Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:43 am

I've been wanting to start a topic about Reina and my opinion on keepers ever since I saw some people compliment our very own Pepe as the best in the premiership and probably even the world. These compliments don't come uncalled since he did win the last 2 golden gloves. And now since it has been reiterated by GBJH in the other thread where he blames the zonal system I thought it will be a good time to start this topic. Mods, if you think that this topic should be under the main Reina topic, pls feel free to move it there but I would appreciate if it can be bumped up.

As much as I like Reina I do not think that he's the best in the premiership or even the world. Don't get me wrong he's a very good goal keeper one of the best we've had. His reflexes and positioning are superb. He makes use of the penalty box very well and he's also a very good shot stopper. Not to mention his penalty saving prowess. I've never seen any goalkeeper who can save penalties as consistently as him and I'm overjoyed about that.

However, everyone knows that he has a glaring weakness, collecting crosses. I don't know why exactly that is. Maybe he's not tall enough for today's goalkeeper standards. Centre forwards and defenders who attack crosses are getting taller and stronger perhaps. Or his jumping ability is not as good or his hands are not long enough or big enough. Or it can be a combination of the above. All in all, it goes without saying that he really sucks at collecting crosses and picking balls out of the air. And that's probably the reason why Rafa has asked him to punch the balls instead of trying to hold onto them.

Another misgiving I have about him is that as much as he's athletic and quick he doesn't do 'wonder' saves. Most of the goals we concede cannot be faulted against him. It's like he rarely make mistakes (except for crosses) but at the same time he doesn't do many 'wonder' saves during open play. I remember Dudek did alot of these 'wonder' saves when he was at his peak with us. I couldn't pin point the exact matches but he would be at his near post and when the ball was crossed and the attacker appeared at the far post and the ball was certainly going in, he would appear out of nowhere and saved it. These happened alot of times and sometimes it would seem very unbelieveable. One such save was against AC Milan in the CL final that we won. Reina rarely does those kind of 'wonder' saves and I maybe abit biased here but I like keepers who does those kinda saves.

So here are my overall ratings out of a score of 10 for Reina and other keepers just for comparison. I would like to know what all of you think.

Reina 8.0
Dudek (during his peak) 8.5
Dudek (after his peak) 7.0

Rival keepers
Van der Sar 8.5
Petre Cech 9.0

Other Premiership keepers
Shay Given 8.0
Friedel 8.0

England keepers
David James 7.5
Robinson 7.0
Carson 7.0

Other International keepers
Gianluigi Buffon 9.0
Iker Casillas 8.5

Other keepers that I like
Oliver Kahn (at peak) 9.0
Bodo Illgner (at peak) 8.5
Toni Schumacher (at peak) 8.5
Smeichel (at peak) 9.5

I'm sure there are many more great keepers others can throw in. This is just to show you my comparison of what I think about Reina in relation to other keepers. Peter Smeichel IMO was the greatest keeper I've ever seen.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:55 am

Peter Smeichel IMO was the greatest keeper I've ever seen.

Same here. I'm not old enough to go back billions of years to remeber te days of Gordon Banks, and Pat Jennings even. But I'd still say that Peter Schmiecal was the best goalkeeper the planets ever seen. Brilliant keeper.

As for Reina I'd agree ith everything you said about him, maybe not your ratings but definately your reading. I'm not so stupid as to believe that just because he plays for Liverpool hes THE BEST !!!! YAY.

Hes a very good keeper, no more no less. And at times flatters calamity James coming for those crosses.

Like you said though in every other aspect hes good, I particulaly like the sweeper keeper style hes endorsed and is probably one of the best around a that. He has good feet, when the ball is passed back, and I like the early vision from him when either throwing out or kicking the ball. Similar in that sense to the great Dane.

by **RedBlood** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:49 am

i think pepe is a very very good keeper one of the top 5 in the world imo, he has very few weaknesses but it could be argued at times hes not the best when dealing with high balls into his area, maybe this is down to his lack of hieght??
But having said that he is young and is still improving and learning his trade, no player is perfect and i feel he is one of the players to build the team around

by **KennyisGod....still** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:54 am

Reina's definately a great keeper, no arguements there. He's also the record holder for clean sheets in his first 100 (league?) games for us. And that speaks volumes with the zonal markin and our susceptibility at set pieces. Good keepers don't make outstandin flashy saves, their positional sense prevents the need for it most of the time, so I'd applaud the guy there. Gotta agree with ur point about crosses tho, he seems more afraid than Dracula of a cross at times!

Since comin here he's took alot of plaudits and a lot of critiscism for his strengths and weaknesses, but one thing I would say is that durin Big Noses time at OT he maybe had a more consistent defence ahead of him and certainly less talented strikers attackin him. I wouldn swap Pepe for any other keeper at the minute, but I would like a better back up then Itandje, as for all Reina's faults at crosses the fact that our second keeper would seem so unconfident in most aspects of his game scares me more than anythin else keeper wise.

And should Tuesdys game go to penalties, who would u want in goal.........?

by **RedBlood** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:58 am

KennyisGod....still wrote:And should Tuesdys game go to penalties, who would u want in goal.........?

Rick waller :laugh:

by **Owzat** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:13 am

I would have said Reina was arguably the best keeper in the Premiership not so long ago, he's been a bit weak at times at the back though.

Pepe Reina

2005/6

Played : 53
Won : 35
Drawn : 10
Lost : 8
Conceded : 34 (0.64 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 30 (66.04%)

2006/7

Played : 51
Won : 30
Drawn : 9
Lost : 12
Conceded : 36 (0.71 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 26 (56.50%)

2006/7

Played : 51
Won : 30
Drawn : 9
Lost : 12
Conceded : 36 (0.71 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 26 (50.98%)

2007/8

Played : 44
Won : 24
Drawn : 12
Lost : 6
Conceded : 31 (0.70 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 21 (47.73%)

Fair enough that's better than Dudek who conceded about a goal a game under Rafa and kept 33.96% clean sheets in 53 games. But his record is slipping, although 2005/6 was our best season for clean sheets and a tight defence.

by **Seano Kop** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:56 am

No one goes past Reina in goal celebrations eother. You just can't beat him!

by **Leonmc0708** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:28 am

maguskwt wrote:Another misgiving I have about him is that as much as he's athletic and quick he doesn't do 'wonder' saves.

You are joking right ?

by **JC_81** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:28 am

I think Reina is as good a keeper as there is around at the moment. On current form probably David James is playing best in the Premiership, but I think Cech and Van der Sar are just as prone to a mistake as Reina is. Both are probably better shot stoppers than Reina, but Reina's decision making in terms of coming off his line and snuffing out danger is much better than either Cech or Van der Sar.

Overall I think James is the form keeper in the Premiership at the moment, but has not been consistent over several seasons. Reina, Cech and Van der Sar are difficult to separate for me, but Cech and Reina certainly have age on their side and will get better.

It's difficult to say who the best keeper in the world is, and I think that there is actually a lack of world class keepers at this particular time. 10 years ago I could have named several, but nowadays I'd struggle to name half a dozen genuinely world class keepers, but Reina would certainly be one of them for me.

by **crazyhorse** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:09 pm

I hate to say it, but to my mind the best keeper in the PL is the lad playing for Sunderland, Gordon is it?

.

As for the best ever - For me Shilton, no contest.

by **JC_81** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:15 pm

crazyhorse wrote:I hate to say it, but to my mind the best keeper in the PL is the lad playing for Sunderland, Gordon is it? .

As for the best ever - For me Shilton, no contest.

Gordon's a good keeper alright mate. Was excellent for Hearts and Scotland before Keane signed him.

However I don't think it's done his confidence any good playing for them and getting a few knocked past him every week due to having a poor defence. His form has suffered and he's now in real danger of losing his Scotland place to McGregor at Rangers, who is having a fantastic season.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:36 pm

I'm not worried about Pepe at all, TBPH. Whether he's the best in the Prem or the World is neither here nor there to me--he's the best keeper we have had in some time (much, much better than Dudek, IMO) and he suits our system perfectly. In terms of the weaknesses highlighted, I disagree about the "wonder saves" bit. The work he did against Rooney and Ronaldo at Old Trafford was fantastic. Everyone seemed to dismiss those stops as the shooter's fault but Pepe charged out, made himself big and nullified the threat. If "wonder saves" refer more to diving at full stretch to make a fingertip save I refer to his save on Van Persie the other night. He's definitely got highlight reel saves in his locker but rarely needs them because his positioning is so spot on and because he makes a lot of saves look easier than they are.

The biggest concern is crosses. IMO, he's a bit like Mascherano in this regard: he's aggressive, confident and wants to come for every ball. As such, we've seen a few instances where he's gotten caught out by not arriving in time or by misjudging the flight of the ball and flapping. When this happens, we sometimes (not always) concede a weak goal and Reina looks a bit of a liability. This was the case at Old Trafford. I think since that game he's been more hesitant to come off his line for crosses in a crowded box. Whether Rafa's had a word or he's a bit gun-shy himself is unclear but I think we would have seen him definitely coming for the ball that led to Bendtner's goal yesterday had it not been for Old Trafford.

Bottom line, for me: Reina has many, many wonderful attributes that elevate our game considerably (his quickness to sweep up behind the back four, his distribution, his penalty stopping, his ability to keep hold of dangerous shots, his vocalness etc.) and I still think he's a fantastic keeper. Like all keepers, he has a couple of weaknesses that have recently been exposed but that doesn't mean he's not top quality. I leave it to others to decide if he's the absolute best or not--wherever he ranks, I wouldn't trade him for anyone in the world at the moment.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:22 pm

Owzat wrote:I would have said Reina was arguably the best keeper in the Premiership not so long ago, he's been a bit weak at times at the back though.

Pepe Reina

2005/6

Played : 53
Won : 35
Drawn : 10
Lost : 8
Conceded : 34 (0.64 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 30 (66.04%)

2006/7

Played : 51
Won : 30
Drawn : 9
Lost : 12
Conceded : 36 (0.71 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 26 (56.50%)

2006/7

Played : 51
Won : 30
Drawn : 9
Lost : 12
Conceded : 36 (0.71 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 26 (50.98%)

2007/8

Played : 44
Won : 24
Drawn : 12
Lost : 6
Conceded : 31 (0.70 goal/game)
Clean Sheets : 21 (47.73%)

Fair enough that's better than Dudek who conceded about a goal a game under Rafa and kept 33.96% clean sheets in 53 games. But his record is slipping, although 2005/6 was our best season for clean sheets and a tight defence.

those stats don't really tell the ability of the keeper alone do they? It tells the story of the keeper + the defense as a collective unit... I'm afraid if we wanna isolate the keeper's quality, we just have to observe him qualitatively...

by **maguskwt** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:24 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
maguskwt wrote:Another misgiving I have about him is that as much as he's athletic and quick he doesn't do 'wonder' saves.

You are joking right ?

... not really... I like "wonder saves"...

by **maguskwt** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:37 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I'm not worried about Pepe at all, TBPH. Whether he's the best in the Prem or the World is neither here nor there to me--he's the best keeper we have had in some time (much, much better than Dudek, IMO) and he suits our system perfectly. In terms of the weaknesses highlighted, I disagree about the "wonder saves" bit. The work he did against Rooney and Ronaldo at Old Trafford was fantastic. Everyone seemed to dismiss those stops as the shooter's fault but Pepe charged out, made himself big and nullified the threat. If "wonder saves" refer more to diving at full stretch to make a fingertip save I refer to his save on Van Persie the other night. He's definitely got highlight reel saves in his locker but rarely needs them because his positioning is so spot on and because he makes a lot of saves look easier than they are.

That's a fair enough assessment Bob. I do agree that his positioning is very good and that may just be the reason we don't often see spectacular saves from him. However, when I said "wonder saves" it doesn't actually have to be fingertip diving saves. It means saving a ball which is absolute certain to go in and you wouldn't even think about blaming the keeper if it had gone in. Some saves that Dudek did when he was at his peak under Houllier comes to mind. Those were just unbelieveable sometimes. I do agree that under Rafa Dudek became very very poor and even his achievement at the CL final was somewhat of a miracle. But at his peak I liked his athleticism, quickness, and his overall game alot and thinks that he was a slightly more complete keeper than Reina is now. Of course Reina is only 25 years old and can become alot better than Dudek was. I'm not really worried about Reina either but I just think that he's not really the best in the premiership at the moment as alot of you think.

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