne wrote:Steven Gerrard's best position is on the right hand side of midfield or in central midfield with a player like Paul Scholes or Fabregas giving him defensive responsibility.

End of.

A couple of seasons ago when Gerrard was our top scorer from right midfield, you argued blind on this forum that his best position was central midfield 'end of'. Now its 'right midfield or central midfield'.

Make your mind up.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:23 am

john craig wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Steven Gerrard's best position is on the right hand side of midfield or in central midfield with a player like Paul Scholes or Fabregas giving him defensive responsibility.

End of.

A couple of seasons ago when Gerrard was our top scorer from right midfield, you argued blind on this forum that his best position was central midfield 'end of'. Now its 'right midfield or central midfield'.

Make your mind up.

Think you'll find I didn't...

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:12 pm

I think its not just about the two defensive midfield players (Masch and Alonso) not being creative or attacking enough in a 4man midfield , its about the players in front of them as well.

Stick Mcmanaman and Barnes out wide with Keane and Torres as the two strikers and I don't think ANYONE would be complaining about Masch and Alonso not offering enough.

Stick Kuyt up front and Babel and Voronin out wide and you might get a few complaints even if you put Maradonna and Zidane in midfield.

by **LegBarnes** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:20 pm

s@int wrote:I think its not just about the two defensive midfield players (Masch and Alonso) not being creative or attacking enough in a 4man midfield , its about the players in front of them as well.

Stick Mcmanaman and Barnes out wide with Keane and Torres as the two strikers and I don't think ANYONE would be complaining about Masch and Alonso not offering enough.

Stick Kuyt up front and Babel and Voronin out wide and you might get a few complaints even if you put Maradonna and Zidane in midfield.

still think 2 holding players are over kill rafa talks about ballance but ballance would be 1 holding 1 attacking.

by **LegBarnes** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:23 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
john craig wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Steven Gerrard's best position is on the right hand side of midfield or in central midfield with a player like Paul Scholes or Fabregas giving him defensive responsibility.

End of.

A couple of seasons ago when Gerrard was our top scorer from right midfield, you argued blind on this forum that his best position was central midfield 'end of'. Now its 'right midfield or central midfield'.

Make your mind up.

Think you'll find I didn't...

Gerrard is box to box midfielder he can do both niether is his better postion he is as good at both.

In liverpool team I find since we have no good wide players he does best out there for us.

I like to see alonso and masch in center but alonso given free role to get forward.

Gerrard on right to give is an edge he rarely has a bad game vrs any full backs.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:51 pm

League Games last season where Masch and Alonso played together

Derby 6-0
Arsenal 1-1
Wigan 1-1
Bolton 3-1
West Ham 4-0
Reading 2-1
Man U 0-3

So they only started 7 games together, I would say there is only the Wigan game that was a nightmare result. Losing to the Mancs with 10 men (Masch sent off) and a draw against Arsenal while not exactly what we were hoping for, were hardly surprising unfortunately.

I agree with LegBarnes, that its about balance, but its not just the 2 defensive midfielders thats the problem, its playing them with attacking players that couldn't score in a brothel (Kuyt, Voronin)

I prefer Gerrard in CENTRAL MIDFIELD, but it still depends on the players around him. Gerrard makes things happen in a way that Alonso and Masch could never dream of doing, but he still needs someone covering for him.

by **banana** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:19 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
As for Alonso and Mascherano being a better pairing than Gerrard and Mascherano, all day long without a doubt in my mind.

Clueless.

Not really, Alonso's far better in terms or passing, touch, control and discipline on the ball than Gerrard who can often be sloppy and rushed. Alonso also more often than not picks the right ball. You seem to think the sun shines out of Gerrard's backside and he's some wonderfull attacking midfeilder, he's not, he never has been, and he never will be. Hence the reason when he's the main creative player in any side, they look flat and void of ideas...

To add to that, Gerrard isn't tactically the sharpest tool in the box either.

That's true Stu. Both are good players.

Gerrard is more direct and physical.

Alonso is more creative, composed and he has better technical attributes.

I think Alonso is the better midfielder in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1- formation. Last year Gerrard was playing his best football on the right or just behind Torres in that attacking midfielder role.

by **bigmick** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:37 pm

It's a good thread this. I've always liked Gerrard on the right (or at least to give him credit I have since Rafa played him there). I'm not a fan of the Alonso/Masherano axis, although it could be much better than we've seen IMHO if Alonso was prepared/was encouraged to step up and play higher. I won't go into too much detail though as the last time I did someone got a bee in their bonnet about a cocktail barman thinking he knows more tha the manager. Last thing I want to do is upset anyone after all.

As for the aerial question, it's a fair one and someone is going to have to provide the answer. As I've said many times I actually believe Agger is capable of being sufficiently dominant aerially (not John Terry or Rio Ferdinand but Willaim Gallas maybe). Someone is going to need to step up to the plate though, because as sure as eggs is eggs we'll be asked a few questions there. I'm not convinced about Skrtel but if he can be encouraged to not ball watch overly often, he's certainly good enough in the air to play a part. I stil have a feeling that we'll see Carragher at right back for the majority of the season. If we do, I actually agree with the move.

by **JohnBull** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:04 pm

We still have the problem of our FBs being caught out of position because the forward players cannot hold a ball (Torres excepted). Dirk gets into wonderful positions and they cry out for the ball to him, same with Yossi. The problem is that they can't trap a sack of soot and are giving the ball away too easily. Our defence is then out of position with the CBs trying to cover the FBs who have pushed up leaving acres of space.
I can feel another 5 year plan coming on !

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