Liverpool FC Forum

by **figgis** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:30 pm

I come from swindon suport swindon but liverpool are my boyhood team. my brother lives in southport and we try to get a ticket when im up. i honestly believe lfc are at a crossroads if rafa dosn't change his views on the english game and stop his rotation policy he will do unrepairable damage to the club in my view he has got to go the problem is who to bring in to replace him.

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:31 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
heimdall wrote:What would it take for you guys to loose faith in him, relegation maybe? Why do you guys think things will be better next season?

I wish I could answer these questions, TBH, but I can't. I still have faith in him despite being deeply frustrated at how far we've slid backwards this season. No doubt many will find my faith inscrutable, laughable, woefully naive, whatever. There's not much I can say to that, to be perfectly honest. All I know is that I re-examine my views on Rafa constantly and especially after terrible results like yesterday and, still, I've yet to feel in my gut that he's taken us as far as he can. That's something I can't explain to myself let alone to those of you who want him out but that's honestly why I still support Rafa. Will there come a time soon when my gut says we need to make a change? Perhaps and I'm certain I'll say so when it happens. Until then, though, I remain unapologetically pro-Rafa.

It's fair enough Bob and I've never criticised pro-Rafa people for their stance, it's the tendency of some to pour scorn and derision upon those of us who have allowed the odd doubt to creep in which I find a bit tiring at times.

At least you accept that it is infact a pro-Rafa stnce which to some extent has its eccentricities rather than an anti one. Everyone though is entitled to their view, and there is always the possibility, however unlikely it looks right now, that Rafa and Rafa style may work one day. Obviously I don't think it will, but there is always a possibility and as such a pro Rafa view as long as it's expressed sensibly deserves as much respect as any other.

My suspicion is that we will have a new maanger next season though which will of course cause a couple of things to happen. Firstly, pro-Rafa people will be able to stick to their stance, because Rafa will not in any way shape or form have failed, the club will have pulled the trigger too early. Secondly, they will then be in a classic win-win situation visa vis the clubs fortunes. If the team bimbs out even further, watch out for the "ah, see what happens when you sack a top manager. Happy now?" comments. If it does well of course it will be Rafa's team

.

The very same people who accuse anti-rafa people of hoping the team loses so they can get stuck into the mananger will get accused of doing the same thing so they can stick the boot into Mourinho or whoever it is. Not by me though, because no Liverpool fan hopes the team loses, I'm absolutely certain of that.

by **TwelthMan** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:40 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
We are getting worse and worse, more and more embarassing and it's even get to the point where we can lose at Home to Barnsly in the fifth round of the FA Cup and to be absolutely truthful, none of us are even surprised. Surely that's the clearest indicator of all.

So true.

What amazes me is that the usual fans that defend Rafa up until the sheer point of stupidity hide or dont even post on here after such a humiliation. They'll tell us "its posters like you who usually come out with the same old cr.ap, with your knives sharpened towards Rafa after a defeat"

Well I come out just as much after a win and praise and credit the lads, of course I'd love to talk about how great we are playing and wha a team we look. But as it stands I cant, havent done for at least a season now.

Tuseday will come, and by God by some miracle we keep a clean sheet and beat Inter, all the usual suspects will come out and say ..... ' Where are all those miserable Kunts who want to see rafa fail now ?'

My reply will be 'I'm here right with ya, celebrating' of course though that makes me fickle, to see my team lose and moan about it, then next game we win and I celebrtate it. If that is fickle, that would suggest the likes of Lando, LFC2007, Redtrader 74 and Sabre are equally happy when we lose. I just do not understand their argument. Amongst all that I will STILL mantain Rafa needs to go, Alonso and Kuyt are not good enough even if we did win the CL, but then again there is more chance of the Pope becoming a devil worshipper than there is of us winning the CL.

As a club due to the Yanks we've become an embarrisment
As a team where heading that way too.
Sorry Rafa, time has ticked out you.

Yeah - that's right - we don't have lives outside of this forum. We spend all day waiting for an opportunity to defend Rafa...

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Every club has a bad season - why should we be any different?

You want reasons, so we give them to you:

Injuries, bad officials, the owners being gimps, players under-performing.

But no. Thi sis never enough for the vulturous vermin out there.

It HAS to be Rafa.

Well f*ck the lot of you. That team and the tactics were more than good enough to turn Barnsley over. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a prat.

OK? That alright, Bamaga? Can I get back to my life outside this forum now, your f*cking honour?

Are you in fact Rafa? Injuries? To who exactly? Bad officials? They are bad to everyone? In fact they are too good to us like the Everton game and even yesterday's ref tried to save us in not giving a clear pen! Bad luck? Like luck doesnt even itself out eh? Owners? yes they are cun.ts but they dont pick sub standard teams with sub standard instructions.

The team and tactics were not good enough because we lost - it's very simple really. :wwww

by **lakes10** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:44 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:NANNY, there are two camps when it comes to Rafa.

camp one

happy to just sit back and win the fa cup or CL every few years and do nothing in the prem.

Camp two

Play good football each week, close the cap on the top teams, try to win the Prem at all cost, fa cup and CL will come in time but No 1 is the prem.

i am in camp two,
Rafa has done nothing in the prem in 4 years, how many points have we takem from the top 3 in the pream in the last 4 years?

say's it realy.

No, no, no, mate...that's not it at all. There are two camps but it shakes out like this:

Camp One still has faith in Rafa

Camp Two doesn't

What that means is that those of us in Camp One still feel that, despite mounting evidence to the contrary (I freely admit), Rafa has the capacity to win us the league. We don't just want cup success and the only reason we refer to the cups is because, to us, they demonstrate that Rafa can get the best out of players and put silverware in the cabinet. To us in Camp One, those cups have cemented our faith in the man and we are prepared to be a bit more patient with him in the hopes that he'll bring us the league.

For those of you in Camp Two, it seems clear that you have lost that faith in the man. A very few of you never had it in the first place and that's your prerogative. Many of you, however, did have tremendous faith in the man at one point but have now decided that he's no longer up to the task of bringing us the league. Again, that's your prerogative. As I've admitted, you've got mounting evidence on your side as well as mounting backing from fellow supporters. I'd even go so far as to say that you will almost certainly get your wish because I expect Rafa will be off, one way or the other, by season's end at the latest.

To answer Mick's initial question, IMO, as a debate, this "Rafa - stay or go?" discussion is over. We in Camp One will never convince you in Camp Two that you're wrong at this stage (and vice versa, to be fair). You refute any evidence we might wish to present and you clearly don't share the faith that underlies it all for us, so what's the point in arguing about it? That's why a lot of us are much quieter these days: we can't be a.rsed debating the issue when so many minds are already made up. I just hope that we can keep any discussion that arises civil. This place has already seen enough flame wars in the past few months.

Thanks for that reply.

I have always had faith in Rafa when it has come to the CL as he is a great manager in that way.

The problem i have always had with him was his lack of understanding of English (something he said himself just after he took the job, he said something like it might take him some time to get up to speed on how the prem works).

I just can not see him coming back from this now, I also feel that most of our players have lost trust in him and i can not see him getting them back.

I do feel that it is now going to take about 2 years to fix what has been going on at our club.

By the way if Rafa did go i have no idea who the next manager would be but a British manager would be good.

by **lakes10** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:48 pm

At the end of the day we all love Liverpool FC and it :censored:

hurts when we dont win or when you open up a paper and see :censored:

in there about our club or fans.

this forum shows how much we love this club, the passion shown in most post (for Rafa and against Rafa) is immense.

by **Kharhaz** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Whatever rafa does is going to be criticized. If he rotates in a cup match its his fault, if he picks his strongest team and they dont perform its rafas fault. Whatever way you look at it the blame lies with both the players and the manager. If the manager plays a player out of position and it cost us then yes the blame is with the manager but the those who go out on the pitch all pick up a handsome wage and are all wearing the finest shirt in england, which the rest of us have to save up and pay for ! Whenever the blame is placed on the players it always seems to be at the same scapegoats, kuyt and before he went sissoko. Against barnsley Liverpool attacked and attacked and attacked and still couldnt get that second goal. And that has been the pattern for a long time. The players have to learn how to take there chances. It would be more concerning if liverpool were not creating chances but the fact that they are shows rafa is doing something right, he cannot be blamed for the players not taking the chances.

by **TwelthMan** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:36 pm

Kharhaz wrote:The players have to learn how to take there chances. It would be more concerning if liverpool were not creating chances but the fact that they are shows rafa is doing something right, he cannot be blamed for the players not taking the chances.

Of course you can blame Rafa for the wasteful chances. In fact how good were the chances yesterday really? We might have expected more clear cut chances and we might have expected strikers who have confidence to even try - Kuyt was a joke again despite his goal - he had a great chance in a great position near the end to win it but didn't even kick the :censored:

.ing ball just chested it down ffs! We might have expected a better performance with his strongest team with more confidence but we got none of that. If you think that's not down to Rafa then you are bonkers!

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:38 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
We are getting worse and worse, more and more embarassing and it's even get to the point where we can lose at Home to Barnsly in the fifth round of the FA Cup and to be absolutely truthful, none of us are even surprised. Surely that's the clearest indicator of all.

So true.

What amazes me is that the usual fans that defend Rafa up until the sheer point of stupidity hide or dont even post on here after such a humiliation. They'll tell us "its posters like you who usually come out with the same old cr.ap, with your knives sharpened towards Rafa after a defeat"

Well I come out just as much after a win and praise and credit the lads, of course I'd love to talk about how great we are playing and wha a team we look. But as it stands I cant, havent done for at least a season now.

Tuseday will come, and by God by some miracle we keep a clean sheet and beat Inter, all the usual suspects will come out and say ..... ' Where are all those miserable Kunts who want to see rafa fail now ?'

My reply will be 'I'm here right with ya, celebrating' of course though that makes me fickle, to see my team lose and moan about it, then next game we win and I celebrtate it. If that is fickle, that would suggest the likes of Lando, LFC2007, Redtrader 74 and Sabre are equally happy when we lose. I just do not understand their argument. Amongst all that I will STILL mantain Rafa needs to go, Alonso and Kuyt are not good enough even if we did win the CL, but then again there is more chance of the Pope becoming a devil worshipper than there is of us winning the CL.

As a club due to the Yanks we've become an embarrisment
As a team where heading that way too.
Sorry Rafa, time has ticked out you.

Yeah - that's right - we don't have lives outside of this forum. We spend all day waiting for an opportunity to defend Rafa...

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Every club has a bad season - why should we be any different?

You want reasons, so we give them to you:

Injuries, bad officials, the owners being gimps, players under-performing.

But no. Thi sis never enough for the vulturous vermin out there.

It HAS to be Rafa.

Well f*ck the lot of you. That team and the tactics were more than good enough to turn Barnsley over. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a prat.

OK? That alright, Bamaga? Can I get back to my life outside this forum now, your f*cking honour?

Officials

OMG, injuries

Not Rafa of course though, you desperate turnip.

by **Kharhaz** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:41 pm

TwelthMan wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:The players have to learn how to take there chances. It would be more concerning if liverpool were not creating chances but the fact that they are shows rafa is doing something right, he cannot be blamed for the players not taking the chances.

Of course you can blame Rafa for the wasteful chances. In fact how good were the chances yesterday really? We might have expected more clear cut chances and we might have expected strikers who have confidence to even try - Kuyt was a joke again despite his goal - he had a great chance in a great position near the end to win it but didn't even kick the .ing ball just chested it down ffs! We might have expected a better performance with his strongest team with more confidence but we got none of that. If you think that's not down to Rafa then you are bonkers!

Your reply proves my point. Chances were there and not taken.

by **Torres 2007** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:50 pm

There is a solution that I can see, dont know what you all think for next season:

Sell Kuyt and/or voronin.

Use that Money to buy Michael Owen.

then if we have 50m to spend in summer say.

bid 30/40m for Kaka from AC MIlan. (Just two new players required).

Also sell Kewell, or swap him for a dodgy K-Reg Fiesta, with rust, that failed it's Mot.

we dont need piles of up and coming youngsters.

play this team most of the time and do not change it too much (giving exception to xmas/ euro games maybe):

Reina
finnan Carra Agger Arbeloa

Gerrard Masch Kaka Benayoun

Owen Torres.

Or alonso for owen and kaka plays off Torres.

But you get my drift.

what do you all think.

thats what I would do if I was him (ok on Fifa 2007 it works a treat) but you mark my words a more cutting edge Liverpool.
And owen could certainly take advatage of all these chances that are being missed.

he is pure class and clinical , might i add in the box when fit.

just gamble Rafa and lay down some big money for 1/2 top drawer players to compliment what class we do have.

my point is...THERE ARE PLAYERS OUT THERE WHO CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IMMEDIATELY.

thats my Idea. it's so good, I may forward my CV to Rick Parry. :eyebrow

by **Sabre** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:57 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:NANNY, there are two camps when it comes to Rafa.

camp one

happy to just sit back and win the fa cup or CL every few years and do nothing in the prem.

Camp two

Play good football each week, close the cap on the top teams, try to win the Prem at all cost, fa cup and CL will come in time but No 1 is the prem.

i am in camp two,
Rafa has done nothing in the prem in 4 years, how many points have we takem from the top 3 in the pream in the last 4 years?

say's it realy.

No, no, no, mate...that's not it at all. There are two camps but it shakes out like this:

Camp One still has faith in Rafa

Camp Two doesn't

What that means is that those of us in Camp One still feel that, despite mounting evidence to the contrary (I freely admit), Rafa has the capacity to win us the league. We don't just want cup success and the only reason we refer to the cups is because, to us, they demonstrate that Rafa can get the best out of players and put silverware in the cabinet. To us in Camp One, those cups have cemented our faith in the man and we are prepared to be a bit more patient with him in the hopes that he'll bring us the league.

For those of you in Camp Two, it seems clear that you have lost that faith in the man. A very few of you never had it in the first place and that's your prerogative. Many of you, however, did have tremendous faith in the man at one point but have now decided that he's no longer up to the task of bringing us the league. Again, that's your prerogative. As I've admitted, you've got mounting evidence on your side as well as mounting backing from fellow supporters. I'd even go so far as to say that you will almost certainly get your wish because I expect Rafa will be off, one way or the other, by season's end at the latest.

To answer Mick's initial question, IMO, as a debate, this "Rafa - stay or go?" discussion is over. We in Camp One will never convince you in Camp Two that you're wrong at this stage (and vice versa, to be fair). You refute any evidence we might wish to present and you clearly don't share the faith that underlies it all for us, so what's the point in arguing about it? That's why a lot of us are much quieter these days: we can't be a.rsed debating the issue when so many minds are already made up. I just hope that we can keep any discussion that arises civil. This place has already seen enough flame wars in the past few months.

Nail. On. Head.

Seconded that aswell.

We all are gutted. And you only have to read some members where are Sabre and Lando to realise that if you dare to defend Rafa you'll start an ugly discussion.

I personally feel we do not need that kind of fight, so I decide just to read other's feelings, and share with you that I'm well gutted.

I can't blame the people who are dissapointed with Rafa. Still I think that insulting him like a clown is OTT. But you can't blame me neither to support him. If I supported him 2 months ago, sorry, but a few games won't change that, as I understand that any manager will have to go through a crisis at some point. I don't know anyone who hasn't.

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:59 pm

Look you can't blame Rafa for a player or plyers missing chances, of course you can't. You can't blame the manager if a player misses a penalty in the last minute, nor can you blame him if like against Chelsea we are robbed of a richly deserved win by a ridiculous misjudgement by the referee. You can't blame Rafa if the opposition goalkeeper has a blinder, or if one of their number scores the goal of his life and buries it on the volley from 30 yards. This is why we don't judge the manager after one game, or one month, or even one season. This is why we look at things in their entirity, how the thing fits together.

This is why if you sign Torres you aren't the best manager in the World, and if you sign Morientes you aren't the worst. All managers make mistakes, all make poor signings, all get it wrong sometimes. The successful ones thoguh get it right more than they get it wrong, and when they do make errors they learn from them and try not to repeat those faults.

If it's the players who are at fault, and it's absolutely nothing to do with the manager what do we do from here? If motivating the bunch of players we have and moulding them into a competitive team is nothing to do with the manager, what ids our next course of action? Even though he signed the vast majority of the players, even though it's his team it's nothing to do with the manager how they perform. If it really is the owners or the players, then what do we do? Do we get rid of say 2/3 of the squad and strart again? Do we "show some faith", give the manager say 75 million in the Summer and go with the feeling he'll win the Premiership from there? When we say, "give him more time", how much are we talking? Are we talking next season only, two more, three? Maybe we are talking a job for life?

I'm just curious here as to what the people who support the manager would like to see happen. How long do we give him or is there no time limit? How do we measure success, or is there no measurement? How much money does he need to be given in the Summer assuming he stays to make us competitive, or are we competitive enough already, or doesn't it really matter if we're competitive? If Hicks decides to stay for ten years, do we stick with Rafa until he's gone and then give him a proper go with a new owner? Having being accused myself many times this season of being fickle, a knee jerker, disloyal etc etc I am now wondering what those who are staunch, loyal, have faith, not fickle, not a knee jerker etc etc have in mind. Having been asked "well who else is there?" and earlier in this thread "what do you do for a living again" my questions go out to the "In Rafa we trusters". My feelings are and always have been that I want the team to do well. If it is to be achieved with Rafa at the helm then fantastic. Just let me know what you've got in mind if you've got a minute.

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:59 pm

I don;t think you can blame rafa for players not putting the ball into the net if they have the chance to do so. He isn't a shooting instructor, he is a manager. You can lay blame on him for selecting a player who is :censored:

, but considering who he could have picked he probably played the two best strikers available, so then the only thing you can blame him for is buying Kuyt in the first place, which is a fair attack, but to be fair, I don;t think many were calling it such a terrible buy at the time of purchase. I don't think Kuyt had a reputation for being so terrible with the ball in front of goal in Holland, in fact I thought that he had a rep for being fairly prolific, he was a hardworker to boot, a regular international player for a pretty decent international side. I guess there is also the arguement that rafa made kuyt into this suck :censored:

player or his tactics don't utilize his strengths or he sucks at motivating Kuyt, which again would be fair, but I would argue it might also be down to his ability to adapt to the English game, who sees Kuyt doing well at any other english club?

Kuyt is just one example, but the same basic arguement could be applied to many players.

And certainly there have been games where Rafa's tactics or formaiton or selected squad were a much higher contributing factor to a loss than they were yesterday.

But most of the blame yesterday would go down as bad luck mixed with poor quality and a dash of a questionable sub in taking Babel off for Kewell

Now you can blame a lot of the poor quality on Rafa as well because he does choose the players, but I think overall he has a pretty decent record on his signings, with the main issue lying on the fact that he has bought too many players and not enough quality, but if you look on a quality per pound analysis on each deal, its not a bad record.

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:00 pm

Sorry but no to Owen. And im in favour of bringing some of the ressies through from what ive seen of them a couple of them are ready now.

If Owen is your idea of a quick fix then id better get my cv off

by **nobybob** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:00 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:NANNY, there are two camps when it comes to Rafa.

camp one

happy to just sit back and win the fa cup or CL every few years and do nothing in the prem.

Camp two

Play good football each week, close the cap on the top teams, try to win the Prem at all cost, fa cup and CL will come in time but No 1 is the prem.

i am in camp two,
Rafa has done nothing in the prem in 4 years, how many points have we takem from the top 3 in the pream in the last 4 years?

say's it realy.

No, no, no, mate...that's not it at all. There are two camps but it shakes out like this:

Camp One still has faith in Rafa

Camp Two doesn't

What that means is that those of us in Camp One still feel that, despite mounting evidence to the contrary (I freely admit), Rafa has the capacity to win us the league. We don't just want cup success and the only reason we refer to the cups is because, to us, they demonstrate that Rafa can get the best out of players and put silverware in the cabinet. To us in Camp One, those cups have cemented our faith in the man and we are prepared to be a bit more patient with him in the hopes that he'll bring us the league.

For those of you in Camp Two, it seems clear that you have lost that faith in the man. A very few of you never had it in the first place and that's your prerogative. Many of you, however, did have tremendous faith in the man at one point but have now decided that he's no longer up to the task of bringing us the league. Again, that's your prerogative. As I've admitted, you've got mounting evidence on your side as well as mounting backing from fellow supporters. I'd even go so far as to say that you will almost certainly get your wish because I expect Rafa will be off, one way or the other, by season's end at the latest.

To answer Mick's initial question, IMO, as a debate, this "Rafa - stay or go?" discussion is over. We in Camp One will never convince you in Camp Two that you're wrong at this stage (and vice versa, to be fair). You refute any evidence we might wish to present and you clearly don't share the faith that underlies it all for us, so what's the point in arguing about it? That's why a lot of us are much quieter these days: we can't be a.rsed debating the issue when so many minds are already made up. I just hope that we can keep any discussion that arises civil. This place has already seen enough flame wars in the past few months.

Could not agree more .

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