Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:52 am

john craig wrote:He is now the playmaker of the team and one of the main goalscorers playing in a more advanced role. I genuinely think it's harder for him to influence those around him where he has been deployed recently, especially against stronger sides when he won't see that much of the ball.

I think that's a fair point.

I think one of the reasons that Gerrard went "missing" yesterday is because he was playing in a role that he is not suitable to occupying against top quality opposition. Playing him in the "hole" at Anfield against weak opposition like Reading and Newcastle is one thing, but against United and AC Milan in a European cup final is another matter.

by **El Torres 9** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:52 am

Look at what Steven Gerrard has done for Liverpool over the last 4 years
Olympiakos?
Istanbul?
West Ham?
And everything has been going fine up until we played Man Utd
Steven Gerrard should not be stripped of his captaincy
End Of.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:03 am

If it hadn't been for Gerrard over the past few years, we'd probably be a lot worse off than we are now. He may not be the most aggressive captain or the one who protests the most, but he's our best player by a mile, and he's dragged us out the sh!t many a time in the past. However, our problems right now are nothing to do with the captaincy.

by **MR C** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:35 pm

steven gerard is one of my all time liverpool players....has not always been that way.
over the years he has banished many doubts i have had,except one.

i think we need an organizer as captain,somebody who probably is as tactically aware as benitez...actually more tactically aware.sometimes when gerard loses the ball he makes no attempt to win it back.when a captain does this at a big club it always looks odd.

after games gerard always seems to be bang on the money about how the game went,thus telling me there is some tactical thinking going on in his head.this has me wondering why we never see him telling people what to do when things are not going well if he was aware of it.

another thing that bothers me is some players quite clearly get blanked when they score, a bit like drogba does at chelsea.gerard seems to play a key part in this nonsense. when torres 1st went to liverpool nobody celebrated with him, but because he is making a name for himself without these sad losers suddenly everybody is patting him on the back when he scores...which is a good thing.

from what i'm seeing from the body language between liverpool players,there seem to be no joy playing for each other,the manager and more importantly the crowd. when a goal is scored have a look at how long that player engages with the crowd before he turns away....so much for singing you'll never walk alone. we need a charismatic manager or captain that joins everybody together,because something just don't look or seems right to me.

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:52 am

john craig wrote:You can't blame Gerrard for Mascherano's red card, only Mascherano is to blame. However, Gerrard showed no leadership yesterday when we needed him most. He didn't try to speak to Bennet after the Mascherano red card, even at half time when the other players were - that is part of the captain's job and he didn't do it. He didn't do very much in the game to be honest.

I know Gerrard is predominantly an attacking rather than a defensive player these days, but in all honesty can any of you remember the last time he put in a crunching tackle to win the ball? A few years ago he was doing it all the time. I'm not saying he has to do this to be a good captain, but his style of play has so dramatically changed over the last few years that he is no longer the tigerish midfield battler who would win the ball for us and start attacks. He is now the playmaker of the team and one of the main goalscorers playing in a more advanced role. I genuinely think it's harder for him to influence those around him where he has been deployed recently, especially against stronger sides when he won't see that much of the ball.

Can we do anything about it though? I don't think so. It would not sit well with Gerrard to take the captaincy off him and to be honest I don't think we have any better candidates. Forget Carra - to be honest he needs to concentrate on his own form, because he's not been playing as well this season as he did last imo, he has not been as consistent.

Sense at last.... Good post John....

I've missed the "the tigerish midfielder" we used to have who in my view was the best box-to-box midfielder in the world at that time. He's still a massive player but his game HAS changed as you pointed out and I for one, would like to know why.

Has he taken it upon himself or has he been remade into the new role?

Agree with you that in his current position, it's harder (but not impossible) for him to influence those around him.

Over the years, I think that you'll find that the best captains in the world are made up of central defenders and central midfielders for fairly simple reasons. These are the positions that enable you to "see" the whole the game and/or have the opportunity to most influence the game. Seldom do wide players or attackers make good captains simply because they don't "see" or influence the game's flow that much until it's time to score that is..... But without the central midfielders, they won't have as many opportunities to score.

So, as you say, in the advanced role that he's playing these days, I'd say he's less effective as a captain.

But it's a moot point anyway.... IMO he's still the best player we have and has led by example numerous times. He maybe not be as vocal as a Souey or Terry or Keane... but their way of captaining the side is not the only way.... There are others who happen to be more subtle.... Like Stevie.

His style may not be to everyone's liking but he's still the most deserving of the armband. What are we gonna do anyway? Remove the captaincy from him? He'll never be the same player again....

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:23 am

Con I think he's been forced to play higher up the pitch because he's the only midfielder we have who can. Mascheranho, Lucas and Alonso are all great players at what they do, but aren't going to infulance a game high up the field because it's not naturally in their game, whereas Gerrard can and has done. I think also he's been told to calm down over the years because when he first broke into the side he was a total headcase to say the least. He's been sent off a few times in his career and on other occasions he's been lucky not to be shown red. So I think that "tigerish" attitude you was talking about has not been taken away but just told to stay in it's cage a little more than it used to. The box-to-box midfielder he was hasn't been there for some time consistantly. He's either been always sticking deep because Benitez likes the two holding central midfielders or he's been to far up field to track back because Benitez has pushed him further forward or out to the right wing. I think Gerrard has proven that he is the greatest complete player in the world on many occasions and his captaincy shouldn't be in question.

Hyypia for me has been one of our greatest captains but was never all that vocal, instead he let Carra on the pitch and Tommo/Sammy Lee off the pitch do all his shouting. He just went about his buisness and did a great job. Like Gerrard has done and will continue to do in the future.

I still can't see why people whinge about his captaincy then the same people come out and whinge again when Gerrard does have a moan for the position we're in not being good enough. When he isn't vocal and trying to gee the lads up he's criticised, when he openly admits that the side's performance isn't good enough and tells them to give it their all for the remaining of the season he still gets criticised. Fantastic player and a great captain.

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:20 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I think also he's been told to calm down over the years because when he first broke into the side he was a total headcase to say the least. He's been sent off a few times in his career and on other occasions he's been lucky not to be shown red. So I think that "tigerish" attitude you was talking about has not been taken away but just told to stay in it's cage a little more than it used to. The box-to-box midfielder he was hasn't been there for some time consistantly. He's either been always sticking deep because Benitez likes the two holding central midfielders or he's been to far up field to track back because Benitez has pushed him further forward or out to the right wing. I think Gerrard has proven that he is the greatest complete player in the world on many occasions and his captaincy shouldn't be in question.

I still can't see why people whinge about his captaincy then the same people come out and whinge again when Gerrard does have a moan for the position we're in not being good enough. When he isn't vocal and trying to gee the lads up he's criticised, when he openly admits that the side's performance isn't good enough and tells them to give it their all for the remaining of the season he still gets criticised. Fantastic player and a great captain.

Agreed on the 1st point John. I think that he has been told to tone down and play more with his head than his heart, which is well required imo. In 9 out of 10 cases, this makes sense... but for some players, this has the possibility of blunting their natural game if taken to extremes. Gerrard would appear to be one of those.... he should be a tempered blade to take the brittle edge out of his game... but the tempering needed to be done with care as if done wrongly, the blade ends up ductile and loses all of it's toughness along with the brittleness. It has been mentioned on these boards a fair few times that Gerrard has a need to be treated with kid gloves due to his fragile personality. I don't know if this is true, but i would say that maybe theres a slight element of truth to that.

As for the 2nd point, to some people, the fact that he almost left us twice in consecutive seasons is a basis to doubt his loyalty. This along with his sulky/mardy demeanor has let to the conclusion that he may be an egotist and is only concerned with himself. The serialisation and contents of his autobiography didn't help either as it seemed to highlight his friendship with the "enemy"... References to JT and all of that. I seem to recall that he was even called "a traitor waiting to happen"... that particular phrase stuck in my mind as I recall my jaw hitting the ground with a resounding thud... such was my incredulity.

Obviously I disagree with that as he's still here and he's a red from birth and everything good he's ever done on a pitch has been in our red shirt. Even in our darkest times, he and Carra were the ones who you could always count on to give 100%.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:51 pm

I was fuming with anger when I heard Gerrard was off to Chelsea. But I could also see where he was coming from. He wanted to fulfill ambitions that he obviously didn't feel he could fulfill at Anfield. Fortunately though he stayed, for whatever reasons, he stayed and I don't think he regrets it. I think he's just another player who this nation like to criticise.

Anybody who does well in this nation takes criticism. Steve Davis at snooker was to slow. George Best was an alky. Gazza was an alky. Gerrard's disloyal and moody. We as a nation like to criticise our heroes.

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:45 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I was fuming with anger when I heard Gerrard was off to Chelsea. But I could also see where he was coming from. He wanted to fulfill ambitions that he obviously didn't feel he could fulfill at Anfield. Fortunately though he stayed, for whatever reasons, he stayed and I don't think he regrets it. I think he's just another player who this nation like to criticise.

Anybody who does well in this nation takes criticism. Steve Davis at snooker was to slow. George Best was an alky. Gazza was an alky. Gerrard's disloyal and moody. We as a nation like to criticise our heroes.

I was watching Football Focus just now and Steve McMahon reckons that Stevie is disillusioned with how things are going at the cub and with Rafa's style of play and management. I don't know where he's getting the info from but he reckons that Stevie could well be on his way at the end of the season.

In all honesty, I don't know how I'd feel if he did..... Disappointment for sure and definitely anger but would I be able to understand?

This is a guy who's been a significant part of every LFC team that has won all the titles in the cabinet in recent years. UEFA Cup, European Cup, League Cup, FA Cup, Super Cup, Charity Shield... you name it.... the only 2 club titles missing are the League proper and the World Club Championship. He's spent years here and has helped us win 'em all. He's coming to the peak of his career... he's got perhaps another 4 years max, when he'll be still at the top of his game.... Can I really hold it against him if he feels that he has to move on to capture the holy grail of club football?

Tough call and I honestly donno.... but deep down, I guess I can understand it. But if it did happen and the reason was the Gaffer.... I'll never be able to forgive Rafa.

Fact of the matter is... for me, if the choice was Rafa or Stevie... I'd pick the Captain EVERY single time as I believe the club comes first.... and in my heart, Stevie is better for the club than Rafa.

by **Yari7** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:13 pm

I think there could ba a possibility Gerrard could go at the end of the season. I think he may feel that the Liverpool team is not good enough for him to acheive the one honour that has eluded him. But then again, that is something which could drive Stevie to stay at the club.

Also, he seems to enjoy playing with Torres.

I think how we do in Europe this season could determine if Stevie stays or not.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:33 pm

If Gerrard leaves, then I think the league is a further twenty years away.

I think McMahon has a point. I don't think he quite understands where he fits in with Benitez. Whenever a player is shifted out of position it seems to be Gerrard or Carragher and no matter how well these two play they never get praise from Benitez. But Benitez' signings are constantly praised by the manager and/or played in their favoured positions. Dirk Kuyt has been praised publically by Benitez on a few occasions this season, Torres has had praised heeped on him by Benitez and even Mascheranho has been told publically that he is worth every penny of the 18 million we spent. Benitez' words were to this affect after Mascheranho's goal against Reading "Javier's goal today proved that he was worth the money we spent on him. He and Xabi are building up a good relationship in midfield. Javier is a great player for this club"

It's first name terms for the lads from abroad, Mascheranho even calls Benitez, Rafa but for the likes of Gerrard, Carra and Crouch it's much more formal with surnames. I think this sinks down onto the players and they must feel it. This is where I beleive Gerrard to be disallousioned at times with life under Benitez.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:43 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If Gerrard leaves, then I think the league is a further twenty years away.

I think McMahon has a point. I don't think he quite understands where he fits in with Benitez. Whenever a player is shifted out of position it seems to be Gerrard or Carragher and no matter how well these two play they never get praise from Benitez. But Benitez' signings are constantly praised by the manager and/or played in their favoured positions. Dirk Kuyt has been praised publically by Benitez on a few occasions this season, Torres has had praised heeped on him by Benitez and even Mascheranho has been told publically that he is worth every penny of the 18 million we spent. Benitez' words were to this affect after Mascheranho's goal against Reading "Javier's goal today proved that he was worth the money we spent on him. He and Xabi are building up a good relationship in midfield. Javier is a great player for this club"

It's first name terms for the lads from abroad, Mascheranho even calls Benitez, Rafa but for the likes of Gerrard, Carra and Crouch it's much more formal with surnames. I think this sinks down onto the players and they must feel it. This is where I beleive Gerrard to be disallousioned at times with life under Benitez.

you're right. especially about the bit where they are often shifted.
they must be feeling rather sh!ty being pushed around.
but where does the info that some players call RB by first name come from?

by **Yari7** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:48 pm

Also, you never heard Gerrard give Rafael Benetiz his backing when Rafa was under fire this year. If you remember when Steve McClaren was under fire as England Boss, Gerrard openly came out and gave his backing to McClaren saying that the lads thin he is the right man for the job and they are 100% behind him.

Maybe Gerrard doesn't like playing for Rafa.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:07 pm

ConnO'var wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I was fuming with anger when I heard Gerrard was off to Chelsea. But I could also see where he was coming from. He wanted to fulfill ambitions that he obviously didn't feel he could fulfill at Anfield. Fortunately though he stayed, for whatever reasons, he stayed and I don't think he regrets it. I think he's just another player who this nation like to criticise.

Anybody who does well in this nation takes criticism. Steve Davis at snooker was to slow. George Best was an alky. Gazza was an alky. Gerrard's disloyal and moody. We as a nation like to criticise our heroes.

I was watching Football Focus just now and Steve McMahon reckons that Stevie is disillusioned with how things are going at the cub and with Rafa's style of play and management. I don't know where he's getting the info from but he reckons that Stevie could well be on his way at the end of the season.

In all honesty, I don't know how I'd feel if he did..... Disappointment for sure and definitely anger but would I be able to understand?

This is a guy who's been a significant part of every LFC team that has won all the titles in the cabinet in recent years. UEFA Cup, European Cup, League Cup, FA Cup, Super Cup, Charity Shield... you name it.... the only 2 club titles missing are the League proper and the World Club Championship. He's spent years here and has helped us win 'em all. He's coming to the peak of his career... he's got perhaps another 4 years max, when he'll be still at the top of his game.... Can I really hold it against him if he feels that he has to move on to capture the holy grail of club football?

Tough call and I honestly donno.... but deep down, I guess I can understand it. But if it did happen and the reason was the Gaffer.... I'll never be able to forgive Rafa.

Fact of the matter is... for me, if the choice was Rafa or Stevie... I'd pick the Captain EVERY single time as I believe the club comes first.... and in my heart, Stevie is better for the club than Rafa.

If Stevie left in order to fulfill a personal ambition of winning the title I'd absolutely hold it against him because it would mean that he's off to one of our main rivals. How is that different than a glory-hunting fan who decides to hop on the Man U or Chelsea bandwagon rather than stick with his club through thick and thin?

If he left to play abroad, like Owen did, I might get over it but if he stayed in the Prem I'd be livid. :no

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:16 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If Gerrard leaves, then I think the league is a further twenty years away.

I think McMahon has a point. I don't think he quite understands where he fits in with Benitez. Whenever a player is shifted out of position it seems to be Gerrard or Carragher and no matter how well these two play they never get praise from Benitez. But Benitez' signings are constantly praised by the manager and/or played in their favoured positions. Dirk Kuyt has been praised publically by Benitez on a few occasions this season, Torres has had praised heeped on him by Benitez and even Mascheranho has been told publically that he is worth every penny of the 18 million we spent. Benitez' words were to this affect after Mascheranho's goal against Reading "Javier's goal today proved that he was worth the money we spent on him. He and Xabi are building up a good relationship in midfield. Javier is a great player for this club"

It's first name terms for the lads from abroad, Mascheranho even calls Benitez, Rafa but for the likes of Gerrard, Carra and Crouch it's much more formal with surnames. I think this sinks down onto the players and they must feel it. This is where I beleive Gerrard to be disallousioned at times with life under Benitez.

I disagree with this. First, Benitez tends to praise players who are going through a rough patch or who he'd like to see build on their current form. It's not about only praising his own signings, as he's had a lot of praise for the likes of Kewell, Finnan, Sami etc. as well.

As for Gerrard and Carra, they get asked to play out of position on occasion because they have the quality, versatility and mentality to do so. They always return to their best positions eventually, though, because Benitez recognizes how important they are to the team in those positions. But, he does also ask others to play out of position too: Kuyt, Babel, Benayoun, Garcia, etc. He does not give the kid glove treatment to his own signings, in other words.

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