Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:59 pm

I open this thread to discuss the decission to recover the 4-4-2 in this game. I think it's the kind of decission that doesn't match with the theory that Rafa's seen some sort of light.

To be honest, I didn't like the decission. Not because cohesion and all that, but because with 2 strikers, there were too many times 3 men against two in the midfield. The game would be more open with a 4-4-2 and I preffered a game with not many chances, not many attacks and counters.

But Rafa surprised me. It seems that the factor that had more weight in today's starting eleven was the form of players. Crouch was in good form and played well, Torres is on fire, so Rafa seems to adapt his tactic books to this form. I didn't expected such a change today, did you?

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:21 am

I couldn't make out what kind of system we were playing at all TBPH, mate. I know the personnel suggested 4-4-2 but it looked more like another free role for Gerrard after initially lining up on the left. Anyone have a sense of what the formation really was?

by **Reg** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:35 am

The Echo amongst other papers state we started off 4-4-2 then once Babel replaced Crouchie we reverted to 4-5-1 with Stevie moving back into the centre field.

I heard on ESPN that Ferguson was in the stands by the way... (he didnt bother going to the Chelsea game.....).

by **Espionage** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:43 am

I thought that it was a 4-3-2-1 with Gerrard and Crouch just behind Torres for most of it. Gerrard's role was very free though and Crouch often moved up and back. On the whole it was pretty hard to tell what we were doing...

by **Reg** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:50 am

Jeez I dont know the difference between a 4-5-1 and a 4-3-2-1 especially with lads like Kuyt bouncin' around all over the place like the Duracell rabbit!

by **Rush Job** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:13 am

It was deffo a 4 4 2 it wasnt till we went down that Gerrard moved around looking for the ball.
The way i see it i recon Rafa had a fare idea we would concede and need to score plus Crouch played him self into contention. I also think it was Rafa`s way of saying to Crouch your still needed here go out and show em, he has to give him some kind of look in if he wants him to stay and like i say he would have had to come on anyway because we were always likely to let one in. Better 442 to 4231/451 than the other way round and give another goal away late on when we are chasing a goal or two.
So in my opinion its straight forward Rafa new we would let one in.

by **Effes** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:19 am

I think Rafa (as a lot of people) thought Arsenal would manage at least a goal, and that
this formation would give us the chance to create more up front.

Rafa thinks "surprising" the opposition with team selections is more advantageous than it really is.

by **whylongball?** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:26 am

i actually had a feeling that he would play crouch in 442. It was mostly 442 with SG as usual given more licence to roam. I thought however SG would be on the right and Kuyt on the left. Benitez did mention before the game that Crouch played well and we needed to score didn't he?
With Masch and Alonso seating deeper i thought we would be ok, although with some luck.
Anyway, SG used to work like Kuyt, whats wrong with him nowadays? A few times when SG, Masch and Alonso play together, one would expect them to dominate the midfield but its not the case. From what i see SG let Masch do all the dirty work now. :no

The point above is slighly odd topic but i think if SG works harder a bit, 442 like today should be able to cope with anyteam.

by **maguskwt** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:30 am

I'm not gonna say whether rafa got it right or wrong with starting 4-4-2 for this game... because we did win the match so there seems to be credibility of the way he employed the tactics...

However I will say why I didn't like it and why we shouldn't play 4-4-2 with that specific personnel set up. IMO it was really a 4-4-2 with gerrard starting on the left and Crouch and Torres up front.

The first reason is I never liked Crouch/Torres partnership... they like to go for the same ball they like to occupy the same space... that means if one is doing that the other becomes less than effective... for long stretches we rarely see anything from the 2 until Torres goal, which to be fair both got involved. Alos the quick one-twos that torres and gerrard play are absent with torres and crouch.

second reason was specific to yesterday's game. Mascherano and Alonso were put under alot of pressure they were literally pinned back... leaving a vacuum of space in the whole 2/3 area of the field... both crouch and torres were somehow not helping out the link up. So after we went down 1-0, what did Gerrard do? He tried to drift in to provide the much needed link up play. But by doing so we don't have a left winger anymore and Crouch had also become a bystander... he didn't know what to do and was drifting left and center. Stevie's decision was good in spirit but tactically not too good. IMO our formation was very unbalanced during that period before Sami equalised and I thought that we wouldn't make it. Thank God for Sami's equaliser the balanced was restored to the formation. After the break, rafa seemed to have told the team to try to be more disciplined about the formation and we seemed more balanced. We played much much better and with fluency when babel came on and reverted to 4-2-3-1... the reason I like this formation is that everyone has a role in it and no one is a passenger. It is a much more effective formation in the current set up. If we wanna play 4-4-2 and be effective, we gotta play real wingers and move Gerrad back to the middle... we also need a better second striker...

by **JoeTerp** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:08 am

just because rafa diverted from the 4-2-3-1 in a CL game does not mean that he has not "seen the light" (although I am not trying to argue that he has) It was just one game out of the past dozen or so that we went away from it and that isn't even true because were were in it at a crucial part of the game. Wont be able to make a judgment on Rafa's light seeing until we see some more league games. Either it was just a blink of light seeing or the last month and change has been a mirage.

by **maguskwt** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:33 am

it's interesting though (and also abit ironic) that in this case, alot of people who usually criticise rafa for his rotation policy were all for changing the formation to 4-4-2 for this game mainly because of crouch and those who are less critical about rafa's rotation (me included) were against the change and wanted to stick to 4-2-3-1. Also after the game some people who were usually very critical of rafa and his tactics were praising his tactics this game. I for one think that rafa didn't really get his tactics spot in the beginning with this 4-4-2. Later on however, his substitutions and change in tactics were good. This game, I feel that the main bulge of the credit must go to the players, who were magnificent.

by **NiftyNeil** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:17 am

maguskwt wrote:I'm not gonna say whether rafa got it right or wrong with starting 4-4-2 for this game... because we did win the match so there seems to be credibility of the way he employed the tactics...

However I will say why I didn't like it and why we shouldn't play 4-4-2 with that specific personnel set up. IMO it was really a 4-4-2 with gerrard starting on the left and Crouch and Torres up front.

The first reason is I never liked Crouch/Torres partnership... they like to go for the same ball they like to occupy the same space... that means if one is doing that the other becomes less than effective... for long stretches we rarely see anything from the 2 until Torres goal, which to be fair both got involved. Alos the quick one-twos that torres and gerrard play are absent with torres and crouch.

second reason was specific to yesterday's game. Mascherano and Alonso were put under alot of pressure they were literally pinned back... leaving a vacuum of space in the whole 2/3 area of the field... both crouch and torres were somehow not helping out the link up. So after we went down 1-0, what did Gerrard do? He tried to drift in to provide the much needed link up play. But by doing so we don't have a left winger anymore and Crouch had also become a bystander... he didn't know what to do and was drifting left and center. Stevie's decision was good in spirit but tactically not too good. IMO our formation was very unbalanced during that period before Sami equalised and I thought that we wouldn't make it. Thank God for Sami's equaliser the balanced was restored to the formation. After the break, rafa seemed to have told the team to try to be more disciplined about the formation and we seemed more balanced. We played much much better and with fluency when babel came on and reverted to 4-2-3-1... the reason I like this formation is that everyone has a role in it and no one is a passenger. It is a much more effective formation in the current set up. If we wanna play 4-4-2 and be effective, we gotta play real wingers and move Gerrad back to the middle... we also need a better second striker...

Spot on.

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:25 am

I think Rafa expected them to play two strikers and thats why he did the same tbh.
In the first half hour they dominated the midfield due to the extra player and i think it was probably Rafa that told Gerrard to move inside at times to give Alonso and Masher a bit of help.
If we were playing them again i very much doubt that Rafa would play that team again, his nerves must be shot

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:52 am

It was a bad decision, changing what the rested players were used to and putting Gerrard on the left out of the action. Crouch and Torres were barely involved first half, it improved once we scored and second half, but I think the many of the players rested on Saturday took time to adjust back to the formation. Thankfully Adebayor was offside a lot early on, had he timed his runs better we could have been in serious trouble.

by **Yosa** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:10 am

If you play 4-4-2 you need a couple real quality wingers, something we sadly lack.

Don't want to quibble though, it was a great game, and a brilliant result. :buttrock

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