Liverpool FC Forum

bigmick wrote:Look you can't blame Rafa for a player or plyers missing chances, of course you can't. You can't blame the manager if a player misses a penalty in the last minute, nor can you blame him if like against Chelsea we are robbed of a richly deserved win by a ridiculous misjudgement by the referee. You can't blame Rafa if the opposition goalkeeper has a blinder, or if one of their number scores the goal of his life and buries it on the volley from 30 yards. This is why we don't judge the manager after one game, or one month, or even one season. This is why we look at things in their entirity, how the thing fits together.

This is why if you sign Torres you aren't the best manager in the World, and if you sign Morientes you aren't the worst. All managers make mistakes, all make poor signings, all get it wrong sometimes. The successful ones thoguh get it right more than they get it wrong, and when they do make errors they learn from them and try not to repeat those faults.

If it's the players who are at fault, and it's absolutely nothing to do with the manager what do we do from here? If motivating the bunch of players we have and moulding them into a competitive team is nothing to do with the manager, what ids our next course of action? Even though he signed the vast majority of the players, even though it's his team it's nothing to do with the manager how they perform. If it really is the owners or the players, then what do we do? Do we get rid of say 2/3 of the squad and strart again? Do we "show some faith", give the manager say 75 million in the Summer and go with the feeling he'll win the Premiership from there? When we say, "give him more time", how much are we talking? Are we talking next season only, two more, three? Maybe we are talking a job for life?

I'm just curious here as to what the people who support the manager would like to see happen. How long do we give him or is there no time limit? How do we measure success, or is there no measurement? How much money does he need to be given in the Summer assuming he stays to make us competitive, or are we competitive enough already, or doesn't it really matter if we're competitive? If Hicks decides to stay for ten years, do we stick with Rafa until he's gone and then give him a proper go with a new owner? Having being accused myself many times this season of being fickle, a knee jerker, disloyal etc etc I am now wondering what those who are staunch, loyal, have faith, not fickle, not a knee jerker etc etc have in mind. Having been asked "well who else is there?" and earlier in this thread "what do you do for a living again" my questions go out to the "In Rafa we trusters". My feelings are and always have been that I want the team to do well. If it is to be achieved with Rafa at the helm then fantastic. Just let me know what you've got in mind if you've got a minute.

Well i for one think that is a good honest post Mick

As you must know by now im in the pro Rafa camp as Bob so elequantly put it . I think and believe that he will deliever thats why he should see out his contract and not be gotten rid now.

He has brought in some good players this season ie Torres ,Masherano, and now Lucas has come on leaps and bounds coupled with the fact that the youngsters he also brought in who are plying there trade in the reserves i would suggest Benitez has seen something special there. Because having watched them play many times the talent is there.

Some might say why isnt he using them then. Agreed .
But would we be going mad if he did bring a few kids in we would still say as fans :He shouldnt have played him or him so the loose loose situation is back again for him.

There has been 4 managers at this club since we last won the league how many more are we gonna go through before we win it again. I would say let him see out his contract start afresh next season hopfully with one or two world class signings in the summer, barring any long term injurys to crucial players and no behind the scenes shenanigans , Bring a few of the quality kids into the squad and hpefully then we can make a push.

But that just my little humble opinion


By the way what job do you do

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Kharhaz wrote:

Those who blame the players have to ask themselves "who bought these players" "who plays these players out of position" "who complains about missed chances, but still insists on playing people who can't take chances" If you get the same answer I did when I asked myself those questions then surely you'll agree, Benitez isn't up to the job here as a league manager.

Does that include Gerrard? or any other of the midfielders? It seems that the drought runs through the entire team at times including Torres. As a manager what can you do about that? you can train all week but if it doesnt happen on the day, in which we have had a few of them days, what can he do? The only option now is to get rid of Kuyt and Voronin and bring in another class striker, keep crouch and try bringing one of the young lads in as 4th choice.
Like I said earlier, the blame lies both with the manager and the players.

Well correct me if I'm wrong but every manager in England has three substitutions that they can make...am I correct?

If it's not happening for a player on a day, you change them, whether it's goalscoring, every pass going astray or every tackle is giving away a foul. If these things happen, you change it. But Benitez doesn't believe in that way of thinking. He likes to make changes 70 mins into a game so the oncoming player has only 20 minutes to get used to the pace and then try and change the game istantly. Benitez also likes to bring off those who are playing well like he did on Saturday. Babel was playing out of his skin, so he gets brought off. Tactical genius there by Mr Benitez.

Kharhaz wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Kharhaz wrote:

Those who blame the players have to ask themselves "who bought these players" "who plays these players out of position" "who complains about missed chances, but still insists on playing people who can't take chances" If you get the same answer I did when I asked myself those questions then surely you'll agree, Benitez isn't up to the job here as a league manager.

Does that include Gerrard? or any other of the midfielders? It seems that the drought runs through the entire team at times including Torres. As a manager what can you do about that? you can train all week but if it doesnt happen on the day, in which we have had a few of them days, what can he do? The only option now is to get rid of Kuyt and Voronin and bring in another class striker, keep crouch and try bringing one of the young lads in as 4th choice.
Like I said earlier, the blame lies both with the manager and the players.

Well correct me if I'm wrong but every manager in England has three substitutions that they can make...am I correct?

If it's not happening for a player on a day, you change them, whether it's goalscoring, every pass going astray or every tackle is giving away a foul. If these things happen, you change it. But Benitez doesn't believe in that way of thinking. He likes to make changes 70 mins into a game so the oncoming player has only 20 minutes to get used to the pace and then try and change the game istantly. Benitez also likes to bring off those who are playing well like he did on Saturday. Babel was playing out of his skin, so he gets brought off. Tactical genius there by Mr Benitez.

Playing out of your skin doesnt mean your on form though does it? If that was the case Kuyt must be god status.

My overall point is as much as rafa is to blame as much for some strange decisions the players also have to shoulder the blame for poor performances.

bigmick wrote:My suspicion is that we will have  a new maanger next season though which will of course cause a couple of things to happen. Firstly, pro-Rafa people will be able to stick to their stance, because Rafa will not in any way shape or form have failed, the club will have pulled the trigger too early. Secondly, they will then be in a classic win-win situation visa vis the clubs fortunes. If the team bimbs out even further, watch out for the "ah, see what happens when you sack a top manager. Happy now?" comments. If it does well of course it will be Rafa's team  .

He's got us sussed. 

dosserboy wrote:As I walked along I smashed a bottle today (accidently, I promise) and a genie appeared and granted me three wishes. I did not have to think about it for too long and quickly replied.....

1. DIC in
2. Rafa out
3. mourinio in

.....end of story!

Id have said:

1: I want to be the worlds richest man so I can buy LFC

2: I want a nymph for a wife

3: The spice girls to be lost in the antarctic

bigmick wrote:Amazing really when you think about it isn't it? We lose at Home in the fifth round of the FA Cup to Barnsley, and there is barely a wimper on the forum aside from the bleatings of a few wind-up merchants.

Had it been in the third round while we were going all out for the title and had just fielded a team of reserves, it might have been kind of OK. Had the draw still been full of Premiership teams, waiting to ambush us at the next stage it would have been slightly more bearable. But here we were, in one of the two competitions we could possibly win and in the one out of the two in which gave us easily the biggest opportunity, and we lost, at home, to Barnsley.

So why the under-reaction? Well there are a number of reasons. I guess the main one is that most of the arguments have been done to death already. I must say I can hardly be bothered coming on here and debating when you know that regardless of what has happened, irrespective of how low we have stumbled there is a faction on the forum who will stick to their guns on Rafa no matter what. It'll be our lack of funds, the fact we approached Klinnsman in November, the Americans, the players who aren't trying, the injuries, the refs, the strikers and a thousand other things but whatever it is, it won't be the mananger that's for sure. Give him more time, four more years, knee-jerkers, Ooters, disloyal and all that comes pouring out every time. Then there is "so who is the alternative?" argument, blurted out at every turn. Quite why people think that a manager who has presided over a shambolic campaign in the league, an FA Cup exit at Home to Barnsley, an early exit in the Carling Cup and a scrape through the group stages in the Champions League despite being in a p!ss easy group would be a hugely difficult act to follow right now is beyond me but they throw the question out there with gay abandon anyhow. It's a bit like the poster who asked (in all seriousness) a couple of months back, who on Earth would be a better bet than Dirk Kuyt? Once I started I couldn't stop. I think I got to Cameron Jerome at Birmingham and started getting blisters on my fingers.

"Let him finish what he's started". I ask you, in all seriousness where will we be once he's finished what he's started? We went behind to Luton and needed an equaliser to take them to a replay where we won through. We went behind to Havent and waterlooville twice, at Home, before we eventually prevailed. We got dumped out, at home, to Barnsley in the next round.

If (as I think we will) we get knocked out by Inter Milan in this next round of the Champions League, what will it take before the fan club finally, eventually accept that maybe, perhaps, Rafa's methods aren't working? Is there any point in the future, ever, where people will think, "you know what, I think it might be time for a change". I ask, because quite simply the debate is over. We are getting worse and worse, more and more embarassing and it's even get to the point where we can lose at Home to Barnsly in the fifth round of the FA Cup and to be absolutely truthful, none of us are even surprised. Surely that's the clearest indicator of all.

NANNY RED wrote:Theres a good link that Dundalk posted in the Benitez thread by Oliver Holt worth a listen and maybe find some answers

ivor_the_injun wrote:It sounds weird, but part of me is actually sort of pleased that we got knocked out at Barnsley.

lakes10 wrote:Talk are saying that they have word that if we dont get a good result this week Rafa will be sacked after the game ( ), they would at least let him have a sleep first.

they did not say how they got this info (do they ever).