Liverpool FC Forum

by **woof woof !** » Sat May 10, 2008 10:47 am

In a 442 formation, CM for me. Love to see Gerrard steaming forward from the center of midfield with two strikers and maybe some wide men ahead of him providing options for Gerrard and a dilemma for the oppo, plus of course at CM his outstanding defensive and long range passing abilities are also brought into play. Rafa's selections however apparently suggest that he doesn't think we possess a striker of sufficient quality to play alongside Torres in a 442 and therefore 4231 will be our preferred formation until the partner for Torres situation is resolved.

I agree that Gerrards looked good playing "behind" Torres in a 4231 formation but from that position if Gerrards' forced backwards to assume some defensive responsibility Torres (or any lone striker) is left isolated and becomes little more than a spectator, again highlighting the need for us to bring in more quality in the wider areas to provide more sources of supply.

by **skatesy** » Sat May 10, 2008 12:06 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Gerrard scores 23 goals from right midfield and 21 (to date) from the hole and people still maintain he is best in the middle.

Steven Gerrard is best when he is not shckled with the responsibility of playing in the middle of the park and is free to create, suypply and do what ever the fu.ck he likes - FACT

Just because he may score a couple of more goals when playing in the RM position consistently does mean that he is better in that position than in the CM position. Regardless of the goal count (even though it is pretty close), I feel that he is more influential in the centre of the park and makes the team, overall, better as a whole.

by **JC_81** » Sat May 10, 2008 1:35 pm

Bigmick - great first post in this thread, very good analysis.

Leon - couldn't agree more that Gerrard is best when he isn't shackled by defensive duties. The stats prove it.

For the couple of posters who still maintain that Gerrard is capable of sitting deep and 'dictating play', that is complete bollox. He has never been able to dictate the pace of a game in his life and it's exactly why he shouldn't be played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2. That's why he can never be compared to Keane and Vieira - that is what they were so good at.

Gerrard's main attributes are that he creates and scores goals and does all his damage in the final third. He's hard to pigeon-hole into a position or to compare to anyone else in his style of play - it is very unique. St Mike I think it was compared him to Nedved - that is about as close as there has been to a player in Gerrard's mould (an attacking midfielder who also happened to be a good at most things). IMO Gerrard is better than Nedved was at club level, but Nedved was much better in International games, but there are several reasons for that and it is for another debate.

I like Gerrard playing where he is now in a 4-2-3-1. He can play in a 4-4-2 at centre mid against lesser teams at Anfield where he can still get forward plenty, but is wasted there against decent opposition. If we had good attacking full backs then you could try him at the head on a midfield diamond in a 4-4-2 and scrap wingers as we can't seem to find any decent ones.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat May 10, 2008 2:00 pm

For the couple of posters who still maintain that Gerrard is capable of sitting deep and 'dictating play', that is complete bollox. He has never been able to dictate the pace of a game in his life and it's exactly why he shouldn't be played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2. That's why he can never be compared to Keane and Vieira - that is what they were so good at.

Beg to differ there, Gerrard was and rightly so compared to Vieira and Keane back in their day, as both were 'box to box' midfielders. Neither of them really sat nor did they really dictate the game. Emmanuel Petit, and Paul Scholes IMO dictated both players teams respectively more than either Keane or Vieira.

Xabi Alonso "sits deep" and can "dictate" a game, Keane and Vieira were more of the Gerrard ilk, a box to box CM. And that is probably why you'll find that the Scouser (in his early days especially was likened to) both Keane and Vieira, all three have more or less the same impact whther it be bursting forward and tracking and tackling back, than to sit deep and "dictate" a game.

by **JC_81** » Sat May 10, 2008 3:24 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
For the couple of posters who still maintain that Gerrard is capable of sitting deep and 'dictating play', that is complete bollox. He has never been able to dictate the pace of a game in his life and it's exactly why he shouldn't be played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2. That's why he can never be compared to Keane and Vieira - that is what they were so good at.

Beg to differ there, Gerrard was and rightly so compared to Vieira and Keane back in their day, as both were 'box to box' midfielders. Neither of them really sat nor did they really dictate the game. Emmanuel Petit, and Paul Scholes IMO dictated both players teams respectively more than either Keane or Vieira.

Xabi Alonso "sits deep" and can "dictate" a game, Keane and Vieira were more of the Gerrard ilk, a box to box CM. And that is probably why you'll find that the Scouser (in his early days especially was likened to) both Keane and Vieira, all three have more or less the same impact whther it be bursting forward and tracking and tackling back, than to sit deep and "dictate" a game.

I didn't say that Gerrard has less of an impact on games than Vieira or Keane did. Nor did I say that Vieira or Keane were 'sitting midfielders' What I did say was that Vieira and Keane could both dictate games from midfield and Gerrard can't, and I don't think anyone can seriously deny that.

Keane was a true box to box midfielder and became a holding midfielder in his later years, Vieira was predominantly a holding midfielder who was capable of the occasional burst forward (less capable of that these days), and Gerrard is the most versatile of the three, having made the transition from aggressive defensive midfielder, to box to box midfielder, to his current role of attacking midfielder (which I believe is his best position).

I wouldn't categorise Gerrard along with Keane and Vieira because playing as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2 they were better than Gerrard is at that role, because they have the ability to dictate play. As an attacking midfielder however, Gerrard is far more effective than either Keane or Vieira were.

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 10, 2008 3:40 pm

If Gerrard can't dictate a game, call me Ali Bongo.

by **europian-kings** » Sat May 10, 2008 3:59 pm

greenbyname_redbynature wrote:Steven Gerrard's best position for me will always be a central midfielder. bombing on from the middle. he'd still score plenty of goals, he'd still assist plenty, but more important he is one of the few players in the world who can play that 60 yard ball out to the wing and still make the ground up to get in the box.

the fact that the fella is the most complete player this club has ever seen IMO, means he can play near enough anywhere on a football pitch and be fantastic. he's played the holding role for his country on numerous occasions and didn't look out of place. he's played as a forward for england and scored (think it was against hungry) he's played on the right for Liverpool and scored 20 plus goals. he's played just in behind a lone forward and still been nominated for player of the year.

but for me his best position in the centre of the park where he can pretty much do as he wants. he can sit deep and dictate play or he can bomb on forward and score or he can do the box to box work (bit of both).

i agree...this position for me if where i love seeing him, he s involved with everything we do where at when he is more attacking he cant get back as much which i think he liked doing on occasions.
but hey....steven gerrard is stevem gerrard...he is stil the best midfielder in the world no matter what role he plays

by **greenbyname_redbynature** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:36 pm

john craig wrote:What I did say was that Vieira and Keane could both dictate games from midfield and Gerrard can't, and I don't think anyone can seriously deny that.

i can deny it very seriously.

steven gerrard dictated absoloutely everything Liverpool did when he was in the centre of the park. he's the complete footballer and is the best central midfielder in the premiership. as soon as you take gerrard out of the middle of the park you take away is biggest assest, his ability to change defence into attack with the ease.

none of our other central midfielders have the ability to dictate the play in the same way gerrard does. mascherano's long range passing is nowhere near gerrard and alonso doesn't have the pace to start and finish attacks like gerrard does.

to say "that Gerrard is capable of sitting deep and 'dictating play', that is complete bollox" is probably the biggest pile of shit i've ever read in relation to steven gerrard. the lad constantly dictated and won games single handedly for liverpool football club.

as for vieria and keane being able to dictate games, they could in the fact that drove their other players on but they didn't dictate the play in the way gerrard does. keane had scholes beside him to play the ball and veiria had petit/parlour/fabregas. they are completely different central midfielders to steven gerrard. the fact that those two were more defensive midfielders is the obvious difference, but also gerrard has more talent in his feet. keane was more a masherano but added goals, veiria was like gilberto is now. but the biggest equivilant to steven gerrard is paul scholes. both who dictate the game for their clubs.

by **Owzat** » Sun May 11, 2008 8:58 am

Gerrard's best position is wherever he is needed, he played on the right and did the job because we needed him there. This season the strikers bar Torres have not been up to scratch so he played off Torres and did the job because we needed him there. I would guess he'd prefer to play a CM role, but since we have Alonso and Mascherano there then we may as well accept he can play anywhere and use that.

Next season I pray to the footballing gods (aka Liverpool legends!) that we sign another top striker, maybe Berbatov before Chelsea close in, and also a wide player on either flank. Then we will have a serious problem, how to accommodate all the top players. I will say the only position Gerrard has played and not played to his usual standard is LM. I think Gerrard could make any position his own, possibly even goalkeeper, but I reserve judgement on LM.

And the old debate about the best midfielder, well Gerrard isn't just capable of playing many roles but has. How many other midfielders can boast that? Of course (some) people will always harp on about his performances for England, he's not alone in failing to reproduce club form but I feel his performances are better than some suggest. I have to laugh at suggestions he 'goes missing in big games', getting to be one of the most common and tedious accusations around. Anyway here's a few key goalscoring memories/big game goals in the Rafa era

Since Rafa arrived :-

- Gerrard has four goals against Arsenal, one against Chelsea but none against the mancs
- Gerrard scored twice in the FA Cup final against West Ham, pretty important goals and game
- Gerrard scored in the do or die game against Olympiakos
- Gerrard scored in the thrilling comeback in Istanbul
- Gerrard has scored 65 goals in 198 appearances, at a better strike rate than Voronin, Crouch and Kuyt (0.328 goals/appearance)
- Gerrard scored in seven consecutive games in November and December, Liverpool won all but the Reading game

Other goals you'd have to peruse to show importance, those are some of the more obvious ones (and a few random stats) and it is ONLY over the course of four seasons/Rafa's reign. Not bad considering he's played several different roles and we're debating which is his best..............

by **lakes10** » Sun May 11, 2008 10:57 am

Gerrard's best position is ...........Playing for Liverpool.

If Gerrard dont think we can win the Prem next year then he will go.

Time for other cups is over, This club needs to end the wait for the prem.
Rafa (if he is still here next year) needs to make it very clear to Gerrard that his aim is to win the Prem and thats all. if we ened up in the FA Cup or CL final then good, but only by doing so by resting big player for prem games....not the other way round.

To keep Gerrard is a must right now.

by **JC_81** » Sun May 11, 2008 12:54 pm

greenbyname_redbynature wrote:
john craig wrote:What I did say was that Vieira and Keane could both dictate games from midfield and Gerrard can't, and I don't think anyone can seriously deny that.

i can deny it very seriously.

steven gerrard dictated absoloutely everything Liverpool did when he was in the centre of the park. he's the complete footballer and is the best central midfielder in the premiership. as soon as you take gerrard out of the middle of the park you take away is biggest assest, his ability to change defence into attack with the ease.

none of our other central midfielders have the ability to dictate the play in the same way gerrard does. mascherano's long range passing is nowhere near gerrard and alonso doesn't have the pace to start and finish attacks like gerrard does.

to say "that Gerrard is capable of sitting deep and 'dictating play', that is complete bollox" is probably the biggest pile of shit i've ever read in relation to steven gerrard. the lad constantly dictated and won games single handedly for liverpool football club.

as for vieria and keane being able to dictate games, they could in the fact that drove their other players on but they didn't dictate the play in the way gerrard does. keane had scholes beside him to play the ball and veiria had petit/parlour/fabregas. they are completely different central midfielders to steven gerrard. the fact that those two were more defensive midfielders is the obvious difference, but also gerrard has more talent in his feet. keane was more a masherano but added goals, veiria was like gilberto is now. but the biggest equivilant to steven gerrard is paul scholes. both who dictate the game for their clubs.

Clearly you don't understand what dictating a game means - do you?

I'll explain it to you. It means that you set the tempo of play for the side, mainly by your choices of when to play a square pass, when to move it forward, when to slow a passage of play down and when to speed one up. Some players, like Keane and Vieira, were gifted with the ability to make the correct choices most of the time, which therefore allowed their team to attack when it is appropriate to attack, sit back when needed or keep possession when required. You can call it dictating play, but a better description is being tactically aware.

Steven Gerrard, for all his attacking brilliance, has never been able to do this effectively in big games. His instinct to go forward has left us exposed in big games, and his tendency to go for the money pass too often when we just need to keep possession has cost us in big games in the past. Benitez has clearly recognised this as he avoids playing Gerrard in a central midfield pairing in big games.

Don't get me wrong, IMO Gerrard is world class, I wouldn't swap him for any player in the world and I mean that, but let's play to his strengths - that means don't shackle him with any defensive duties and let him go and influence (not dictate) games like he can do so brilliantly.

by **Sabre** » Sun May 11, 2008 1:09 pm

Hmm. Interesting debate the one of dictating the game.

The maths are simple. Gerrard knows to dictate a game, but if you put him in that task, you have to put alonside him someone to cover his back, because at some point he'll go upper on the pitch, at some point he'll try to get past a player, and at some point he'll take a risk.

He takes those risks because he knows he makes damage with those risks of course -- look at goals and assists numbers.

So basically if you play a similar (yet with less quality) player alongside him, like Lampard, you won't be able to control the midfield. If you play a disciplined DCM alonside him, though, it will work. We could see that Alonso and Gerrard made a good couple in the first weeks when we were on top of the table. We could see aswell that Gerrard does a good couple with Mascherano when Alonso was injured. But I'm not sure Gerrard and Lucas would do a good partnership.

Dictating a game is about vision, and Gerrard has vision, and choosing the right option. The problem with Gerrard is that his vision spots both the safe and bold option, and since he has skill he often chooses the bold option. So that's why you'd want to cover his back if you play him CM with two strikers. If you cover his back, don't ask the one who does to make "assists", btw.

So he can dictate the tempo, he knows to dictate the tempo, but it's not the best idea he dictates the tempo: there are other who can do that, and you don't waste Gerrard's world class abilities in the last third of the pitch in tasks than can be done by others.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun May 11, 2008 1:16 pm

Until such time as we have two quality wingers with consistent attacking menace as well as a striker who gets the best out of Torres while chipping in himself, I think Gerrard's best position is in this advanced CAM role. Sure, he can be neutralized in that role by top teams (that's why they're top teams) but that's a tactical challenge that I'm sure Rafa is game for. I think that's why Rafa played Benayoun ahead of Babel at Stamford Bridge, actually. Knowing the Makalele would be shadowing Gerrard, he played the Israeli in hopes that he could exploit the spaces vacated by Makalele when Gerrard dropped deep or peeled out to the flanks. Should our attacking personnel on the flanks and up top be improved, we can revert to 4-4-2 and play Gerrard as one of a central pair in midfield against many teams. But, it's a nice "problem" to have when your best player still manages to score 23 and 21 goals (and counting...) from positions that aren't considered his best.

by **Toffeehater** » Sun May 11, 2008 2:24 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Gerrard scores 23 goals from right midfield and 21 (to date) from the hole and people still maintain he is best in the middle.

Steven Gerrard is best when he is not shckled with the responsibility of playing in the middle of the park and is free to create, suypply and do what ever the fu.ck he likes - FACT

enough said :nod

The only complete player i have seen other then gerrard in the world is michael essein , another fuc.king great player

by **Toffeehater** » Sun May 11, 2008 2:26 pm

bigmick wrote:As already stated Gerrard can play anywhere centrally or on the right side. We can guess although we can't be totally certain that he isn't much to write home about in goal, and we know from experience despite Rafa's occasional attempts to check if its still is the case, that he is awful at left midfield and should never play there.

We know that if we get the captain on the ball in the final third, pretty much against anybody he will score goals, make goals and cause goals. In short, if Gerrard gets on the ball in the final third with any sort of frequency we will win the match against pretty much anybody. Added to that, he is a great tackler as well, has a fantastic engine and just happens to be good in the air too. He doesn't shout and gesticulate enough for some people, nor does he wrestle people to the ground who are trying to argue with referees. Neither of these are faults though IMHO which should diminish the fact that he is our best player and that as Liverpool fans we will remember him as one of our all-time greats.

So where do you play him? Well like all things in football it depends on who is around him. I liked him right side because it's much harder for teams to do a Makeleli on him, but having said that they will set a screener in front so you still have to get the ball to him. Back in the halcyon days of Alonso when he used to be able to get his head up and see a pass without the opposition centre forward taking the ball off him, it worked beautifully. Sissoko broke up the play, gave it to Alonso who pinged it to Gerrard who did something with it. Even with screeners such was the vision and the accuracy of the Spaniards passing that it was very hard to keep Gerrard out of the game. Whichever left winger he played against was nullified, spending more time going backwards than forwards as Gerrard scored 23 goals or whatever it was from the right wing. People wondered if Steve finnan was the most solid right-back we'd ever had, as he barely even saw a left winger all season never mind got close enough to tackle one.

Having being unsuccessful at screening him out though, those pesky coaches began to look further back the food chain at Xabi. If we can stop HIM then we can stop Gerrard they felt. If we can box Alonso in with our most offensive midfielder and our centre forward snapping at his heels, Gerrard won't get the ball, and so it proved. Around this time, people began to really talk about Sissoko's lack of passing acumen. It suddenly wasn't enough to be the most destructive ball-winning midfielder in World football (which he was at the time and probably still is for all I know), he now had to be accurate enough to find Gerrard (which he wasn't) or skilled enough to carry the ball into a position where he could find Gerrard (which he isn't). Suddenly, fans and coaches alike began to notice that Gerrard was prone to "go a wandering" looking for the ball and leaving a huge gap down our right side. It would also have been around this time I would guess where suddenly old age began to catch up with Finnan and he miraculously began to look vulnerable. "He doesn't even get forward and put crosses in like he used to" fans pointed out, or at least they did when they weren't bemoaning the lack of passing ability Sissoko had.

All of which goes to prove that balance in a football team is vital. If one part of the machine starts going awry, others do too. I suppose it also goes to prove that it's all Alonso's fault (just kidding).

Anyway I've kind of gone off the subject so I'll come back to the very good question later.

good post mick

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