Liverpool FC Forum

Bamaga man wrote:

s@int wrote:For me flair has nothing to do with whether a player also works hard for the team, its all about the ability to do something special with the ball, something that most footballers can't. Stan Bowles,Rodney Marsh, maybe even George Best were all great examples of flair players who maybe didn't work has hard for the team as they could/should have. 

Dalglish like Keegan before him worked extremely hard for the team and was a consumate team player. Does this mean he can't be considered a flair player? NO! Dalglish had flair in abundance, he could time a pass to perfection, curl shots in that others could only dream about, beat a player with ease in the tightest of corners and was probably as good a player with his back to goal as you will ever see. Like Zidane he didn't have exceptional pace, but exceptional talent.

I prefer to talk about creative players rather than flair players for this very reason, people seem to think a flair player is one that stands around thinking about their golf handicap until someone manages to find them with a pass, when like magic they transform into some sort of a footballing genius with a tricky little flick before returning their thoughts to their new putter!

We need more creative players, players that can see a pass and execute it, players who can beat a man, players that can create goals (and maybe score a few). Game breakers, players that when things aren't going well in a match can change things, can create a chance out of nothing or score when there doesn't even appear to be a chance until they create it.

People keep going on about Aimar and how Rafa obviously loves flair because he had Aimar at Valencia. Rafa didn't buy Aimar, and most of the time didn't trust him enough to play him. When Valencia won the league Aimar was sat on the bench! The most vital game of their season and of Rafa's life (up to then) and he decided to "rest" his best player. Rafa said earlier that season that "Aimar was a better player than Ronaldiniho", yet Aimar spent a large part of that season on the subs bench.

One of the more logical posts on here, re-joice !

Bamaga man wrote:WOULD RAFA SIGN JOHN BARNES ?

I dont think he would TBH, just because Barnsey wasnt as good at tracking back and helping the team defend as much as Rafa would like.

It's all hypothetical anyway, but I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that Rafa wouldn't have signed John Barnes, considering Rafa signed Ryan Babel .

Bamaga man wrote:

woof woof ! wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:WOULD RAFA SIGN JOHN BARNES ?

I dont think he would TBH, just because Barnsey wasnt as good at tracking back and helping the team defend as much as Rafa would like.

It's all hypothetical anyway, but I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that Rafa wouldn't have signed John Barnes, considering Rafa signed Ryan Babel .

Yes it is hyperthetical.

But has Rafa brought in Babel as a striker, surely he has. If not hes wasted 11 million on a round peg for a square hole.

Squre peg or not, he consistently plays him wide left and as Babel fits your desciption of Barnsey's defensive capabilities I wondered how you came to the conclusion that Rafa would never have signed john Barnes .

Bamaga man wrote:

s@int wrote:For me flair has nothing to do with whether a player also works hard for the team, its all about the ability to do something special with the ball, something that most footballers can't. Stan Bowles,Rodney Marsh, maybe even George Best were all great examples of flair players who maybe didn't work has hard for the team as they could/should have. 

Dalglish like Keegan before him worked extremely hard for the team and was a consumate team player. Does this mean he can't be considered a flair player? NO! Dalglish had flair in abundance, he could time a pass to perfection, curl shots in that others could only dream about, beat a player with ease in the tightest of corners and was probably as good a player with his back to goal as you will ever see. Like Zidane he didn't have exceptional pace, but exceptional talent.

I prefer to talk about creative players rather than flair players for this very reason, people seem to think a flair player is one that stands around thinking about their golf handicap until someone manages to find them with a pass, when like magic they transform into some sort of a footballing genius with a tricky little flick before returning their thoughts to their new putter!

We need more creative players, players that can see a pass and execute it, players who can beat a man, players that can create goals (and maybe score a few). Game breakers, players that when things aren't going well in a match can change things, can create a chance out of nothing or score when there doesn't even appear to be a chance until they create it.

People keep going on about Aimar and how Rafa obviously loves flair because he had Aimar at Valencia. Rafa didn't buy Aimar, and most of the time didn't trust him enough to play him. When Valencia won the league Aimar was sat on the bench! The most vital game of their season and of Rafa's life (up to then) and he decided to "rest" his best player. Rafa said earlier that season that "Aimar was a better player than Ronaldiniho", yet Aimar spent a large part of that season on the subs bench.

One of the more logical posts on here, re-joice !

Many people in this thread just assume that because a player has flair/guile that he cant work hard and track back and do his defensive duties. People have become so bogged down into thinking a player is either a) flairy or b) defensive on here but cannot be both, granted its a lot harder to find one that is very good at both.

But because I've raised the question on here about Rafa not really keen on signing a "flairy" type player. I've been shut down by certain people and have be given the response's of,.... Rafa likes 11 men to work back as a unit and defend as a team blh blh blh. By the same token does this mean we cannot sign any creative type forwards because certain people just assume creative people cannot help out in defence, because if it does mean that then we're f.ucked right up the poo shooter for the forseable future then ?

An individual player can have the balance himself between creating chances and tracking back, he can be a big influence on a match in the final third, aswell as getting back and tackling, helping out his defence as much as he does going forward. The best example of this is none other than Steven Gerrard (albeit not a wide man but still).

On the flip side to that if an individual has a more defensive or vis-vers attacking minded mentality and focus's his attention on what he's best at i.e Mascha and Alonso defending and screening.
Then ou need to find the balance amongst the team, more so than the individual players. I think you'll be hard pressed to find 11 players equally balanced individually in one team who each can get forward and attack, but at the same token do equally well in defence.

No you have your Carras, Skertels, Hyypias, Aggers, Arbeloas, Dossenas, Maschas and Alonso's to primarily defend.

Then you have your Torres', Gerrards, Babels to attack.

Then you we have our inbetweeners, Pennant, Yossi, Kuyt , Voronin and so on who arent good enough to help out in an attacking sense, they're kack TBPH, even Babel of yet is something of an enigma. So really we can catergorically state that we have ONLY two players in Torres and Gerrard who will create and score goals for themselves and cause defenders nightmares during a game. While we have Pennant, Yossi and Kuyt trying to back them up. The latte mob mentioned are brought, picked and selected though IMO because Rafa can get them working and grafting the lines first and foremost. Then if they can get wide, cut in, create or jink there way through the box and dribble the ball with extreme skill or the more better ... BUT THEY DONT.

Rafa doesnt have the balance in the team, he has a solid wall of defensive, hardworing gritty f.ucking players who sweat blood for the team, and dont get me wrong we need them as much as the next man. But he doesnt have the the flair and creativity to balance it up at the other end.

If what any of you say is correct, regarding Rafa finding the balance in defensiveness and forward moving flair for his wingers. I'll guarantee you now if he is going to be that fussy and pedantic with such a player and position we'll be without a decent attacking minded winger until his reign as manager ends. And of course in that time we'll just fill the wide positions up of bargain basement buys like your Pennants and Benayouns because aswell as being cheap they show a better attitude in getting back and grafting, than say as someone like John Barnes did.

Now I can really only remember John Barnes terrifying oppos defences and scoring and creating goals for the team. I dont actually remember him being a Kuyt-like player in his tracking back and helping out his fullback up until the point hes cramping his colleagues style and more or less standing on the fullback toes for 80 mins. Maybe he did but that doesnt stand out for me about him ...

BUT WOULD RAFA SIGN JOHN BARNES ?

I dont think he would TBH, just because Barnsey wasnt as good at tracking back and helping the team defend as much as Rafa would like. IMO Rafa would see this as 'not good work ethic', and I dont think he'd gamble (if it is a gamble) on a player like John Barnes in the transfer market.
We havent won the league since we've had a team finely balanced, with 11 good settled players or so who could defend as a team and attack as one to.

We now have a spine of quality that can match anything today in this current Liverpool side we dont have the wide men. But if Rafa, as it appeared to ME in this interview with Quaresma and in signings gone by, is going to continually look, mould and pick "workers" over ultimately "flair" players, then I dont think we'll be able to match ManU, Chelsea or Arsenal blow for blow in the Prem. Incidentaly when was the last time we scored a goal at OT, we dont have enough guile and creativity in the team to break a quaity defence down, and struggle, huff and puff and look predictable when trying to break down a bus parked at Anfield full of Birmingham players.

Bamaga man wrote:

woof woof ! wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

woof woof ! wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:WOULD RAFA SIGN JOHN BARNES ?

I dont think he would TBH, just because Barnsey wasnt as good at tracking back and helping the team defend as much as Rafa would like.

It's all hypothetical anyway, but I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that Rafa wouldn't have signed John Barnes, considering Rafa signed Ryan Babel .

Yes it is hyperthetical.

But has Rafa brought in Babel as a striker, surely he has. If not hes wasted 11 million on a round peg for a square hole.

Squre peg or not, he consistently plays him wide left and as Babel fits your desciption of Barnsey's defensive capabilities I wondered how you came to the conclusion that Rafa would never have signed john Barnes .

I wonder too.

Look at the amount of defensive minded players Rafa signs, Lucas, Mascha, Alonso, Skertel, Agger, Plessis who hes started to introduce to the first team.
He has brought in quality where the their concerned, yet the only quality improvement in a forward sense has been Torres and thats upfront.

Yes he has bought Babel, who is more like Cisse with pace to burn than like Garcia who is a "trickster". It doesnt matter anyhow, hes playing a striker in a LW's role, paid 11 million  for him and hasnt benefitted.

Okay the fact he has brought in Babel may prove me wrong on the Barnsey front, but I think its a bad buy anyhow if hes going to continue playing the lad in the wrong osition and that still doesnt hide the fact the Rafa buys defensive minded payers in abundance, and a Ryan Babel type player for every 4 defensive players bought.

There is no balance IMO simple as.