Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:34 am

bigmick wrote:Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Parlour, Gilberto or Edu is probably your missing central midfielder there mick.

Just so you know for future reference

by **taff** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:11 am

How is Wengers reserves doing compared to ours, probably a lot better I imagine

by **crazyhorse** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:45 am

bigmick wrote:Firstly I must say do love the way people who are Rafa supporters/apologists pick their targets for comparison. If it's not Shankly, it's Wenger or Ferguson. Given our record in the League under Rafa I'd be sticking with the Souness's or the Bruce Rioch's of this World if it was me but there you go.

That said, the way I see it if we're making a comparison with Wenger over the last four years and Rafa is this. Firstly, Rafa has rebuilt a team in Premiership terms which finished fourth the season before he arrived, into a team which if it pulls it's finger out of it's erse has got about an even money chance of finishing fourth this season as well. This has been done at considerable expense, and all the while I would guess that for the vast majority of his tenure he has had within his first choice team (if there is such a thing) Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Riise and to a lesser extent Kewell and Hyppia. There may be others but I'm no statistician.

Wenger, if we really must make the comparison (and once again I'm amazed that people who like Rafa choose this particular battleground) had a team which the season before Rafa came won the Premiership. They won it without losing a game as it happens, and in the vast majority of games the team was largely unchanged (he doesn't go an awful lot for Rafa style doesn't the Arsenal manager). Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Someone once said that Wengers methods on team selection are "stuck in the nineties". I'm not sure about that. I think the comparison with any manager to be perfectly honest and the Frenchman in terms of picking up players for nothing and moulding them into an exiting little team is pointless. It's probably best we just accept that he has his own way of doing things and in his particular sphere he is a bit of a one off. Rafa doesn't look too good in direct comparison, but then again not that many managers do I wouldn't have thought.

I think that is a spot on post which brings a lot into perspective.

Wenger has taken the old "dirty boring Arsenal" and made them into the best footballing side in the country. He has done this by investing in youth and building his side around a quality spine with a mixture of flair and determination.

Arsenal are a team I would pay to watch, they pass, move and have great pace. Not unlike us under King Kenny when the one and two touch football we were playing was among the best quality ever seen.

Also the fact that Wenger likes to keep a settled side and seldom changes the formation is key.

by **Big Niall** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:40 am

nearly everybody in England agrees that you can't win the league with rotation - except Benitez.

I think the Wenger argument is won (especially considering he won the double in his first FULL season at Arsenal).

People said GH rebuilt the club and he should stay, then when a new manager gets four years but no progress in the league they claim that he has rebuilt the club.

I understand an emotional feeling of loyalty but if the wrong man is in charge, there is nothing wrong with saying "thanks for Istanbul, here is a load of compensation, good luck with your next big job in Spain"

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:24 pm

I like Rafa but I just feel its time for change. Its not about bitterness for this season alone. I truly believe that Rafa, just like Houllier, has taken us as far as he can. As managers go he isn't as good as those who have won the premier league recently - Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho.

We need to be scouting for a coach who has proven long term credentials, Liverpool fans need a league title more than ever and I don't think Rafa's coaching style can bring that.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:33 pm

peewee wrote:next season if rafa is still boss gerrard may as well get this out of the way at the start of the season and tell us at that point we will be involved in a battle for fourth with city, spurs, everton etc

peewee in hates Rafa shocker - read all about it.

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:39 pm

Big Niall wrote:I think the Wenger argument is won (especially considering he won the double in his first FULL season at Arsenal).

i'm sure you're an arsenal fan more and more everytime you post.

you seem to be in love with the man or something.

by **Big Niall** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:44 pm

stmichael wrote:
Big Niall wrote:I think the Wenger argument is won (especially considering he won the double in his first FULL season at Arsenal).

i'm sure you're an arsenal fan more and more everytime you post.

you seem to be in love with the man or something.

There is nothing wrong with thinking another team has a superb manager and play great football - if Torres had signed for Chelsea then you'd probably say he is sh!te.

Credit where it is due.

by **RedBlood** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:48 pm

puroresu wrote:Rafa aint had the money chelsea have had but as wenger has shown u can find quality players if u have a good scouting network. If u gave wenger £100 mil in he summer he wouldnt go and buy the most expensive players as u dont need to. If Rafa cannot find gems on the cheap thats his problem. Oh and all this 'wenger was given time to rebuild his side so why not rafa' talk is laughable. People speak as if Wenger was given time without justification. A double in your 2nd season, then losing the title by 1 point the following season isnt bad. 3 years later its another double and scoring in very single league game. An FA cup to follow and then a season going unbeaten. He may not have won anything since 05 but is it any wonder he has been given time to build his side. His trophy wins means he deserved time. Not to mention everyone could see the side he was building was v young and given time would progress to what u see today. No trophies but there fans and the club could see progress was being made and it was only a matter of time before the kids learnt how to do it week in week out. Rafa has yet to prove he has what it takes to even mount a serious challenge for the title let alone win a title. His choice of players in the transfer market is also questionable.

incase you havnt noticed mate our reserve teaM MADE UP OF YOUNGSTERS RAFA HAS BROUHT INTO THE CLUB ARE TOP OF THE LEAGUE PLAYING AGAINST MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS

loool sorry about the caps, cant be bothered writting it again

rafa is bringing young players into the squad and from what ive seen some of them have big futures

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:52 pm

If, (and its still a fuc.king big if) Arsenal win the league this season, it will be four seasons it has taken to assemble a title winning side. This was assembled on the back of a title win in 2003-2004.

When United won the league last season it was a side that was four seasons in the making. This was on the back of their league win in 2002-2003.

When Chelsea won the league, it was a team that took 3 years to assemble (since Roman took over). This was on the back of many many millions, and despite the obviously inflated prices (cus Chelsea came knocking) it was stil la considerable amount of money.

THESE ARE NOT EXCUSES - THEY ARE PERSPECTIVE.

We had to sell the club, cus it was THE ONLY way of keeping on the coat tails of the teams who have won the league in the last decade.

Over the last four years, in terms of spending, we are probably fourth highest in this league, can we really expect to finish any higher than fourth ?

Disclaimer - I am not a pro rotationalist, pro Rafa, Rafa apologist or any of the other such listing that people who seem to struggle with their own arguments need to catagorise people with. I am pro Liverpool, but I am realist.

by **RedBlood** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:57 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:If, (and its still a fuc.king big if) Arsenal win the league this season, it will be four seasons it has taken to assemble a title winning side. This was assembled on the back of a title win in 2003-2004.

When United won the league last season it was a side that was four seasons in the making. This was on the back of their league win in 2002-2003.

When Chelsea won the league, it was a team that took 3 years to assemble (since Roman took over). This was on the back of many many millions, and despite the obviously inflated prices (cus Chelsea came knocking) it was stil la considerable amount of money.

THESE ARE NOT EXCUSES - THEY ARE PERSPECTIVE.

We had to sell the club, cus it was THE ONLY way of keeping on the coat tails of the teams who have won the league in the last decade.

Over the last four years, in terms of spending, we are probably fourth highest in this league, can we really expect to finish any higher than fourth ?

Disclaimer - I am not a pro rotationalist, pro Rafa, Rafa apologist or any of the other such listing that people who seem to struggle with their own arguments need to catagorise people with. I am pro Liverpool, but I am realist.

spot on mate

by **nobybob** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:58 pm

bigmick wrote:Firstly I must say do love the way people who are Rafa supporters/apologists pick their targets for comparison. If it's not Shankly, it's Wenger or Ferguson. Given our record in the League under Rafa I'd be sticking with the Souness's or the Bruce Rioch's of this World if it was me but there you go.

That said, the way I see it if we're making a comparison with Wenger over the last four years and Rafa is this. Firstly, Rafa has rebuilt a team in Premiership terms which finished fourth the season before he arrived, into a team which if it pulls it's finger out of it's erse has got about an even money chance of finishing fourth this season as well. This has been done at considerable expense, and all the while I would guess that for the vast majority of his tenure he has had within his first choice team (if there is such a thing) Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Riise and to a lesser extent Kewell and Hyppia. There may be others but I'm no statistician.

Wenger, if we really must make the comparison (and once again I'm amazed that people who like Rafa choose this particular battleground) had a team which the season before Rafa came won the Premiership. They won it without losing a game as it happens, and in the vast majority of games the team was largely unchanged (he doesn't go an awful lot for Rafa style doesn't the Arsenal manager). Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Someone once said that Wengers methods on team selection are "stuck in the nineties". I'm not sure about that. I think the comparison with any manager to be perfectly honest and the Frenchman in terms of picking up players for nothing and moulding them into an exiting little team is pointless. It's probably best we just accept that he has his own way of doing things and in his particular sphere he is a bit of a one off. Rafa doesn't look too good in direct comparison, but then again not that many managers do I wouldn't have thought.

a few FACTS borrowed from lando concerning rafa and wengers transers

Posted: June 25 2007,18:09

For Arsenal, Wenger has bought (not loaned) 70 players, for a total outlay of £161,890,000. (Recouping £27.3m since the summer of 2004.)

That's an average of £2.3m per player.

Rafa has signed 39 players, for a total outlay of £86,755,000.

That's an average of £2.2m per player. (Recouping £40.53m since his arrival in June 2004.)

Therefore, Wenger has spent £1.9m per player after sales are included, where Rafa has spent £1.2m per player after sales.)

Bearing in mind that the market has changed since 1996, with bigger transfer money being exchanged over recent years, I think it's time to lay this "Wenger is brilliant in the transfer market" to bed.

Rafa has spent less on players, yet won more than that French c*nt. (Obviously only comparing their trophy records from 2004 onwards.)

Now that the golden boy of transfers has been exposed as anything but, can we please concentrate on our team, rather than that wrinkly tw*ts?

Rafa is a match for anyone - fact.

P>S mick here is what you said of rafa and his buying abilities

big mick Posted: June 26 2007,12:34

No, in all seriousness there is absolutely no comparison for me. Benitez annoys me intensely with his ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics, but he has done wonders in the transfer market in my opinion.

by **puroresu** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:03 pm

RedBlood wrote:
puroresu wrote:Rafa aint had the money chelsea have had but as wenger has shown u can find quality players if u have a good scouting network. If u gave wenger £100 mil in he summer he wouldnt go and buy the most expensive players as u dont need to. If Rafa cannot find gems on the cheap thats his problem. Oh and all this 'wenger was given time to rebuild his side so why not rafa' talk is laughable. People speak as if Wenger was given time without justification. A double in your 2nd season, then losing the title by 1 point the following season isnt bad. 3 years later its another double and scoring in very single league game. An FA cup to follow and then a season going unbeaten. He may not have won anything since 05 but is it any wonder he has been given time to build his side. His trophy wins means he deserved time. Not to mention everyone could see the side he was building was v young and given time would progress to what u see today. No trophies but there fans and the club could see progress was being made and it was only a matter of time before the kids learnt how to do it week in week out. Rafa has yet to prove he has what it takes to even mount a serious challenge for the title let alone win a title. His choice of players in the transfer market is also questionable.

incase you havnt noticed mate our reserve teaM MADE UP OF YOUNGSTERS RAFA HAS BROUHT INTO THE CLUB ARE TOP OF THE LEAGUE PLAYING AGAINST MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS

loool sorry about the caps, cant be bothered writting it again

rafa is bringing young players into the squad and from what ive seen some of them have big futures

Reserve team football is such a low standard that it doesnt really mean anything for a side to be top of the league. Even Rafa has said reserve team football is not really an indicator of whether someone is ready to play at the highest level. The players are not playing at a real competitive level in the reserve league. Neil Mellor scored plenty in the reserves but it didnt hold any weight when it comes to moving to the next level.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:05 pm

bigmick wrote:Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Flamini - signed July 2004, Fabregas - signed Sept 2003, Toure - signed February 2002, Senderos - signed December 2002, Van PErsie - signed MAy 2004, Djourou - signed 2003, Almunia - signed July 2004, Bendtner - signed June 2004.

Rafa Benitez became Liverpool manager - June 2004.

How many of the above are in the first team ?

Hardly a fair comparrison now is it ?

by **maguskwt** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:05 pm

well said Leon...

the disclaimer is interesting though... because as much as I'd like to agree with it... we ARE pro rafa...

because we see the quality of rafa, we know that he's one of the best managers in the world and that's why we don't mind giving him more time to the extent of 5-6 years... because we believe that he can do it and only fair enough after he's given us the fifth CL and the 7th FA cup... if it's let's say Big Sam for example or any other lesser manager, we might not be as impatient and/or fickle as those other fans who's asking for rafa's head now, or the newcastle fans, but we still might not be willing to give him as much time as we are willing to give rafa...

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