Liverpool FC Forum

bigmick wrote:Somebody said earlier that the constant playing of Kuyt has probably alienated more fans from Rafa than anything else and I agree with that. Some people like myself have lots of other problems witht he way that Rafa does things, but this issue above all others has IMHO made more "in Rafa we trust"ers shake their heads than any other.

Funnily enough I've supported rafa in his fall out with Crouch. Managers do fall out with players from time to time and in those circumstances, the player has to go. Ferguson has done it many times over the years, Jaap Stam and Van Horseface spring to mind. When it happens, you sell up and move on. The bit that gets me though is not that the fallout happened, it's that we didn't sell up we just fecked up by continuing to play Kuyt. What is the point of that? Then every time Crouch plays he either scores or looks like he might score. It's time for the end of the silliness. Reina always plays in goal, Gerrard and Masherano always play in the centre, Carragher always plays, it's time to add Torres/Crouch into the always play list.

Owzat wrote:

bigmick wrote:I thought you'd probably find a way Owz' of making the stats question what our eyes are telling us, namely that Crouch offers around 1000% more than Kuyt and you didn't disappoint. (All seasons in a Liverpool shirt), well I guess that run Crouch had when he didn't score in his first sixteen games or whatever it was does come in handy for something. Similarly, goals is goals I guess so the fact that Kuyt has scored three Premiership goals this season needs no embellishment. The fact that two out of the three were penalties in one game, and the other goal was a result of the ball hitting him and going in doesn't warrant a mention I guess . And then you've got the cheek to mention Sunderlands poor defence for Crouch's header which gave us the lead  Similarly, it must be my imagination that we seem to flit between the "minutes per goal" comparisons and the "goals per appearance" ones, in whichever manner makes our case better at the time.

I'll give you another factor which can't be quantified by stats I don't think. If you have two players, one of whom plays regularly in the team and one who makes occasional appearances, sometimes going three weeks without getting a start, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect more sharpness and goal threat from the regular starter? Just something to consider when making the comparison.

It strikes me that sometimes people are more concerned with proving themselves right (and I definately include myself in this) than they are with looking at the thing objectively. It's very much like the rotation debate and the pro/anti Rafa thing. I admitted the fact that I called Kuyt totally wrong after half a dozen or so appearances ages ago (I even started a thread to that effect). For that reason it doesn't stick in my throat now to admit now that I think he is an absolute distance short of top-half Premiership club standard. However poor anybody thinks Crouch is, he is a fecking better proposition than Kuyt in every sense by an absolute mile, and no amount of statistical juggling will alter the fact.

I repeat what I said in the topic starter. If you swapped the number of appearances which Kuyt and Crouch had made in the Prem this season, we would be a few points ahead of where we are now I'm sure of it.

Crouch offers 1000% more than Kuyt does he?  I'm glad there's no statistic to back that up, then you're probably one of those who prefers opinion dressed up as fact.

I'm sorry, did Sunderland's defence suddenly become fantastic? Or Havant for that matter? The same Sunderland defence that the bitters scored SEVEN against, still you had to find some way to try and make the stats out to be biased! 32 goals in 13 away games proves my point, hot air doesn't prove your's

And as usual I say Kuyt is as bad as Crouch and you (and others) make out like I'm defending him! Did I say Kuyt is better than Crouch? He scored at a goal every other game early season, Crouch wasn't playing. If you want to play compare cr ap with cr ap then knock yourself out

Fair enough on the week in, week out call. Yet Crouch has played NINE full 90 minutes this season and six lots of 60+ minutes so he's played a full part in nearly half the Liverpool games. Kuyt has played the full 90 minutes sixteen times which is only seven more than Crouch, although the way some of you lot talk you'd think Crouch had not played in years.

Neither is good enough, face facts. If you want to delude yourself that Crouch is going to become a top class striker by playing more often then suit yourself, however all you're doing is criticising me for putting down the stats. You don't have to believe my comments, the fact that you comment on the fact that he took sixteen games to score but not that he played every f ing game bar one in that goalless spell shows selectivity on your part. Why didn't he score in those sixteen games? Because he's sh ite. And he played consistently for his former club, or will you use his ban carried over as an excuse perhaps. Your knack of finding the smallest thing as an excuse reminds me of a bitter blaming Heysel...................