Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:01 am

If we sign Villa, as far as I'm concerned it would signal our intentions to change to a 4-4-2, as he wouldn't be anything like as effective in a 4-3-3, which doubles as a 4-5-1 when we're not in possession.

I'd love to see it happen as Villa fits the profile of player we need for that position - excellent in tight spaces, great vision and positional sense, poses a real goal threat and can interchange with Torres.

I don't see it happening though as we probably wouldn't be able to afford him.

I don't think it affects our situation on the wings much. We need at least one quality winger irrespective of whether we opt for a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1/4-3-3.

by **Effes** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:44 am

The title of this thread made me think of Fonejacker!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEk6Hkdtquw

by **JoeTerp** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:19 am

Sabre wrote:The thing I like most of JoeTerp's post is how he address the signing ups, always understanding the signing up as someone who's gonna be part of a context, making the pertinent questions about how he'll mix together into the team. Just the opposite to that other Real Madrid-esque or Football Manager computer game player-esque view of "the more expensive and rated players I buy the better". So despite I disagree some of his points, I congratulate him because of how he asks the question.

I won't put a starting a formation like this:

X-----X-----X-----X
---------X

or even like this

X----------------X
-----X-----X
--------X

We could do wedges, and other nice shapes but that is not important once the game starts and the players are moving.

a 4-4-2 used by Spain, and a 4-4-2 used by Liverpool might be similar when we see it in the screen before the match, but that's all the resemblance (even if you played all the 4 reds in the Spanish team at the same time!)

Why I disagree his point? If we hadn't a team to play 2 strikers, or we weren't close to it, Joe, Rafa would have never used a 2 strikers system these years, and he has. So if you ask me if I want Villa, yes, please. (But I don't think we will)

The only problem I see is man management. If you're a Rafa-esque kind of coach who find the best answer to every game, you might be tempted to find solutions for certain games that do not imply 2 strikers, and Rafa seems to like our 4-2-3-1. We cannot buy Villa to have Torres in the bench or viceversa.

The question wasn't meant to be about Villa specifically because I really don't think we are going to get him, its more about a straight up out and out striker that himself would work best either as a loneman up top or with another striker, and that playing outwide would kind of be a "miss use" of talents. I am asking if in general LFC is not currently built for this, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING our run of success in the 4-2-3-1 and how well the team gelled during that period.

I am aware that two teams who say 4-4-2 on the team sheet can play in a multitude of different ways, but there is a specific ethos to that system that would include a torres and Villa up top (or whatever striker you like) that would be fundamentally different from our 4-2-3-1 set up for the run in of the 07/08 campaign.

And Sabre, once we had success with the 4-2-3-1 Rafa was VERY reluctant to change to any other system which is VERY VERY rare for Rafa. So although I do recognize that we have the components to physically throw out a side capable of what people normally thing of 4-4-2, if their sum is not greater than how our 4-2-3-1 works together (even with the addition of VIlla) then I can't see Rafa changing or even going after a striker this summer at all.

And once again I am brought back to another one of my original questions, what is left for us to improve based on our old system? I feel it would be like cutting wires on a bomb. AND is there a single change or player that can be brought to the team that will instantly allow us to adopt to a new system and execute it to an even higher level than before?

by **Effes** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:30 am

JoeTerp wrote:is there a single change or player that can be brought to the team that will instantly allow us to adopt to a new system and execute it to an even higher level than before?

Andrei Arshavin, IMHO.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:53 am

I must confess I might be in the significant minority on here and I'm setting myself up for a huge fall, but I'm actually yet to be convinced that Villa and Torres actually fit as a partnership. Now I know they've banged in some goals so far in the Euro's, but they don't to me look like a natural partnership. FWIW, I actually agree with whoever it was who said Torres may not be the type of striker which would have a natural partner. If you're not going to go with the "big guy, little guy" partnership which most teams don't these days, then you at least want your two strikers to give you a bit of depth. By that I mean you you ideally want one to drop in readily, to come and play in and around the holding midfielder and intersperse with wide midfielders. I'm not actually sure that either Villa or Torres do that, both seem to me to be more the predator.

For this reason, and against top-class defending I think they'll struggle. I actually think the Italians will put Spain out and neither Villa nor Torres will impress. Least nobody can accuse me of sitting on the fence. I'll even go futher and guess that the Russians will cause Holland as many problems as they can cope with. The difference is that the Russians have a lot of depth in their attack. One of their guys drops in readily. He's only played the one game so far and in it he scored a goal. He also provided the first time incisive pass for the other goal, from the half way line, wide out on the right touchline. If you are going to play a 4-4-2 (which incidently I don't think Rafa is, and I kind of don't blame him either which is a bit of a novelty these days) then this fella is the perfect fit for Torres and Gerrard IMHO. Arshavin.

The bandwagon had already pulled out of the sheds and been around the track a few times before I actually saw him play so he's by no means my spot. I'm happy to climb aboard though as I think he's a wonderful little player. Whoever gets him is getting as bargain for anything less than a huge wedge of cash IMHO.

by **skatesy** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:55 am

I say screw G. Barry and get David SILVA and play him on the left, maybe even move Ryan Babel over to the right.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:14 pm

bigmick wrote:I must confess I might be in the significant minority on here and I'm setting myself up for a huge fall, but I'm actually yet to be convinced that Villa and Torres actually fit as a partnership. Now I know they've banged in some goals so far in the Euro's, but they don't to me look like a natural partnership. FWIW, I actually agree with whoever it was who said Torres may not be the type of striker which would have a natural partner. If you're not going to go with the "big guy, little guy" partnership which most teams don't these days, then you at least want your two strikers to give you a bit of depth. By that I mean you you ideally want one to drop in readily, to come and play in and around the holding midfielder and intersperse with wide midfielders. I'm not actually sure that either Villa or Torres do that, both seem to me to be more the predator.

For this reason, and against top-class defending I think they'll struggle. I actually think the Italians will put Spain out and neither Villa nor Torres will impress. Least nobody can accuse me of sitting on the fence. I'll even go futher and guess that the Russians will cause Holland as many problems as they can cope with. The difference is that the Russians have a lot of depth in their attack. One of their guys drops in readily. He's only played the one game so far and in it he scored a goal. He also provided the first time incisive pass for the other goal, from the half way line, wide out on the right touchline. If you are going to play a 4-4-2 (which incidently I don't think Rafa is, and I kind of don't blame him either which is a bit of a novelty these days) then this fella is the perfect fit for Torres and Gerrard IMHO. Arshavin.

The bandwagon had already pulled out of the sheds and been around the track a few times before I actually saw him play so he's by no means my spot. I'm happy to climb aboard though as I think he's a wonderful little player. Whoever gets him is getting as bargain for anything less than a huge wedge of cash IMHO.

I'm not so sure about Villa, Mick. He's been doing a fair bit of dropping deep and linking play for Spain, leaving Torres as the predator up top. I've never seen him play for Valencia, though, so I've no idea if that's his natural game or if he's being asked to do a job for Spain. It's been reasonably effective so far though, IMO.

by **Effes** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:19 am

bigmick wrote:then this fella is the perfect fit for Torres and Gerrard IMHO. Arshavin.

The bandwagon had already pulled out of the sheds and been around the track a few times before I actually saw him play so he's by no means my spot. I'm happy to climb aboard though as I think he's a wonderful little player. Whoever gets him is getting as bargain for anything less than a huge wedge of cash IMHO.

Mick,

I saw him destroy Bayer Leverkusen away when Zenit won 4-1.

His work-rate is like Essien's, he's got pace and Hiddink says he's the most
intelligent football player he has coached.

High praise from a coach I rate as highly (if not higher) than Rafa.

He'd be perfect for us, and about the same price as David Silva has been getting quoted for us.

I saw a thread about him on RAWK that was started in 2006 - so he beat most I'd think.

by **bigmick** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:55 am

bigmick wrote:For this reason, and against top-class defending I think they'll struggle. I actually think the Italians will put Spain out and neither Villa nor Torres will impress. Least nobody can accuse me of sitting on the fence. I'll even go futher and guess that the Russians will cause Holland as many problems as they can cope with.

Half of the prediction came true which is nice. Arshavin was once again absolutely top-drawer as well. Given his age it makes you wonder where he's been hiding all these years.

by **Sabre** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:08 am

bigmick wrote:
bigmick wrote:For this reason, and against top-class defending I think they'll struggle. I actually think the Italians will put Spain out and neither Villa nor Torres will impress. Least nobody can accuse me of sitting on the fence. I'll even go futher and guess that the Russians will cause Holland as many problems as they can cope with.

Half of the prediction came true which is nice. Arshavin was once again absolutely top-drawer as well. Given his age it makes you wonder where he's been hiding all these years.

Mind you the difficult part of the prediction is done. Italy might perfectly beat us today, and if they do, I won't complain like Bad Bob about the "boring" Italian stuff: In football when you're succesful it means you get right things.

As for where he has been hiding: In Russia!!

Which is an obvious answer, I know, but not a trivial one: Russian players in the nineties didn't stay in Russia, the Onopkos, the Karpins, the Korneievs all played either in Spain, or somewhere else, where as this lads many of them play in Russia. An agent of players I know tells me that in the latter years a lot of money of oil is invested in Russia's league and they're able again to keep their best players. So maybe we shall see torpedoes, dinamos and spartaks having a say in the following years.

by **SundanceKid** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:29 am

JoeTerp wrote:I know we might not even bid for him, but it applies to Liverpool in general going after another top class forward. Would it be like buying an HD DVD player without having an HD TV or an HD satellite package?

If we buy another striker in the Villa mold, he would HAVE to start alongside Torres, meaning a 4-4-2 (unless we switchted to a 5-3-2 or 3-5-2) Do we really have the players to play a 4-4-2 at the moment? Especially if you are in the camp of Gerrard must be played in the middle he is the captain that is where he belongs that is his best position. Then it is a decision of can Kuyt and Babel play these kind of less advanced, less help from the middle, wide positions? I am not so sure, and Babel would be pretty mad because he sees himself moving more and more central and more and more forward and this would be a step back in both directions. Now all that is left is Pennant (who I actually rate higher than most) and Yossi. In my opinion an 4-4-2 even with VIlla and Torres wouldn't be as good as our main starting XI from the end of last year if Pennant and Yossi are the wingers. SO now we would find ourselves right back where we started a while ago needing Two wingers with maybe not even enough money to buy one at the type of quality level that we are looking for.

So now I am not sure what to buy. it seemed like the main weakness of the 4-2-3-1 last year was maybe the fullbacks and MAYBE the "other" defensive midfielder. Well we have addressed both fullbacks already (assuming we officially sign Dossena) and I am guessing Barry would be played alongside Mascherano if brought in (or played alongside Gerrard making a 4-1-4-1 out of the 4-2-3-1). After that I can't really see any more improvements we can make. Kuyt has made that position his own and I am afraid the whole thing could implode if he was taken out of the equation even though a lot of people think we can probably add a more clinical finisher or a better crosser or someone with more flair. Babel has so much upside I would be worried about bringing in a replacement for him as well. I think in a way we are stuck with this team unless we want to "blow it up" and have a huge firesale to raise funds for a 4-4-2 starting XI

Marvelous post. Everything is agreeable. But the most important thing is which formation is going to outscore opponents. I know it's foolish to say, but we don't need to be strong in all parts of the field if we can outscore our opponents every time, right?

by **Fo Dne** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:50 am

bigmick wrote:
bigmick wrote:For this reason, and against top-class defending I think they'll struggle. I actually think the Italians will put Spain out and neither Villa nor Torres will impress. Least nobody can accuse me of sitting on the fence. I'll even go futher and guess that the Russians will cause Holland as many problems as they can cope with.

Half of the prediction came true which is nice. Arshavin was once again absolutely top-drawer as well. Given his age it makes you wonder where he's been hiding all these years.

I have to agree about Arshavin. I've seen him a few times this season and everytime he's stood out. I'm sure he used to play in Spain for Celta Vigo...

He looks an excellent player though and one I'd definately take at Liverpool, he would perfect in the hole behind Torres and I think he's got that eye for a pass that we lack and also an excellent short game both in terms of his own movement and appreciation of the movement of others around him. He also doesn't seem to waste the ball which is a great thing to have. Not only that, but looks like he can score a goal himself.

I actually think if you put him in the same team as Torres and Gerrard you'd be well onto something and finally have a player who'd be able to help get those two into the game in an attacking sense against the better sides.

by **Fo Dne** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:51 am

SundanceKid wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:I know we might not even bid for him, but it applies to Liverpool in general going after another top class forward. Would it be like buying an HD DVD player without having an HD TV or an HD satellite package?

If we buy another striker in the Villa mold, he would HAVE to start alongside Torres, meaning a 4-4-2 (unless we switchted to a 5-3-2 or 3-5-2) Do we really have the players to play a 4-4-2 at the moment? Especially if you are in the camp of Gerrard must be played in the middle he is the captain that is where he belongs that is his best position. Then it is a decision of can Kuyt and Babel play these kind of less advanced, less help from the middle, wide positions? I am not so sure, and Babel would be pretty mad because he sees himself moving more and more central and more and more forward and this would be a step back in both directions. Now all that is left is Pennant (who I actually rate higher than most) and Yossi. In my opinion an 4-4-2 even with VIlla and Torres wouldn't be as good as our main starting XI from the end of last year if Pennant and Yossi are the wingers. SO now we would find ourselves right back where we started a while ago needing Two wingers with maybe not even enough money to buy one at the type of quality level that we are looking for.

So now I am not sure what to buy. it seemed like the main weakness of the 4-2-3-1 last year was maybe the fullbacks and MAYBE the "other" defensive midfielder. Well we have addressed both fullbacks already (assuming we officially sign Dossena) and I am guessing Barry would be played alongside Mascherano if brought in (or played alongside Gerrard making a 4-1-4-1 out of the 4-2-3-1). After that I can't really see any more improvements we can make. Kuyt has made that position his own and I am afraid the whole thing could implode if he was taken out of the equation even though a lot of people think we can probably add a more clinical finisher or a better crosser or someone with more flair. Babel has so much upside I would be worried about bringing in a replacement for him as well. I think in a way we are stuck with this team unless we want to "blow it up" and have a huge firesale to raise funds for a 4-4-2 starting XI

Marvelous post. Everything is agreeable. But the most important thing is which formation is going to outscore opponents. I know it's foolish to say, but we don't need to be strong in all parts of the field if we can outscore our opponents every time, right?

So basically what you're saying is try to score more than the opposition to win?

Genius, why didn't I think of that one? :laugh:

by **SundanceKid** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:19 am

Fo Dne wrote:
SundanceKid wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:I know we might not even bid for him, but it applies to Liverpool in general going after another top class forward. Would it be like buying an HD DVD player without having an HD TV or an HD satellite package?

If we buy another striker in the Villa mold, he would HAVE to start alongside Torres, meaning a 4-4-2 (unless we switchted to a 5-3-2 or 3-5-2) Do we really have the players to play a 4-4-2 at the moment? Especially if you are in the camp of Gerrard must be played in the middle he is the captain that is where he belongs that is his best position. Then it is a decision of can Kuyt and Babel play these kind of less advanced, less help from the middle, wide positions? I am not so sure, and Babel would be pretty mad because he sees himself moving more and more central and more and more forward and this would be a step back in both directions. Now all that is left is Pennant (who I actually rate higher than most) and Yossi. In my opinion an 4-4-2 even with VIlla and Torres wouldn't be as good as our main starting XI from the end of last year if Pennant and Yossi are the wingers. SO now we would find ourselves right back where we started a while ago needing Two wingers with maybe not even enough money to buy one at the type of quality level that we are looking for.

So now I am not sure what to buy. it seemed like the main weakness of the 4-2-3-1 last year was maybe the fullbacks and MAYBE the "other" defensive midfielder. Well we have addressed both fullbacks already (assuming we officially sign Dossena) and I am guessing Barry would be played alongside Mascherano if brought in (or played alongside Gerrard making a 4-1-4-1 out of the 4-2-3-1). After that I can't really see any more improvements we can make. Kuyt has made that position his own and I am afraid the whole thing could implode if he was taken out of the equation even though a lot of people think we can probably add a more clinical finisher or a better crosser or someone with more flair. Babel has so much upside I would be worried about bringing in a replacement for him as well. I think in a way we are stuck with this team unless we want to "blow it up" and have a huge firesale to raise funds for a 4-4-2 starting XI

Marvelous post. Everything is agreeable. But the most important thing is which formation is going to outscore opponents. I know it's foolish to say, but we don't need to be strong in all parts of the field if we can outscore our opponents every time, right?

So basically what you're saying is try to score more than the opposition to win?

Genius, why didn't I think of that one?

He's creating a formation so that we can use all of our best players in positions they favor, when that should be put to rest unless it can definitely produce more goals than just purchasing Villa and mold our formation to suit him.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:51 am

s@int wrote:I don't really see a problem Joe to be honest.
Reina

Degen Carra Agger Dossena

Gerrard Masch Barry

Villa Torres Babel

With attacking fullbacks, and both Gerrard and Barry comfortable in the wide areas I can't see that width would be too much of a problem.

Reina

Degen Carra Agger Dossena

Masch Barry
Gerrard
Villa Torres Babel

I prefer 4-4-2 myself so I would prefer

Reina

Degen Carra Agger Dossena

Kuyt Gerrard Masch Barry

Torres Villa

I do see a problem however if we don't buy a striker as neither Kuyt or Babel would fill me with confidence if Torres was injured or needed a rest.

think it will bew Degen 2nd choice behind Arbeloa mate, buto ther than that I would be vewry happy with those line ups.

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