Liverpool FC Forum

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:20 am

if other top 3 out spend us by 100% agian and we finish 4th will it be a good season that is the question ?

by **RedBlood** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:27 am

jesus why dont Bad Bob & Bigmick get a room

by **stmichael** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:22 am

bigmick wrote:It was though the results at pompey away, followed by Birminham at home which put our title aspirations to bed. It wasn't that they were desperately bad results, (though the Brum one in particular was a bit of a let down) it was the manner, the message we sent out in the way we approached the game.

you see i don't get this. to me, the reading game was more significant in that we picked a ludicrous team with crouch wide left in a front three which was never going to work. we then had the issue of rafa taking players off at 3-1 down because he was potentially one game away from the sack.

when we played united at home we were 5 points behind them with a game in hand. the title was lost in and around the new year when we had a dreadful run and when the champions league was coincidentally put on the back burner. man city (0-0), wigan (1-1), boro (1-1), villa (2-2) and west ham (0-1) were shocking results and by the time the champions league started up again we were sixteen points adrift. we also ambled past luton and havant and waterlooville during that spell aswell.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:04 pm

By the time Man Utd at Home came around though Mike, we had already been through the easiest start to the Premiership I can remember. We had seen Chelsea practically implode before our eyes and Man Utd have their worst start for seventeen years or whatever the feck it was, and we were still five points off the top. As the fixtures dropped out, we were always going to have to go to the other three big four teams in the second half of the season and some of us were of the opinion that we really needed a lead at the half way stage. By contrast, Chelsea had the same three games as Home fixtures in the second half of the season which obviously makes a huge difference. I remember looking at Chelsea on Betfair before Christmas and they were a shade over 11/1 which looked like a huge price to me given this. I didn't necessarily think they would win it, but I was fairly sure they would get a lot closer than they were at that point and in so doing present good hedging possibilities. As it happened I missed the boat and had to endure the agony of watching their price tumble along with the deficit between them and the leaders. As they non-rotated themselves to the top (to draw level with Man Utd who apparently non-rotated as well) I was left to ponder on the fac that only our first point at the bridge under Rafa denied them the title.

Anyway, suffice to say I spend a fair bit of time looking at such things. Nobody can difinitively say "that was the moment when" as it's an opinion, but I did come out quite early and call our title challenge dead in the water to be fair. If people think I was too early on it, too pessimistic or whatever thats fair enough but we agree to differ. I remember at one point last erm getting in a heated debate (for me anyway) with some posters who maintained we were well and truly still in it. I pointed out to them that around 28/1 was freely available should they wish to back up their theory, but as the price continued to slide I can only assume they weren't betting types.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:09 pm

RedBlood wrote:jesus why dont Bad Bob & Bigmick get a room

Nt enuff txt spk 4 u lad?

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:16 pm

bigmick wrote:Bad Bobs is an excellent post and his digging into some of my claims and beliefs has highlighted one or two of them as being utter b0ll0cks. Fair enough (about time someone did it).

To take them as they come and at least put up a wee bit of a fight.

"Obsessed with rotation"? Guilty as charged I'm afraid as I think it's been the single most significant factor in our (IMHO) finishing positions relative to the eventual Champions under Rafa's tenure. I'm just so keen for him to give the team a chance I've become a bit obsessed, (well probably quite a lot) sorry

As for the Fergie styling bit, I did get the impression that there was a bit more of the shuffling/resting/rotating/styling going on towards the end of the season. I was at the time being assured by all and sundry that "forget about Rafa rotating mate, what about Fergie? he rotates the team all the time and nobody mentions it when he does it". If that stance has subsequently been proven to be tosh by your research Bob, and there are infact no weapons of mass destruction in Fergies selection record, then best I leave that one there (he says as he steps over a pile of rubble that used to be a factory). I do recall him playing a silly team at Bolton and losing earlier in the season which kind of got me onto it, it was almost as if he had bought into the delayed gazelle as Ronaldo watched his team lose 1-0 whilst saving himself for a game six months later. Anyhow like I say, if it's official that Fergie doesn't style it like Rafa then I'm happy to stand corrected, (obviously leaving out the Chelsea selection).

As for the "conceding points" bit, to understand that you really need to share my views (obsession if you like) about "Rafa style". It's not about the players being mentally strong enough, it's more about them getting a "here we go again" feeling about the way it's panning out. I don't profess to know what the likes of Gerrard and Carragher think of the styling, but I have detected subtle hints that they think it's overdone on occasions. Once we'd gone to Pompey and played the team which we did, and gone back home to Brum and played the team that we did, it was fairly obvious the way we were going to play it, and by definition (if you share my opinion on rotation) we were doomed from then on. I mentioned the Sheffield United away game the previous season for the same reason, once we had approached that game in the way that we did with the team which we did, it was pretty much all over rover. Funnily enough when we subsequently lost four more away matches on the bounce, people said that it was ridiculous that we had to play all our hardest matches at the start of the season which was true. What was equally true though, was that we knew the fixture list well in advance and styling it up in our first match was ridiculous. Some of us even said so at the time but needless to say just copped a tonne of flak.

Seriously though mate, a good post and I've been well and truly put in my place. Just before you close the lid on the box though, I will say this (although it will sound a bit muffled as the lid goes down ) if we style it up in the very first game of the season coming up and don't get a result at Sunderland away, character or not Carragher and Gerrard will be thinking "here we go again" and we'll be already on our way out of it.

Just a quick response this time, Mick.

On Fergie--yes, there were a couple of games earlier in the season where he rested Ronaldo and they dropped points. There just wasn't a discernible pattern of Rafa-style rotation down the stretch, was my point. Besides, they have a better squad than us, sadly, so bringing in, say, Anderson, Nani and Park to give some of the regulars a rest--as Ferguson did at time down the stretch--wasn't going to undermine the team too much.

As for the Pompey and Brum matches, I agree with you that those were disappointing results and moments when the doubt began to creep in again (Brum esp.). I guess I'm just not as comfortable with calling something so definitive, so early. As long as there's lots of football left to play, I figure anything can happen. That season a few years back when Arsenal were walking the title and then imploded during the run-in to hand it to the Mancs taught me that anything can happen in this game.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:12 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Owzat wrote:I'll be worried about the teams below us when they're spending £30m+ on players and that hasn't happened - yet. villa fans blow a lot of hot air saying they don't need our money, well I'd be worried by their signings and lack of. They won't pay decent money for Carson, they are so small time. spudz may lose as good a player as they've signed and if the height of Newcastle ambition extends to Guthrie then I laugh at their 'challenge'. Apart from Modric, who has signed for a smaller club that seems more like a signing associated with a big club?

So basically we're still comfortably ahead of the sides below us last season, in terms of squad strength. We should really have finished above Arsenal so the main concern is catching up the mancs and Chelski. The mancs haven't signed anyone yet, the only worry is we're hardly signing the players that would worry them. Chelski are an unknown quantity with the change of manager, as with Mourinho taking over from Ranieri you shouldn't expect the same.

But as I've said before, we should be concentrating on winning the points against sides we should be beating. 32 games a season are against said sides, then the only concern is getting the 27+ wins we need to win the title and last season we managed no win over the top three in the league so it may have to be winning 27/32 which is some ask. Until the smaller clubs start signing two or three Modric's I won't be worried about them.

I don't worrie about others teams they gonna do what they gonna do , Rafa cant control that he just gotta get his game plan right this season what ever it is simple as that.

We need to when more head to heads be nice but if we win all the other games apart from head to heads we can win title i think dropping points of bottom and mid table teams should be biggest no no this season.

The teams below haven't done enough yet in the transfer market, unless their managers suddenly get Wenger-like then they shouldn't pose us any threat. How many seasons in a row have the wannabes said they'll finish above us and not? Only the bitters have broken the big four dominance in the past four seasons, even then it took the beginning of our latest love affair with the CL for them to sneak it.

We need to worry about them a little bit, they are the sides we need to be beating week in, week out and we don't want the sneaky beggars stealing points off us this season. The sides above are only an issue when we're playing them, it's about time Rafa became their master and took a good 10+ points off them this season. Then we can pick up the other 75 odd points from the other 32 games against the sides that are easier to beat - simple! :eyebrow

by **Sean** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:52 pm

United are the team to beat again this year. Fergie has an excellent team and every season he can break the bank to bring in an exceptional player to add to the sides quality and keep the other guys on their toes. This year that player is likely to be Berbatov.

I actually hope Ronaldo stays. Every day there is going to be speculation in the media regarding a potential transfer to Madrid in January. He is already ruled out until October and his brooding presence at the club will hopefully create resentment and disharmony in the dressing room.

As for us, I just hope there is no boardroom upheavel behind the scenes. I think Rafa has done a good job given the financial muscle of Chelsea and United that he has had to compete against. I just hope he plays our best possible eleven from the first game so that we can win as many games as possible and build up confidence.

by **stmichael** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:37 pm

Sean wrote:United are the team to beat again this year. Fergie has an excellent team and every season he can break the bank to bring in an exceptional player to add to the sides quality and keep the other guys on their toes. This year that player is likely to be Berbatov.

I agree with you that they are favourites.

The main difference is that the Mancs dont seem to require such a back up plan to break through people's packed defences as we do but you cannot compare their contingent of possible talent to get past people with ours. 1-2 injuries and we are completely derailed still so I'd like to think there was a plan B, either a very talented player able to beat others or a very physical player that would allow the ball to stick up front and others to play off them.

I think this is a testament to the squad's maturity that we now feel we can eliminate the need for an outlet that would enable us to hoof it long, this I feel is more of a testament to the defenders we now have.

by **Sean** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:51 pm

Arguably next season we will have the leagues best goal keeper (Reina), defender (Agger), midfielder (Gerrard) and striker (Torres). Hopefully, Rafa can strengthen in the other positions before the season kicks off.

by **Toffeehater** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 pm

Number 9 wrote:I agree with John about Arsenal.I would be very concerned if i was an Arsenal fan with the quality of players that are showing a desire to leave.To me it is players that want to win things and they obviously dont believe they can fill their ambitions at Arsenal.It seems that how they lost it at the end of last season has had a negative effect on them and they realise they can do bigger things elswhere and also earn more money.

As for Chelsea,again good players wanting to leave is always a bad sign.I have always felt that sooner or later the hiring and firing of managers will have a negative effect on the squad of players.Lots of people have said that Scolari will come in and take them places.Well the reality is he has one season to do it and he probably needs to win the C/L or EPL to keep his job.
Yes he has an open chequebook and can sign any player willing to join his ranks,thats all well and good but he has to get things right from day one in the league.This will not be easy to do.He is under emmense pressure and i dont think he realises yet exactly how much pressure.Lets see if his interveiws are so easygoing and joyful a few months into the season....i'd very much doubt it!

As for UTD,its hard to say what will happen with Ronaldo,i think personally he will stay another season at least,time will tell on that one!
Either way I reckon Fergie will probably buy 2 very good players to slot into the first team as usual...quality not quantity!

It should be an interesting season and it will be fascinating to see how all four line up come the 16th of August.
On LFC we have been linked to so many players there is'nt a man alive who could predict who will have come and gone by the time the transfer window closes!
With the right signings I feel we can be well armed to have a great campaign.With the right management and a bit of common sense we should be up there at the end of the season and in with a shout.
I think its crucial we play a settled back four in the League,im not saying the same EVERY game from august season end,but players should only be rested when genuinely tired.I just feel that we lacked understanding at the back and suffered for it last year.Im not saying that was the only reason we never challenged but it was the most obvious and the easiest to fix.
If we have luck with no injuries to key players and Rafa resists rotating too much we can be serious contenders.
I know a lot wont agree but rather than rotate and rest players in League games i would be tempted to let the fringe players and even reserves play in the Carling Cup and maybe even the FA cup.
Lets face it if we benefit from doing so in the league it would be well worth it.
Concentrate on the big 2 the C/L and the holy grail that we have waited way too long for...The League

good post mate , fully agree with what you have posted :nod

by **Toffeehater** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:04 pm

Sean wrote:Arguably next season we will have the leagues best goal keeper (Reina), defender (Agger), midfielder (Gerrard) and striker (Torres). Hopefully, Rafa can strengthen in the other positions before the season kicks off.

Don't get me wrong i think reina is one of the top keepers in the world but i think cech is the best one in the league and world right now , he has saved chelsea on many occasions , remember the champions semi final the 2nd leg? , over the course of the season as well , sure he has made the ocassional mistakes here and there but to be fair every keper has that .

As for Torres and gerrard , no arguments there . Having agger back would be a huge boost and would have definitely strengthen our defence , and possibly reduce the goals we have conceded from set plays

by **John Kegs** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:39 pm

The signings by the likes of man city, tottenham etc. are worrying me the most, wtf is the world coming to when MAN CITY are going out and spending like 25mil on players like ronaldinho, if this keeps going on we're certainly not going to be able to keep up financially and i hope that we dont end up suffering

Although i think arsenal will be in trouble before us

Rich b.astards coming in and ruining the game

Worst has obviously been chelsea for a while, cant believe we're hearing stuff like 80mil bids for torres, 60mil bids for kaka, its insane

by **Number 9** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:40 pm

On the subject of UTD rotating players talked about in Bob and Micks essays!:DI think the point needs to be made that although at times of the season Fergie has rested or rotated players,itdoes not have the same effect as when Rafa does it for two reasons.
Firstly he has never done it as frequently as Rafa.Yes he has at times been caught out and lost points resting players against weaker opposition but that happens.And then there are times like end of season when they are playing maybe Saturday,Wednesday and Saturday again.There is no manager alive that would field his best 11 in 3 games so close especially when all are so important,with lots to loose.

Secondly,sadly UTDs squad is superior to ours.When Rafa rests players he is usually bringing in players that are of a lot less quality.
UTD can rest players and bring in better players than we have the luxury of using as back up,it does'nt weaken their team as much as ours.
So its not really fair to compare the two in that sense either.

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