Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:18 pm

Message from Kevin Keegan received at Anfield this morning: "Rotate, rotate...... rotate rotate....."

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:03 pm

Well, things have certainly taken an interesting turn of late and I wonder if it's worth revisiting the rotation discussion in light of our recent solid form. There has been some discussion in this thread earlier this season that rotation needs to be understood both in terms of personnel changes as well as formation changes. Well, by my estimate, we have been playing a 4-2-3-1 since the Sunderland game (perhaps Rafa's tactical adjustment after a very poor game at West Ham). That Sunderland match was 8 games ago and our record in that stretch has been 6-1-1, with a goal difference of +14. I think most would agree that a settled formation (and, indeed, one that seems to be getting the best out of many of our key players) has helped steady the ship after an abyssmal stretch in Jan. and early Feb.

Of course, the big question is: has Rafa been rotating personnel less frequently during this period? The numbers would seem to suggest so. The average seems to be about 2 changes per game during this stretch, with the notable exception of rotating for the FA tie with Barnsley. Now, I'm afraid I haven't been keeping as careful track of injuries/suspensions as I did earlier in the term so I have no sense of how many of those changes were forced. My gut says that a lot of the changes we've made in the defence during this run have been forced (injuries to Finnan and Skrtel, suspension to Carragher, etc.). Unforced rotation seems to be a bit more prevalent in central midfield, with Alonso and Lucas swapping around a little bit over this run of games. Up top, things have been pretty settled since Torres returned from injury. Until today's reshuffle, the foursome of Kuyt, Gerrard, Babel and Torres had played in the last four matches.

All of this coincides with Rafa's post-Barnsley suggestion that he would be rotating less now that we have only two competitions to worry about. And, based on our recent form I'm grown more convinced that Big Mick and the anti-rotationers have a point about the benefits of playing a settled side. The run of games is certainly helping a player like Kuyt find some form, not to mention Babel, Alonso, Skrtel and Aurelio. In fact, I thought that Benayoun and Pennant both looked slightly off the team wavelength today due to having not been in the side much during this run. Very interesting. :nod

by **NANNY RED** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:17 pm

Sorry Bob couldnt resist

How much did Mick give you in the brown paper bag and which service station :laugh:

Nah seriously some of what you say does make sense though

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:22 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Sorry Bob couldnt resist

How much did Mick give you in the brown paper bag and which service station

Nah seriously some of what you say does make sense though

Only some of it makes sense? Which parts did you like, Nanny? :laugh:

by **bigmick** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:34 pm

Well I've thought it was so all along so I'm hardly likely to go disagreeing now, but I would say that our good run has been made up of a string of extremely winnable games so I wouldn't quite be banging the non rotation drum as the main reason for it. It's almost certainly helped though, not so much in our overall play which is still a bit stop start, hot and cold for my liking, but in terms of the fact that we have a modicum of momentum right now, a winning habit and a confidence that goes with it.

The truth is that Newcastle are so poor that Gerrard and Torres probably didn't need to play. The question though is, do we gain more from them playing, getting a goal each, keeping the run and the momentum intact as well as building confidence, or from them getting rest and possibly some of the squad players getting a run out and being more able to step into the fold should they be needed?

My argument has always been for the former option. Yes Torres and Gerrard will now be marginally more fatigued for Wednesday than they would have been, but they'll also feel marginally better about themselves after scoring and winning again. Rafa would almost certainly have rested one or both of them previously, and I'm hugely encouraged by his decision not to do so this time.

by **JoeTerp** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:44 pm

I think the point about Yossi and Pennant being off the wavelength certainly seemed to be the case, however, this could also be a sign FOR rotation, in that if either of the two had been getting the odd game, maybe they would not have been so off the team wavelength, and then if an injury or suspension occured they could just jump right into the team with little drop off

by **heimdall** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:45 pm

bigmick wrote:Well I've thought it was so all along so I'm hardly likely to go disagreeing now, but I would say that our good run has been made up of a string of extremely winnable games so I wouldn't quite be banging the non rotation drum as the main reason for it. It's almost certainly helped though, not so much in our overall play which is still a bit stop start, hot and cold for my liking, but in terms of the fact that we have a modicum of momentum right now, a winning habit and a confidence that goes with it.

The truth is that Newcastle are so poor that Gerrard and Torres probably didn't need to play. The question though is, do we gain more from them playing, getting a goal each, keeping the run and the momentum intact as well as building confidence, or from them getting rest and possibly some of the squad players getting a run out and being more able to step into the fold should they be needed?

My argument has always been for the former option. Yes Torres and Gerrard will now be marginally more fatigued for Wednesday than they would have been, but they'll also feel marginally better about themselves after scoring and winning again. Rafa would almost certainly have rested one or both of them previously, and I'm hugely encouraged by his decision not to do so this time.

They will definitely be more fatigued on Wednesday as the Inter match is on Tuesday :rasp

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:15 am

but it might be Wednesday when Mick wakes up

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:24 am

bigmick wrote:Well I've thought it was so all along so I'm hardly likely to go disagreeing now, but I would say that our good run has been made up of a string of extremely winnable games so I wouldn't quite be banging the non rotation drum as the main reason for it. It's almost certainly helped though, not so much in our overall play which is still a bit stop start, hot and cold for my liking, but in terms of the fact that we have a modicum of momentum right now, a winning habit and a confidence that goes with it.

The truth is that Newcastle are so poor that Gerrard and Torres probably didn't need to play. The question though is, do we gain more from them playing, getting a goal each, keeping the run and the momentum intact as well as building confidence, or from them getting rest and possibly some of the squad players getting a run out and being more able to step into the fold should they be needed?

My argument has always been for the former option. Yes Torres and Gerrard will now be marginally more fatigued for Wednesday than they would have been, but they'll also feel marginally better about themselves after scoring and winning again. Rafa would almost certainly have rested one or both of them previously, and I'm hugely encouraged by his decision not to do so this time.

I'm not sure if you've seen the game yet Mick but the game took on a much different complexion after Gerrard and Torres came off. The rout was on until the subs and after that Newcastle started to gain more possession and belief. Partly it could have been due to the change in formation once Kuyt and Crouch came on but it was noticeable. So, I think we did need both today (but of course I knew you weren't really arguing we didn't, just underscoring a point about Newcastle).

For me, the stability in our selection of attackers has been key because it allows them to build both confidence and understanding. I think our defensive system is well drilled by Rafa (some recent wobbles on set pieces notwithstanding) and so--somewhat counter-intuitively--we can cope with more 'chopping and changing' at the back and with the more stay-at-home central midfielders. Up top and out wide, though, we have had problems with cohesion when we've rotated. In some matches, we've overcome that and scored for fun anyway. In others, though, we've struggled to get our attackers on the same page and this may have something to do with our troubles breaking resolute defending teams down.

Bottom line, any approach that can get Kuyt and Babel more confidence whilst not hampering Gerrard and Torres is worth sticking with, in my books.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:15 am

Bob, don't you think the problems we've had at the back is down to rotation. The last couple of years our defence has been as good as anybodys, but this season we've been shakey at the back.

2004/05...Dudek/Finnan/Hyypia/Carra/Riise (with the odd addition of Traore and Pelligrino)
2005/06...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Riise (with Hyypia coming in every now and then)
2006/07...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Aurellio (with Riise, Arbeloa and Hyypia playing bit parts)

This season however (down to injuries to some extent) we haven't had a fixed back four and keeper all season. Finnan, Arbeloa and Carra have all been fighting for the right back position. Agger, Skrtel, Hyypia, Carra and Arbeloa have all been the centre half pairing at some point this season. On the left we've had Aurellio, Riise and Arbeloa. We need to fix on a settled back four with Reina behind them in goal, then our defensive problems (mainly at set-pieces) would be sorted out IMO. To many people have been in that back four this season.

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:29 am

For me, the recent run of results can be attributed to 2 factors.

Agree with you bob, that firstly we've had a stable formation (4-2-3-1) and obviously being a proponent of less rotation, the impression (have not checked that yet to conclude this as fact) that the squad has been more stable. Now, which is the more crucial factor is still a matter of opinion.

All I know is that the results have been going our way and they have been added benefits.

1. We get to play our best players (3 out of 4 world class midfielders in the same side without having to resort to a 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 or 5-3-2)
2. Gerrard and Torres seem to be gelling into an outstanding partnership
3. Kuyt's been playing out of his skin lately and though he's still not perfect, he's way smarter than Pennant on the front right and seems to have found a niche for himself in that position.
4. The team seems to be having a lot of fun out there and it shows.... they're playing much more cohesively as a unit and confidence is apparently high.

All in all things are starting to look good and I'm glad that Rafa has adopted this formation and policy as we are playing much better now. It also shows that he's at last being more flexible about his policy to rotation and for that, I'm glad.

Would make investment for next season much easier..... 2 wide players and a back up striker, in case Gerrard or Torres gets hurt.

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:34 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Bob, don't you think the problems we've had at the back is down to rotation. The last couple of years our defence has been as good as anybodys, but this season we've been shakey at the back.

2004/05...Dudek/Finnan/Hyypia/Carra/Riise (with the odd addition of Traore and Pelligrino)
2005/06...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Riise (with Hyypia coming in every now and then)
2006/07...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Aurellio (with Riise, Arbeloa and Hyypia playing bit parts)

This season however (down to injuries to some extent) we haven't had a fixed back four and keeper all season. Finnan, Arbeloa and Carra have all been fighting for the right back position. Agger, Skrtel, Hyypia, Carra and Arbeloa have all been the centre half pairing at some point this season. On the left we've had Aurellio, Riise and Arbeloa. We need to fix on a settled back four with Reina behind them in goal, then our defensive problems (mainly at set-pieces) would be sorted out IMO. To many people have been in that back four this season.

True John but unless me memory's failed me, that's MAINLY down to injuries and Finnan's apparent loss of form....

I'll tell you one thing though, Arbeloa has been a fantastic buy. The lad can play across the back line and does the job well wherever he's asked to play. Not superbly but very well..... To my mind, he's invaluable as a squad member and can slot in relatively easily into the first team especially at left back.

Excellent player.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:43 am

I agree Con, Arbeloa is a great player and a real bargain. I don't think Finnan suffered alot of lack of form. I think rotation got the better of him. He hadn't made a mistake in four years, then this season he's in and out and makes a crucial mistake against Havant. Finnan however doesn't overlap on the right wing whereas Arbeloa does. Whether it's a tactical thing or just down to the indivual player I don't know.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:50 am

I agree with most of the new discussion about rotation (to be fair to Rafa, I think he is also starting to see the added benefits of a more settled team). What I am still unsure about is the new formation. I need to see it work against the top teams as well as teams we should beat easily anyway before I am convinced.

I agree it seems to have enabled Kuyt to gain some confidence and bring Alonso back into the mix, but I have a lingering doubt that it will not prove equally successful against Arsenal and the mancs. Nevertheless, I want Rafa to persist with it to the end of the season until we can bring in the top quality that we need. I still feel this system is more to hide our weaknessess (strikers)rather than emphasising our strengths, and that next season we will be playing 4-4-1-1

by **Effes** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:08 am

s@int wrote:What I am still unsure about is the new formation. I need to see it work against the top teams as well as teams we should beat easily anyway before I am convinced.

Was saying the same to my mate after West Ham - I could see us going to Old Trafford
with this 4-2-3-1 and coming unstuck.

Mind you, I want us to try it at OT - we gotta test it out against the top teams.

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