Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:34 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Can someone please just tell me what Raffa has done wrong thats all.

I will try to answer it seriously Nanny.

1/ He has never sorted out the wide positions since he came, even though he identified them as his main concern on his arrival.

2/Bought too many players that arn't of sufficient quality for a prospective title challenging team.

3/ Swopped and changed formations, players positions, rotated (just for Mick) and made some very strange decisions (that haven't worked)

4/Never made a title challenge in 4 seasons with a team that I am sure we all know, has had enough ability to at least challenge for the title in the last couple of seasons at least.

Then we come to the guessing part. I think that he has never built the title winning team spirit that could have helped us through the bad times. I don't think he is very good at motivating players (my opinion )I think at times he has upset players (either by dropping them or not picking them)who have then not performed as well as they could, while other players seem to have struggled with lack of confidence for much too long.

I suppose most of that you could put down to belief. I don't think he has ever really got the team really believing they are the best and that they really can win the league.

I think we will win plenty of cups with Rafa as manager, I honestly don't know if we will ever really challenge for the title.

Maybe I am just p!ssed off because the mancs have won it again, but to me it looks as far away now as ever.

by **NANNY RED** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:39 pm

Rush Job wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Can someone please just tell me what Raffa has done wrong thats all.

I know nan, made me feel sick reading some of it.

Der you know what i cant be ar.sed arguin about Raffa anymore, i believe in him and as far as im concerned thats all that matters,

There are more important things to be sorted at our club than the manager and the premership and thats gettin rid of the yanks. Thats my priority first and foremost and should be every fans priority not who will win us the league, Cause if these two stay in charge we could be looking at a lot worse fourth

by **NANNY RED** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:43 pm

Saint you were to serious there :laugh:

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 pm

My hearts broken, I pour out my thoughts and feelings and all you can do is laugh

by **Emerald Red** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:47 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Can someone please just tell me what Raffa has done wrong thats all.

Hasn't won us the league instantly.

by **Emerald Red** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:52 pm

s@int wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Can someone please just tell me what Raffa has done wrong thats all.

I will try to answer it seriously Nanny.

1/ He has never sorted out the wide positions since he came, even though he identified them as his main concern on his arrival.

2/Bought too many players that arn't of sufficient quality for a prospective title challenging team.

3/ Swopped and changed formations, players positions, rotated (just for Mick) and made some very strange decisions (that haven't worked)

4/Never made a title challenge in 4 seasons with a team that I am sure we all know, has had enough ability to at least challenge for the title in the last couple of seasons at least.

Then we come to the guessing part. I think that he has never built the title winning team spirit that could have helped us through the bad times. I don't think he is very good at motivating players (my opinion )I think at times he has upset players (either by dropping them or not picking them)who have then not performed as well as they could, while other players seem to have struggled with lack of confidence for much too long.

I suppose most of that you could put down to belief. I don't think he has ever really got the team really believing they are the best and that they really can win the league.

I think we will win plenty of cups with Rafa as manager, I honestly don't know if we will ever really challenge for the title.

Maybe I am just p!ssed off because the mancs have won it again, but to me it looks as far away now as ever.

Hate to do it to you s@int, but there is a glaring contradiction in your post there.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:09 am

Sorry to laugh Saint cause i know it really came from you heart but by jove i think Emerald has done an Inspector Cleuso there good spot Emerald

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:28 am

Emerald Red wrote:
s@int wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Can someone please just tell me what Raffa has done wrong thats all.

I will try to answer it seriously Nanny.

1/ He has never sorted out the wide positions since he came, even though he identified them as his main concern on his arrival.

2/Bought too many players that arn't of sufficient quality for a prospective title challenging team.

3/ Swopped and changed formations, players positions, rotated (just for Mick) and made some very strange decisions (that haven't worked)

4/Never made a title challenge in 4 seasons with a team that I am sure we all know, has had enough ability to at least challenge for the title in the last couple of seasons at least.

Then we come to the guessing part. I think that he has never built the title winning team spirit that could have helped us through the bad times. I don't think he is very good at motivating players (my opinion )I think at times he has upset players (either by dropping them or not picking them)who have then not performed as well as they could, while other players seem to have struggled with lack of confidence for much too long.

I suppose most of that you could put down to belief. I don't think he has ever really got the team really believing they are the best and that they really can win the league.

I think we will win plenty of cups with Rafa as manager, I honestly don't know if we will ever really challenge for the title.

Maybe I am just p!ssed off because the mancs have won it again, but to me it looks as far away now as ever.

Hate to do it to you s@int, but there is a glaring contradiction in your post there.

I don't see any contradiction mate. He has bought 48 players a lot of players not up to the mark, but we still have a team good enough to challenge. FFS 4 years on and we are still 5 players short of winning the title (according to most on this site) 2 full backs, 2 wingers and a striker.

Considering he started with Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Riise, Gerrard and Kewell (all of whom have played this season) that doesnt seem a lot to show for £160million and 4 seasons.

by **bigmick** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:31 am

Oh dear. Stir up the hornets nest with a post which which wasn't overly critical and people leap in (not to answer any of the questions posed in in either my or Saints post of course) but to question the validity of the posters opinions. The first thing to point out is the title of the thread, it is a "my indictment of the Rafa Benitez regime" thread which would kind of lead you to think that it was OK to voice any misgivings about the managers methodology, but seemingly people find that impossible to stomach.

Anyway, sticking to the topic in hand and taking them one by one.

Firstly Sabre's post is as usual a good one. I like his point about Rafa not being perturbed about Gerrard being "loved" more than him and whether Mourinho could deal with that. It's an interesting point and one which hasn't been raised before, there may well be something in it.

He also talks about Rafa's purchases in Reina, Alonso, Masherano and torres and the fact (because it is a fact and to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever disputed that is it is so) that the manager has improved the team and particularly the squad since he first came. He's right as well in that the questions about Mourinho raised by Saint and myself are hypothetical, but then again so are almost all the assertions that such and such a manager wouldn't have done as well as Rafa, or wouldn't have won the League without the money etc. Debate about football involves lots of hypothetical questions, "we would've won if he'd given the penalty no?" "we would have performaed better/worse in the league if we rotated less" etc etc.

Leon's question is also an interesting one and I must confess I've been giving it some thought myself recently. It's probably worthpointing out in the interests of fairness that I've not to the best of my knowledge called him egotistical (although I have called him arrogant on occasions and talked of "would his ego all him...." so it's probably fair enough). I do think the manager is stubborn which is not necessarily a fault but probably is in the degree to which he is, and like everybody else he is replaceable but it may not be easy to replace him for somebody better or equal. "Inadequate" and "buffoon" though are not words I have ever used to describe the manager, as he is neither. The point though still holds good despite that, and perhaps I should ask John if he could change the picture to something more appropriate (no doubt people would have suggestions what that might be).

Igor goes back to the hypothetical thing, and says that he believes that given time and money Rafa will win us the title which is fair enough. He does though distill the debate into Rafa resting Torres for two games

He probably knows theres more to it than that but fair enough.

Then a bit of light hearted stuff, ending with Sounness getting bludgeoned to death by a Dildo in an alley, which I'm not sure refers to me being the person who did it or the implement I'd be using given my way of earning a living :laugh:

It's not the first time my occupation has been brought into a debate of football on here but I suppose it's fair play when all said and done.

Anyways there it is. Sorry if some don't like it, but its a thread about "my indictment of the Rafa Benitez regime" and I've added my opinion. I actually think the manager has done a decent job and has built a group of players which is good enough to challenge for the title. Some people think he's done a good job, but hasn't built a group of players which are good enough to challenge for the title. Ah well, we agree to differ.

by **LFC2007** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:35 am

bigmick wrote:
s@int wrote:Maureen did very well with little money at Porto - he did very well with lots of money at Chelsea. I am sure he had to put up with a lot of cr@p while he was at Chelsea (having to buy players he didn't want, being told he couldn't buy a player he needed,having appointments of staff made against his wishes etc)

I think Maureen would have done better in the league than Rafa did this season(I think we would have challenged for, if not won the title), but maybe not as good in Europe (but who knows?) The reason I think he would have done better in the league is Rafa makes lots of changes/decisions/gambles and the more changes/decisions/gambles you make the more likely it is to make a mistake (and Rafa made too many mistakes this season)

Would Rafa have won 2 league titles if he had gone to Chelsea ? (who knows). Mourinho won 5
cups in 3 seasons - not bad.

Remember but for Mourinho the mancs would already have the record for the most titles

Question for you - do you believe we would have gone 4 seasons without a title challenge if Mourinho had been our manager ?

You want to be careful with the last line of your post Saint, people who won't hear a word against the manager will no doubt accuse you of starting a campaign to get rid of the manager and bring Mourinho in. My hunch is you're not doing that, merely trying to sift through the nonsense about the manager being irreplaceable as he's some sort of footballing God.

I could though follow up your question with two questions of my own. Firstly, had Rafa been in charge instead of Mourinhio at Chelsea, would he have won the title in his first two seasons in English football? Now I know many will say that Mourinho had huge funds which meant a huge quality squad which obviouisly he did, but I wonder whether the opportunity and temptation to "style" with such quality players, to baffle the football World with clever selections would have proved too much for Rafa. Would he have been able to find the consistency, the maddeningly repetitive consistency which Mourinho's Chelsea had and which won them two League titles?

My second question doesn't require anybody to remember back a couple of years it's more recent. Had Rafa taken over when Avram Grant did at Stamford Bridge, with those players, with the injuries, with the African Nations looming, with certain star players making it clear they were leaving in the Summer, would he have launched a title challenge from there. Once more the same temptations would apply, big quality squad making it the original stylers sweet shop, the opportunity to astound the football World with fairground rotation. Would he have gone for the "style" and if he did would it have it have worked?

If we had the desired quality, "styling" I'm sure, would decrease. If we had an Ashley Cole, a Gael Clichy, or a Patrice Evra, they'd be picked consistently.

Similarly, if we had a Ronaldo, a Giggs, a Nani or a Joe Cole, or even a Kalou, they would play more often than not as they have the quality to sustain their place.

Since the players we have are relatively, and in some instances, very poor in comparison, they've failed to find form and can't be relied upon. That's nothing to do with being played consistently or otherwise, IMO, as they've all had spells to find form consistently and have failed - Babel, Riise for example.

Key ingredients which we've yet to find, and that's pretty much the difference, IMO, between the top tier and us.

The answers to these and your question is "we don't know". It's speculation. But I'd say Rafa's done a decent job surrounding Gerrard and Carra of players with quality in this 4 years. And he just has to sort out the wings and a couple of details.

Agreed, it's also speculative to state that had it not been for Mourinho the Manc's would've overhauled our league title total.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:43 am

I think if Rafa picks one formation(preferably 4231) and takes it easy on rotation, then we will definitely make a challenge for the title. Once we switched to the current formation we were in very good form until the end of the season. I think he's learned his lesson and we'll see a more settled team next yr.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:45 am

Yet the last match of the season he changed the formation and played 4-4-2 ? Doesn't prove to me he has learned anything tbh.

by **bigmick** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:45 am

SORRY, MEANT TO QUOTE LFC2007 HERE IN HIS BIT ABOUT RAFA ROTATING LESS IF THE PLAYERS WERE BETTER.

Well fair play mate you've stuck to that line consistently over the last season or so. I'm not sure I buy it but going forward I hope you're proven right as we continue to improve the first team, as I'm pretty confident we will. My own feeling is that the better the "options" and the "possibilities" the more Rafa would rotate given the opportunity, but as it's all "hypothetical" I guess we'll we never know for sure whether this was his policy all along, or whether it was more of a "seeing of the light".

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:54 am

This season we have seen Carra playing Right Back, Arbeloa playing defensive midfield, Crouch playing winger, Gerrard playing Left midfield, Voronin playing left winger, Sissoko playing attacking midfield, and no doubt lots more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

We have played 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and a couple of occasions when I haven't had a clue what formation we played.
So I don't see how anyone can say that Rafa has seen the light.

by **LFC2007** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:57 am

bigmick wrote:SORRY, MEANT TO QUOTE LFC2007 HERE IN HIS BIT ABOUT RAFA ROTATING LESS IF THE PLAYERS WERE BETTER.

Well fair play mate you've stuck to that line consistently over the last season or so. I'm not sure I buy it but going forward I hope you're proven right as we continue to improve the first team, as I'm pretty confident we will. My own feeling is that the better the "options" and the "possibilities" the more Rafa would rotate given the opportunity, but as it's all "hypothetical" I guess we'll we never know for sure whether this was his policy all along, or whether it was more of a "seeing of the light".

F*ckin' outrageous.

On a serious note, my views since the close of last season have changed with respect to that line. I initially thought we may have been able to challenge for the title with the players we'd acquired - as I thought they'd be able to sustain form, but I was wrong. It's been an eye opener to me tbh, the differences in quality in these areas is stark*, and that's been the most obvious point I've taken from this season.

Obviously, if we manage to go and win the league next season without sufficiently strengthening these areas, you can call me a clueless gimp, without hesitation. :pirate

* In part down to the fact that our rivals to whom we aspire(d) also strengthened, and it was difficult to foresee what effect they would have on the level of their respective squads.

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