Liverpool FC Forum

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:14 am

He hasnt had much to work with and yet top teams keep out spending him between 100-200%.

They can go out and buy 3 20+ mil players if they need it rafa cant and tho you guys say just sell X Y and Z player it isnt always that easy to get funds up as you can see in market atm.

But you also mentioned us winning the champs league. When it comes to european competition rafa has it spot on but when the league argument is raised, he doesnt have the funding to compete? Then by rights we should be appalling in all competetions as we cannot compete with the best yes? No, theres a limit, you can blame funding, you blame our owners but you have to look at the facts, did LFC win the champions league against milan because we were lucky? or did we win because we had the players and the manager to get it right in the second half of that match? We sign the best we can get, ,more importantly, we sign the best rafa can get. Just because we have never heard of the player doesnt mean they are rubbish, how many player has rafa signed that are not well known, and have become cult hero's for us, Reina, Skrtal, Alonso, Garcia who can honestly say we knew these players before they came here? I didnt for one, I didnt have a clue who they were. Let the top teams outspend us, it doesnt mean they are signing quality, they are simply doing there job half @ssed because the money is there, paying for reputation.

by **Effes** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:28 am

Kharhaz wrote:you blame our owners but you have to look at the facts, did LFC win the champions league against milan because we were lucky? or did we win because we had the players and the manager to get it right in the second half of that match?

To be honest, it was Rafa's fault we were 3-0 down at half time.
Not starting Hamman was criminal.

Also, the changes at half time were forced on him, Finnan was injured so we had to go 3 at the back, Hamman on in the middle.
Plus, SG getting that all important 1st goal.

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:36 am

Effes wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:you blame our owners but you have to look at the facts, did LFC win the champions league against milan because we were lucky? or did we win because we had the players and the manager to get it right in the second half of that match?

To be honest, it was Rafa's fault we were 3-0 down at half time.
Not starting Hamman was criminal.

Also, the changes at half time were forced on him, Finnan was injured so we had to go 3 at the back, Hamman on in the middle.
Plus, SG getting that all important 1st goal.

Oh right, so we was lucky, fate was on our side. Hamman not starting was the key. I like you effes but seriously, that is a load of tripe and you know it. The formation we changed to when hamann was brought on was not as well known as the one we started with. It was our first euro final in years and the players bottled it. It was only when half time came around and we was 3 - 0 down that the players realised what they had to do. Rafa spoke to them, changed the formation and players and got the result.

Who would of thought, before that match, that we would win the champs league with Smicer in the team?

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:56 am

LegBarnes wrote:
peewee wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:but he has results to back up what he does

barnsley, burnley, besiktas away, not to mention too many disappointments in the league (too many to be bothered mentioning), our lack of victories against the top three teams in the league, too many points behind the winners each season etc etc etc. see mate we can all come up with arguments, he also has the results to show it doesn't work

dude thats you sumed up a he won the CL so you

truth hurts mate, yes he won the CL, or rather the players won it, rafas tactics and selection put us 3 down at half time and it was only the injury to finnan that made him bring hamman on, so you want proof, lets look at the second CL final, again he got it very wrong with his selection and subs, now lets look at the FA cup final, it took and injury time equalizer for us to go on and win it. Can you see the trend here? 4 finals, two lost, two won because of an injury and the players belief and the second because gerrard had cramp.

two trophies in 4 years and nowhere near winning the league, and i know you will spout some sh*te about money etc, so lets just admit we have less money, so what does genius rafa do, he weakens his teams even more with ridiculous selections, do you fully understand this, he actually chooses to weaken our team in certain games

ok i am simplifying things for the hard of thinking, but get your head out of rafas @rse mate and take a look around, its taken the guy 4 years to realise his over rotation doesnt work, well i am saying 4 years, we havent seen what he will do next season yet but i expect more stubbornness leading to us all twiddling our thumbs again in the league after xmas followed by some more ridiculous excuses on here

by **SupitsJonF** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:01 am

Didn't Barnsley beat Chelsea too?

by **Effes** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:03 am

Kharhaz wrote:
Effes wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:you blame our owners but you have to look at the facts, did LFC win the champions league against milan because we were lucky? or did we win because we had the players and the manager to get it right in the second half of that match?

To be honest, it was Rafa's fault we were 3-0 down at half time.
Not starting Hamman was criminal.

Also, the changes at half time were forced on him, Finnan was injured so we had to go 3 at the back, Hamman on in the middle.
Plus, SG getting that all important 1st goal.

Oh right, so we was lucky, fate was on our side. Hamman not starting was the key. I like you effes but seriously, that is a load of tripe and you know it. The formation we changed to when hamann was brought on was not as well known as the one we started with. It was our first euro final in years and the players bottled it. It was only when half time came around and we was 3 - 0 down that the players realised what they had to do. Rafa spoke to them, changed the formation and players and got the result.

Who would of thought, before that match, that we would win the champs league with Smicer in the team?

You see it one way, I see it the other.
But.... Hamman was the key :nod

I will say though, Rafa takes all the credit for getting us to the Final.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:03 am

SupitsJonF wrote:Didn't Barnsley beat Chelsea too?

oh that makes it ok then......................

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:08 am

rafas tactics and selection put us 3 down at half time and it was only the injury to finnan that made him bring hamman on, so you want proof, lets look at the second CL final, again he got it very wrong with his selection and subs

Aside from Kewell which we can all look back on in hindsight, he picked a side which was strong. The mistake he made in that final was not going with a 3-5-2 formation, a formation that was tested during that season and didnt deliver, Finnan got injured yes, could he have brought on a defender and stuck with what he set out or did he decide to change everything? I can accept the mistakes rafa makes as much as I can accept the things he gets right. I will not accept that everything we have won under rafa is down to luck, we are good in cup competitions but poor in the league. That isnt luck, that is mentality. There are games when rafa has picked his strongest side and the players havent performed. Is this rafas fault also? or is it a battle of egos?

by **Effes** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:16 am

Kharhaz wrote:The mistake he made in that final was not going with a 3-5-2 formation, a formation that was tested during that season and didnt deliver, Finnan got injured yes, could he have brought on a defender and stuck with what he set out or did he decide to change everything?

You say this in your previous post (02.36am)

"The formation we changed to when hamann was brought on was not as well known as the one we started with."

A semi-contradiction there to what you say in the quote.

Also, the only defender he could have brought on was Josemi.
So he had the choice, Josemi or Hamman - I know which one I would prefer.

Anyhow, there's no point debating the 2005 Final.

It's about where Rafa is taking us.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:17 am

Kharhaz wrote:
rafas tactics and selection put us 3 down at half time and it was only the injury to finnan that made him bring hamman on, so you want proof, lets look at the second CL final, again he got it very wrong with his selection and subs

Aside from Kewell which we can all look back on in hindsight, he picked a side which was strong. The mistake he made in that final was not going with a 3-5-2 formation, a formation that was tested during that season and didnt deliver, Finnan got injured yes, could he have brought on a defender and stuck with what he set out or did he decide to change everything? I can accept the mistakes rafa makes as much as I can accept the things he gets right. I will not accept that everything we have won under rafa is down to luck, we are good in cup competitions but poor in the league. That isnt luck, that is mentality. There are games when rafa has picked his strongest side and the players havent performed. Is this rafas fault also? or is it a battle of egos?

well luck has played a part in those two finals mate but its not all luck. but at the end of the day rafa will be judged on results and for me he has not bee setting the world alight, if he hadn't been so stupid with selections and signings over the last 4 years he would have more support from me, but when i see him putting out a weakened team so we are left struggling in games we should be strolling through then as a fan I have every right to question his ability, CL win or no CL win.

he has this season to get it right in my opinion, i always like to look at we what do and not what other teams do mate, but what worries me is that at the end of next season the mancs might be level with us on leagues won, now that a scary thought, and rafa has to get it right this year, no more f*cking about

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:25 am

peewee wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
rafas tactics and selection put us 3 down at half time and it was only the injury to finnan that made him bring hamman on, so you want proof, lets look at the second CL final, again he got it very wrong with his selection and subs

Aside from Kewell which we can all look back on in hindsight, he picked a side which was strong. The mistake he made in that final was not going with a 3-5-2 formation, a formation that was tested during that season and didnt deliver, Finnan got injured yes, could he have brought on a defender and stuck with what he set out or did he decide to change everything? I can accept the mistakes rafa makes as much as I can accept the things he gets right. I will not accept that everything we have won under rafa is down to luck, we are good in cup competitions but poor in the league. That isnt luck, that is mentality. There are games when rafa has picked his strongest side and the players havent performed. Is this rafas fault also? or is it a battle of egos?

well luck has played a part in those two finals mate but its not all luck. but at the end of the day rafa will be judged on results and for me he has not bee setting the world alight, if he hadn't been so stupid with selections and signings over the last 4 years he would have more support from me, but when i see him putting out a weakened team so we are left struggling in games we should be strolling through then as a fan I have every right to question his ability, CL win or no CL win.

he has this season to get it right in my opinion, i always like to look at we what do and not what other teams do mate, but what worries me is that at the end of next season the mancs might be level with us on leagues won, now that a scary thought, and rafa has to get it right this year, no more f*cking about

Yeah, he has to cut out the mass rotation. That is where he is failing in the league. United are catching up or indeed close to overtaking us, but even that is not down to benitez, or indeed hicks and gillette, its down to the players also. Rafa has to play sensible from this season onwards, if not, then the time has come for him to leave.

by **Rush Job** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 am

Kharhaz wrote:
rafas tactics and selection put us 3 down at half time and it was only the injury to finnan that made him bring hamman on, so you want proof, lets look at the second CL final, again he got it very wrong with his selection and subs

Aside from Kewell which we can all look back on in hindsight, he picked a side which was strong. The mistake he made in that final was not going with a 3-5-2 formation, a formation that was tested during that season and didnt deliver, Finnan got injured yes, could he have brought on a defender and stuck with what he set out or did he decide to change everything? I can accept the mistakes rafa makes as much as I can accept the things he gets right. I will not accept that everything we have won under rafa is down to luck, we are good in cup competitions but poor in the league. That isnt luck, that is mentality. There are games when rafa has picked his strongest side and the players havent performed. Is this rafas fault also? or is it a battle of egos?

You have hit the nail on the head there mate, why do our players look so much more comfortable in CL footy? i also think it is largly down to the mentality asperation of the player, plus they are generally much more tactical affairs so we get the benefit of a great tactition but even that is used agaist the boss with lines like" yer but he cant do it in the league " well, his finishing possiton this past few seasons are very similar to Wenger's so we've hardly been shocking either.

by **Rush Job** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:11 am

That said its a make or break season for Rafa, he must go very close in the league to get a new deal IMO and he knows it.

by **SupitsJonF** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:36 am

peewee wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:Didn't Barnsley beat Chelsea too?

oh that makes it ok then......................

No but it means they obviously weren't as easy as a side as you make it seem to be in your first point.

Or aka a flaw.

But that was only with Barsnley, other teams no excuses really.

by **bigmick** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:07 am

SupitsJonF wrote:
peewee wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:Didn't Barnsley beat Chelsea too?

oh that makes it ok then......................

No but it means they obviously weren't as easy as a side as you make it seem to be in your first point.

Or aka a flaw.

But that was only with Barsnley, other teams no excuses really.

Had they have won the Championship by ten points, then it would be possible to make the case that they were actually a much better team than many gave them credit for. The reality of course is that they didn't, and to lose to them at Home in the fifth round, with other big teams already out was a desperately poor effort. The fact that Chelsea didn't heed the warning and see them off either with the competition positively asking to be won is more an endictment on them, than it is proof positive that Barnsley were World beaters.

It's probably worth remembering that we could quite easily have lost against Luton in the competition previously, needing a Crouch equaliser and a replay to see them off. Even the bunch of galactico's otherwise known as Havant and Waterlooville had managed to twice take the lead against us at Anfield in the previous round.

I think it's fair to say that all things considered, the Barnsley result was in all probability an accident waiting to happen.

Liverpool FC Forum

Bored with benitez. - What ever happened to the mighty reds?

Who is online