Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:26 am

Definitely how good you are shouldn't mean you have to be captain.

What are captain's functions?

He's the one that must talk and is allowed to talk to the ref.

He's the one that must tell a word to a player that isn't in a good patch

Apparently in Liverpool (not other clubs) they're also the ones that make sure that the incoming guys feel comfortably.

All this I've learned from interviews of players and posts I read here. I'd like to know the reasons why Gerrard is not the correct man for these tasks. The newcomers seem to adapt right (Torres, Mascherano) and they praise the existing captains.

by **Dalglish** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:39 am

Hi Sabre,

Captaincy is essentially about leadership both on and off the pitch.

Although I don't personally know Steven Gerard I do know people who do and the abiding answer I get to the question What is he really like is that he is incredibly and painfully shy.

It almost feels disloyal to question such a fantastic players ability to lead the team but question it I do. I just believe Carragher epitomises the role of captain and in the pressure pot situations he would handle them better. Where was Gerard today when Masca was so obviously out of control from the first booking till his inevitable sending off ? Carra would have stepped in sooner and had a word.

by **Sabre** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:43 am

Thanks for the insight Dalglish.

I Didn't know the shyness levels were incredible, I don't have that kind of insight from here. If that's the case it's very true shyness is not a good attribute to have for leadership.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:44 am

A man once said their are 11 captains in every football side, an armband doesn't stop Carra stepping in to calm Mascheranho down does it? Mascheranho should know better anyway, but just because Gerrard's the skipper doesn't stop others doing the job...including Benitez, who could easily of taken Mascheranho to one side prior to the sending off and told him to calm down.

Yes Gerrard could of done it, but so could everyone else.

by **stmichael** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:09 am

Sabre wrote:Definitely how good you are shouldn't mean you have to be captain.

What are captain's functions?

He's the one that must talk and is allowed to talk to the ref.

He's the one that must tell a word to a player that isn't in a good patch

Apparently in Liverpool (not other clubs) they're also the ones that make sure that the incoming guys feel comfortably.

All this I've learned from interviews of players and posts I read here. I'd like to know the reasons why Gerrard is not the correct man for these tasks. The newcomers seem to adapt right (Torres, Mascherano) and they praise the existing captains.

There are different ways to captain a side. There are born leaders who drag there players performances up from the mire (like for example Keane) and then there are players who try to lead by example (for example Beckham or Owen). I think it is blatantly obvious that Gerrard falls under the latter. That being said, I don't think that is enough for the current team/squad.

Gerrard is an outstanding player, and he does it in the big games too at times. But he doesn't lead or guide the players like a captain should. Don't get me wrong, he is a :censored:

unbelievable player on the pitch most of the time, but he doesn't drag the players up like a captain should.

Today when Masch needed a guiding word in his ear, like a captain should when he was shouting his mouth off, he wasn't spoken to. It was obvious to quite a few that it was only a matter of time that he would walk if he carried on but Gerrard never went over and said the obvious to him to calm him down. Now I am not saying Masch did nothing wrong coz he shouldn't have did what he did (although saying 'what is happening, what is happening' is hardly a bookable offence) but he was fired up like we have been asking for from our players in this type of fixture and he just needed to be calmed down to prevent the inevitable.

I love Gerrard and want him in our starting 11 for a long time to come, but at half time when players where remostating with the ref (Alonso, Torres, Reina, etc) Gerrard just walked past. Where was our captain standing up to for our players?

by **Simari** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:29 am

Masch was at boiling point and it was very easy for the viewers to see that (thanks to *un-biased* tv coverage). Some may say that the captain should have intervened earlier.

In my view, there is no better learning experience than what Masch went through. You almost have to suffer the consequences to learn anything about being mentally strong when playing the big games (especially an away game at a big 4).

Hopefully, we all learn something from the big mistakes we make in everyday life. Footballers are no different - if they truely want to etch their name in history. The resilient ones will rise to the top and we can only hope that Masch will be one of them

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:36 am

stmichael wrote:
Sabre wrote:Definitely how good you are shouldn't mean you have to be captain.

What are captain's functions?

He's the one that must talk and is allowed to talk to the ref.

He's the one that must tell a word to a player that isn't in a good patch

Apparently in Liverpool (not other clubs) they're also the ones that make sure that the incoming guys feel comfortably.

All this I've learned from interviews of players and posts I read here. I'd like to know the reasons why Gerrard is not the correct man for these tasks. The newcomers seem to adapt right (Torres, Mascherano) and they praise the existing captains.

There are different ways to captain a side. There are born leaders who drag there players performances up from the mire (like for example Keane) and then there are players who try to lead by example (for example Beckham or Owen). I think it is blatantly obvious that Gerrard falls under the latter. That being said, I don't think that is enough for the current team/squad.

Gerrard is an outstanding player, and he does it in the big games too at times. But he doesn't lead or guide the players like a captain should. Don't get me wrong, he is a unbelievable player on the pitch most of the time, but he doesn't drag the players up like a captain should.

Today when Masch needed a guiding word in his ear, like a captain should when he was shouting his mouth off, he wasn't spoken to. It was obvious to quite a few that it was only a matter of time that he would walk if he carried on but Gerrard never went over and said the obvious to him to calm him down. Now I am not saying Masch did nothing wrong coz he shouldn't have did what he did (although saying 'what is happening, what is happening' is hardly a bookable offence) but he was fired up like we have been asking for from our players in this type of fixture and he just needed to be calmed down to prevent the inevitable.

I love Gerrard and want him in our starting 11 for a long time to come, but at half time when players where remostating with the ref (Alonso, Torres, Reina, etc) Gerrard just walked past. Where was our captain standing up to for our players?

Well, to be fair, Carragher--most people's preferred replacement captain--didn't say anything to Masch either did he? Everybody seems to want to point the finger elsewhere on this issue. It's all Bennett's fault or it's all Gerrard's fault or why didn't Rafa sub him after the first booking (check the match thread, it's there!

)? Bottom line, at the end of the day, it's on Mascherano to keep his head. And, it's not like he hasn't been flirting with disaster before this, as the Alliadiere incident demonstrates. I'm not taking a thing away from the lad as a footballer--he's absolutely top drawer--but what he did today was dumb and there's no excuse for it. I just hope no one is making excuses for him behind closed doors because he needs to learn from this mistake because it's the one weakness I can see in his game at the moment.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:24 am

bob people are making excuses because Mascheranho seems to be above criticism. He seemed intent to see how far he could push Bennett and then when he finally got sent off he went off on one. Bennett's very quick with the cards, we all know that and I classed him before, during and now after the game as the worst ref in the prem, but Mascheranho still has to take blame for what he did.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:16 am

Bad Bob wrote:Well, to be fair, Carragher--most people's preferred replacement captain--didn't say anything to Masch either did he? Everybody seems to want to point the finger elsewhere on this issue. It's all Bennett's fault or it's all Gerrard's fault or why didn't Rafa sub him after the first booking (check the match thread, it's there! )? Bottom line, at the end of the day, it's on Mascherano to keep his head. And, it's not like he hasn't been flirting with disaster before this, as the Alliadiere incident demonstrates. I'm not taking a thing away from the lad as a footballer--he's absolutely top drawer--but what he did today was dumb and there's no excuse for it. I just hope no one is making excuses for him behind closed doors because he needs to learn from this mistake because it's the one weakness I can see in his game at the moment.

yes... some time back in the masch thread, when everyone was praising his fired-up attitude I said that it was good but he worries me because he likes to thrash talk the ref a bit too much and he was lucky he wasn't being punished for it so far... it is just unfortunate that when he was punished for it, it is against the mancs. He should've known that benett was a ref who had a rock up in the :censored:

when his first yellow card was not really for the foul but for masch waving him off and turning away if i'm not mistaking

having said that I was a bit disappointed by Gerrard's performance as captain that game... he was no where to be found near the incident... mascherano walked up to the referee from halfway across the field and he should've seen there was some trouble brewing... if you ask me he should've been already there asking the ref when he booked torres so unfairly... only when masch exploded gerrard talked to masch... but by then it is too late... but it was not only him of course... somehow alonso had the mind to pull back masch for awhile but then let him go... carra while always questioning refs in previous games was nowhere to be found either... the team just didn't stick together that game...

PS. mascherano should learn from Hyppia how to remonstrate with the ref... always smiling, always shaking his head in disbelief and letting the ref know that it was a bad decision.. but never in a threatening way

by **red_guy** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:57 am

maguskwt wrote:carra while always questioning refs in previous games was nowhere to be found either... the team just didn't stick together that game...

The team just didn't stick everytime they're against ManUre. ManUrephobia or just lack of self esteem and belief? :down:

by **Toffeehater** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:24 am

Sabre wrote:
Ciggy wrote:We shall just have to enjoy him while we still have him im afraid because hes said himself when real come knocking u dont turn them down Ill be gutted if he goes but I prefer him abroad than have to face him 2 maybe 3 times a year in the prem, and all this talk about alonso being just as good etc is this getting us used to him not being there any more is that why raffa played him outwide against bolton to get alonso fitted in his spot? Maybe hell stay but Im 99% sure he will go to RM and hell say I gave it one more go and it didnt work out etc

Heh, next time we're worried about Gerrard's future, we must remember this post. Gerrard stayed.

St Michael, to be honest I don't think it's fair to bump this topic after this game and in a moment in which the defeat still irks us hardly.

Firstly because Gerrard's been playing well and he's been praised this weeks, it's not very fair to question his captaincy as a whole because of a game.

I've read a couple of posts in the match thread that wound me up aswell questioning his attitude. Complicated to play against 11 men, a good team. He's been put alongside Alonso in a second line of four midfielders and on front of him he had a team that presses better, much better than Arsenal do. Tough game, and he wasn't at his best, but definitely unfair to give too much stick to the lad.

We can discuss of course if he should have approached Mascherano or not, but not his captaincy IMHO. Torres PRECISELY has spoken repeteadly both in English and Spanish about how much he respects Gerrard and is respected. How good example is for everybody. Torres has said to be humbled by this two captains we have, and do not forget, he was the captain in a pretty important Spanish club.

I really hope Steve continues being our captain. I don't even consider not to be. Have you ever known in the history of the club a captain that has been demoted from that role after many years while still in the verge of his career? It's not a very common thing to see IMHO.

SPOT ON sabre .

We also have to remmeber , no captain , can pull us out of countless ditches that stevie G has done , olympiakos , Ac milan in the final of the champions league , the west ham final , some prem games this season , its unfair like sabre said to judge him just on 1 bad game he has had this season . Stevie must be feeling the worst of the lot after the game . This match means alot to him and so it does to JC .

by **RedBlood** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:51 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:A man once said their are 11 captains in every football side, an armband doesn't stop Carra stepping in to calm Mascheranho down does it? Mascheranho should know better anyway, but just because Gerrard's the skipper doesn't stop others doing the job...including Benitez, who could easily of taken Mascheranho to one side prior to the sending off and told him to calm down.

Yes Gerrard could of done it, but so could everyone else.

spot on mate

mascherano is a grown man and so is every player on that pitch every man is responsible for his own actions

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:36 am

stmichael wrote:
Sabre wrote:Definitely how good you are shouldn't mean you have to be captain.

What are captain's functions?

He's the one that must talk and is allowed to talk to the ref.

He's the one that must tell a word to a player that isn't in a good patch

Apparently in Liverpool (not other clubs) they're also the ones that make sure that the incoming guys feel comfortably.

All this I've learned from interviews of players and posts I read here. I'd like to know the reasons why Gerrard is not the correct man for these tasks. The newcomers seem to adapt right (Torres, Mascherano) and they praise the existing captains.

There are different ways to captain a side. There are born leaders who drag there players performances up from the mire (like for example Keane) and then there are players who try to lead by example (for example Beckham or Owen). I think it is blatantly obvious that Gerrard falls under the latter. That being said, I don't think that is enough for the current team/squad.

Gerrard is an outstanding player, and he does it in the big games too at times. But he doesn't lead or guide the players like a captain should. Don't get me wrong, he is a unbelievable player on the pitch most of the time, but he doesn't drag the players up like a captain should.

Today when Masch needed a guiding word in his ear, like a captain should when he was shouting his mouth off, he wasn't spoken to. It was obvious to quite a few that it was only a matter of time that he would walk if he carried on but Gerrard never went over and said the obvious to him to calm him down. Now I am not saying Masch did nothing wrong coz he shouldn't have did what he did (although saying 'what is happening, what is happening' is hardly a bookable offence) but he was fired up like we have been asking for from our players in this type of fixture and he just needed to be calmed down to prevent the inevitable.

I love Gerrard and want him in our starting 11 for a long time to come, but at half time when players where remostating with the ref (Alonso, Torres, Reina, etc) Gerrard just walked past. Where was our captain standing up to for our players?

do you think carra and gerrard feel isolated cause of the amount of spanish influence in the team? maybe they dont feel at home anymore.

its like going to work, i used to be able to go to work and enjoy it cause i had a good team around me but after i changed team my attitude and morale changed. it felt more like WORK, and not FUN. our players need some freedom to enjoy their football and this is due to the fact everything it so technical under rafa.

when was the last time you saw a liverpool player other then mcmanaman,torres or babel take on 2 or 3 oppos? i feel the team arent able to express themselves anymore on the pitch. playing seems to be more of a chore then a joy now. the best liverpool team which actually played free flowing football was the one under roy evans.

it would be interesting to allow your best 11 players to just go onto the pitch, and tell them to do what they think is right to get a win. a leader would be born, or a few.

in liverpool, at this point i see alonso, reina or maybe in the future, torres as candidates.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:53 am

We lose to United and people want Gerrard stripped of the captaincy - fu.ck me some knoib heads on here have VERY short memories.

by **stmichael** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:23 pm

It's not just down to the defeat yesterday. It's a long standing belief that I have had. Gerrard just isn't captain material, in my book. That's not a criticism, by any means; just a simple statement of the truth. His game is so fundamentally and explosively individual (and, yes, I do know he also links well with others, too) that I think he should only focus on himself. Being a world class player is not an automatic qualification for the captaincy. This is akin to the positional thing with Gerrard that says just because he can defend, doesn't mean he should. Well ditto when it comes to pulling the armband on. He is fundamentally selfish (in the best sense of the word) and rightly so. The captaincy blunts him, in my opinion and also leaves the team occasionally leaderless.

Despite the growing popularity of scapegoating Carra this season (or again, in the case of some highly prominent forum irritants who slagged him constantly when he was a full back), he is quite obviously the player best suited to the captaincy in our squad: vocal, mentally strong, a great organiser and highly consistent.

This whole issue will be forever moot, though: no-one will ever take the captaincy off Gerrard.

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