Liverpool FC Forum

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:47 am

SouthCoastShankly wrote:I tend to agree that assign arbitrary values to players is pointless. I prefer to group the squad into two categories: Safe and Uncertain -

Safe
Sami Hyypia
Daniel Agger
Steven Gerrard
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Dirk Kuyt
Ryan Babel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Jamie Carragher
Pepe Reina

Uncertain
Steve Finnan - Getting less and less games recently, may try to look for regular footy elsewhere.

John Arne Riise - Openly admitted if he doesn't get regular first team football he'd have to consider his options.

Harry Kewell - What does he provide other than another name on the clubs payroll?

Andriy Voronin - Going by recent comments he obviously doesn't like Liverpool much.

Xabi Alonso - Another one who's form has cost his name on the starting line up frequently. If the Barry reports are to believed I can only see Alonso as the casualty.

Peter Crouch - Clearly isn't a favoured by Rafa for some stupid unknown reason. Has said he'll wait till the summer before deciding on a new contract.

Jermaine Pennant - If Crouch goes I can see Pennant as an additional casualty. Rafa only seems to play Pennant when Crouch plays, obviously for cross delivery. No Crouch = No need for Pennant unless we sign another tall striker??

, agree with that list

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:50 am

Kharhaz wrote:
stapo1000 wrote:just looking at the list of players rafa has bought it seems we haven't bought any players for cheap who have turned into decent first team regulars. None of the youngsters we've bought in the last 4 seasons of been able to progress from the youth/reserve teams and made the grade at senior level. perhaps you'd have to question rafa's ability to spot a bargin. in contrast look at some of wengers buys- van persie for 3.5m, fabregas for 0.5m.

No but as I have mentioned in other posts, rafa does not have the luxury the other top clubs have. He has to get it right first time. Look at cristiano ronaldo, he was given the time to adjust, then look at mark gonzalez, he wasnt. Could he have become something? who knows but you look at ronaldo in his first season and we all laughed ! Amazing what time can do isnt it?

Have to say u're right , rafa does not have time on his side , he needs to get everthing right on first attempt , another player , is sissoko , who's now been brilliant for juventus , also the reason why they are 3rd , he's done well since his move and recaptured his first season form when he was with us , pity i said this was a sale in future that we would regret

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:34 am

SouthCoastShankly wrote:I prefer to group the squad into two categories: Safe and Uncertain -

Safe
Sami Hyypia
Daniel Agger
Steven Gerrard
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Dirk Kuyt
Ryan Babel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Jamie Carragher
Pepe Reina

Alonso and Finnan probably are safe, unless a major bid comes in for Alonso. Finnan will be at worst cover for RB with Arbeloa cover for LB.

Kewell is without a doubt on his way out. What worries me about your list, even if we say for the sake of (avoiding) argument it is 100% correct, is that some of those players are not exactly top notch and I wouldn't be too worried if we sold some of them. We'll keep them because it is not too common to sell players after one season, that could be their saving grace.

And that Rafa bought them young so intends them for the long term, the biggest reservation I have with that approach is because some are young and in the first team squad you have to give them time, but won't know for two or three seasons if they will succeed and we need to be challenging now not hoping signings now will challenge in three or four years time. That is what annoys me about signing lots of players and not many established key players, it's good to look to the future but never sacrifice the present. You wouldn't quit your job now for a job available in three year's time that might be perfect.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:51 pm

Owzat wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:I prefer to group the squad into two categories: Safe and Uncertain -

Safe
Sami Hyypia
Daniel Agger
Steven Gerrard
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Dirk Kuyt
Ryan Babel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Jamie Carragher
Pepe Reina

Alonso and Finnan probably are safe, unless a major bid comes in for Alonso. Finnan will be at worst cover for RB with Arbeloa cover for LB.

Kewell is without a doubt on his way out. What worries me about your list, even if we say for the sake of (avoiding) argument it is 100% correct, is that some of those players are not exactly top notch and I wouldn't be too worried if we sold some of them. We'll keep them because it is not too common to sell players after one season, that could be their saving grace.

And that Rafa bought them young so intends them for the long term, the biggest reservation I have with that approach is because some are young and in the first team squad you have to give them time, but won't know for two or three seasons if they will succeed and we need to be challenging now not hoping signings now will challenge in three or four years time. That is what annoys me about signing lots of players and not many established key players, it's good to look to the future but never sacrifice the present. You wouldn't quit your job now for a job available in three year's time that might be perfect.

Fletcher, O'Shea, Pique, Saha, Brown and Park.

All average players.

you dont need a load of great players, just one great team.

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:23 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Fletcher, O'Shea, Pique, Saha, Brown and Park.

All average players.

you dont need a load of great players, just one great team.

They're nothing special and that's what makes the mancs vulnerable, inclusion of those players and less of the likes of Rooney, Vidic and Ronaldo. Without Vidic they struggled and nearly lost to boro, were pretty ordinary without their stars against Roma and maybe should have got beaten by Arsenal.

However we have to include some players of that calibre, we don't have Nanis and Andersons to bring on and look good. We have Voronin, Pennant and Lucas types. I'm just trying to think of the anti XI, picking the worst players from Liverpool and the mancs to make an XI - without digging into youth team players. Would likely include Itandje, Riise, Pennant, Voronin and probably one or two others. It would be rather biased though if done on a Liverpool board.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:47 pm

Owzat wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Fletcher, O'Shea, Pique, Saha, Brown and Park.

All average players.

you dont need a load of great players, just one great team.

They're nothing special and that's what makes the mancs vulnerable, inclusion of those players and less of the likes of Rooney, Vidic and Ronaldo. Without Vidic they struggled and nearly lost to boro, were pretty ordinary without their stars against Roma and maybe should have got beaten by Arsenal.

However we have to include some players of that calibre, we don't have Nanis and Andersons to bring on and look good. We have Voronin, Pennant and Lucas types. I'm just trying to think of the anti XI, picking the worst players from Liverpool and the mancs to make an XI - without digging into youth team players. Would likely include Itandje, Riise, Pennant, Voronin and probably one or two others. It would be rather biased though if done on a Liverpool board.

I agree. The inclusion of average players into a starting XI only works when:

i) Only 1 or 2 are involved at any one time. More than that and the average quality and ability level drops below what the team can cope with.

ii) A significant number of the remaining players on the team are influential enough to carry the average players.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:56 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Owzat wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:I prefer to group the squad into two categories: Safe and Uncertain -

Safe
Sami Hyypia
Daniel Agger
Steven Gerrard
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Dirk Kuyt
Ryan Babel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Jamie Carragher
Pepe Reina

Alonso and Finnan probably are safe, unless a major bid comes in for Alonso. Finnan will be at worst cover for RB with Arbeloa cover for LB.

Kewell is without a doubt on his way out. What worries me about your list, even if we say for the sake of (avoiding) argument it is 100% correct, is that some of those players are not exactly top notch and I wouldn't be too worried if we sold some of them. We'll keep them because it is not too common to sell players after one season, that could be their saving grace.

And that Rafa bought them young so intends them for the long term, the biggest reservation I have with that approach is because some are young and in the first team squad you have to give them time, but won't know for two or three seasons if they will succeed and we need to be challenging now not hoping signings now will challenge in three or four years time. That is what annoys me about signing lots of players and not many established key players, it's good to look to the future but never sacrifice the present. You wouldn't quit your job now for a job available in three year's time that might be perfect.

Fletcher, O'Shea, Pique, Saha, Brown and Park.

All average players.

you dont need a load of great players, just one great team.

Saha certainly is not average.

Besides, when you have players like Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Ferdinand, Evra and Anderson then you can afford to have "average" players.

As for them being average, don't talk rubbish, they'd all get into most premiership sides.

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:59 am

Saha might be above average but he is injured about as often as kewell

by **Owzat** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:11 am

Fo Dne wrote:Saha certainly is not average.

Besides, when you have players like Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Ferdinand, Evra and Anderson then you can afford to have "average" players.

As for them being average, don't talk rubbish, they'd all get into most premiership sides.

Saha is an odd inclusion in the original post, he is better than the rest

And they are average, being average is why players are in "most premiership sides" and not the top ones. Now YOU are talking rubbish, you're not even getting the meaning of the word you are using ie AVERAGE

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 am

Well define average. Jamie Carragher broke into the side he was probably less than average. Still is in terms of a football at his feet. But he'd walk into any side in the world.

Owzat judging on your theory that average players are in "most premiership sides and not the top ones" then explain to me what the :censored:

are Ferraira, Alex, Ben-Haim, Bridge, Hillario, Mikel, Kalou and Scott Sinclair doing at Chelsea? I wouldn't put any of them in the Liverpool side, come to think of it I doubt any, maybe the exception of Bridge, would get into Newcastle's very average side. Average players exist in every squad, because you can't have 11 superstars.

by **FernandoTorres9** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:36 am

The Truth is he has bought some :censored:

!!! he needs to get more players like Torres and Mascherano

by **Thingy** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:19 am

The current owners if there still in charge id imagine like most we'd get 30 - 35 million off them. Plus money from the Cl final/ winning it, if we do, jumping the gun I know but still. So say what 25 million off that? Thats without offloading players, so we could have 80 million or so, could we not?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:02 am

Thingy wrote:The current owners if there still in charge id imagine like most we'd get 30 - 35 million off them. Plus money from the Cl final/ winning it, if we do, jumping the gun I know but still. So say what 25 million off that? Thats without offloading players, so we could have 80 million or so, could we not?

we could not. sorry mate but 80 million? that's 30 million above a very oppotimistic amount IMO.

European Cup success (if we win it, which I think we will) will be to repay debts, so I can't see that going towards transfers. The yanks I can't see giving Benitez any more money than 30 million because of the debt they owe and as for transfer sales, unless a few big names go, I don't see us raking in 50 million from sales either. I think a few surprises will leave in the summer, from what I've heard and personal feelings, but I don't see us getting anywhere near 80 million mate.

50 tops and for me that's pushing it.

by **Emerald Red** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:15 am

FernandoTorres9 wrote:The Truth is he has bought some !!! he needs to get more players like Torres and Mascherano

And Torres and Mascherano are a prime example of needing to have the cash at hand, big money, and acting quickly. Need I say that this big money for these two players came about through unorthodox circumstances, such as the loan taken out to pay for the club and Torres, and the deal in which Mascherano is to be paid off eventually via Rafa's CL exploits and the sale of Momo. It's easy to say he's bought some sh*t when he's been shopping in Tescos for a few seasons. Give him real money and the means to seal a deal quickly and see who we get and where we end up with under Rafa. Until this happens, I'll never be satisfied. Of course, people will now state about the reputed 150 million debate no doubt.

by **Rush Job** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:22 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Thingy wrote:The current owners if there still in charge id imagine like most we'd get 30 - 35 million off them. Plus money from the Cl final/ winning it, if we do, jumping the gun I know but still. So say what 25 million off that? Thats without offloading players, so we could have 80 million or so, could we not?

we could not. sorry mate but 80 million? that's 30 million above a very oppotimistic amount IMO.

European Cup success (if we win it, which I think we will) will be to repay debts, so I can't see that going towards transfers. The yanks I can't see giving Benitez any more money than 30 million because of the debt they owe and as for transfer sales, unless a few big names go, I don't see us raking in 50 million from sales either. I think a few surprises will leave in the summer, from what I've heard and personal feelings, but I don't see us getting anywhere near 80 million mate.

50 tops and for me that's pushing it.

Your right lad not a chance, i`d say 20 before sales and even that is optermistic when you consider that before we can even get 20mil GG and Hicks will have to both agree to it and they dont look like agreeing on anything in a while.

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