The rotation thread - All "R" talk in here please!

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby bigmick » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:14 am

LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:I have been accused by soime before of claiming to have all the answers (I wonder who that could be    :;): ) but I don't.

Was not me.

Nah mate I think it was Red that's why I winked at him. We have this little thing going me and him, he makes a little retort about an anti-rotationer who shall remain nameless (and I know it's me   :D ) and I do talk about the in Rafa we trusters and he thinks its him   :D .

It's cool though, I don't always agree with what he says but he's a knowledgeable fella and I'm sure in real life a nice one too. Not unlike your good self LFC in many respects  :;):
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:14 am

I still think that, whilst Rafa will never completely abandon rotation, he has shown a willingness to minimize it for top players.  How many games do Carragher or Gerrard get rested?  Not many.  Torres has now moved into that bracket of untouchables as well after some early experimentation with resting him that has been well discussed in this thread already.  Agger was in that category before his injury and, were it not for each other, either Alonso or Mascherano would be in that group too.  Reina's obviously there too but keepers don't really count in a rotation discussion.

My point is that Rafa might be inclined to rotate less if we could buy some truly quality players who also happen to be as reliable as the ones mentioned.  Big Mick's mentioned the notion that Rafa is trying to assemble two good teams instead of one great one.  There's probably some truth to that, as Rafa has said he wants two good players for every position.  But, I would think that the Torres buy would demonstrate the need to pay top dollar on top talent to succeed.  If Rafa were given the cash to buy us just two more Torres', we might just see a much more settled side next season.
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:16 am

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:I have been accused by soime before of claiming to have all the answers (I wonder who that could be    :;): ) but I don't.

Was not me.

Nah mate I think it was Red that's why I winked at him. We have this little thing going me and him, he makes a little retort about an anti-rotationer who shall remain nameless (and I know it's me   :D ) and I do talk about the in Rafa we trusters and he thinks its him   :D .

It's cool though, I don't always agree with what he says but he's a knowledgeable fella and I'm sure in real life a nice one too. Not unlike your good self LFC in many respects  :;):

The dreaded wink.
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Postby ConnO'var » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:24 am

redtrader74 wrote:Players and systems can't really be compared IMO, Morientes failure was a failure in a LIverpool shirt, not neccessarily a failure in the Premier league, Shevchenko i'd gamble would score goals for MAn Utd and probably shed loads for Arsenal, players have many factors that would lead them to fail in another league such as language barriers, cultural differences, homesicknesses (Looks, Kuyt only!) none of which are even football related.

You said that you believe your reasoning is sound, but how can you be so sure when the methods HAVE worked in a equally competitive and skillful league?  It seems your reasons are gut feelings rather than quantifiable ones, because the as i said the points you made are givens for any league and not exclusive to the EPL.

I'm not presuming to answer for Mick, RT74..... but I don't think that it's accurate to say that the reasons are gut feel only.....

To a greater or lesser extent, the proof is empirical. For the life of me, I cannot find a single team in EPL history, to have won the league while rotating the spine of the team as often as we do and have been doing for the last 4 years.

History is the empirical proof.

Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't go against the grain and try something new and revolutionary.... Every successful team has always had something about them that they did differently as compared to the masses. But rotation is an "experiment" that we have tried for 4 years which have yet to yield any tangible "fruits" to harvest in the league.

While I agree that rotation has appeared to work in other leagues, I'm loathe to say that I understand it to any degree of certainty. Certainly not enough to conclude that the teams in those leagues rotate the spine of the team to the extent that I find detrimental to the team's performance. The reason for this is simple.... I don't watch enough of La Liga and the Serie A to have meaningful data to formulate a conclusion of any significance.

What I will offer, is a reason why I feel that rotation doesn't work for us in the premier league.

We play a more physical and faster paced brand of football here. Players are often harried in posession and allowed very little time on the ball. It's how the "lesser" teams cope with the top sides. To borrow an American basketball term, they apply a "full court press". As such, a clear and often instictive understanding of where one's teamates are or will be is so important, as they have to be able to pass the ball along with much less time afforded to them. The premiership is IMO a less technical but more physical league as compared to the other 2 mentioned above.

This is precisely why I believe that a stable spine is so important. The fact that each player instinctively knows where their team mates are going to be without having to take that extra millisecond or so to have an extra look around. That sort of understanding can only come into being with the familiarity that comes with a stable side/spine.

I feel that this is one of the reasons behind why we struggle with physical teams like Bolton, Blackburn, Birmingham, Middlesborough etc but do well against proper ball playing sides. They don't give us any time on the ball at all. This is a tactic that Fergie frequently adopted against us.... He'll put a mongrel into our midst in the form of a Fletcher, Phill Neville or Butt to just simply kick us off our normal playing style knowing full well that we don't have a proper midfield enforcer or the instinctive ability to offload the ball well to a team mate as we never have enough playing time together as a result of rotation.

Conversely, this also why I feel that we do have players good enough to compete for the league. We've proven it time and time again in Europe. We can compete with the best because they allow us more time on the ball.... It's when we play the Fenerbaches and Olypiakos of the world that we struggle because they adopt a similar approach to compensate for their lack of pure footballing ability.

Take Xabi Alonso for example.... the man is pure class.... any fool can see that. In Europe, he's effin' brilliant! But he has struggled in the premiership once teams have sussed out his playing style.... so much so that I feel Mascherano is a much better partner for Stevie... why? Because Alonso's grown up playing in a system which affords him more time to make up for his physical limitation of strength and pace. Does that mean that he's a bad player? Of course not... but he would do much better if he's given more time to play with the same players week in and week out as he'll be able to CREATE more time for himself to wreck havoc on the opposition.

IMO, if we want to rotate, we need much better players AND a couple of midfield enforcers (in the mold of McMahon and Souness) is an ABSOLUTE must. Even then, it probably wouldn't be enough... not in the premiership at least.

Rotation Factor needs to come down below 0.2. Right Mick?  :D  :D
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Postby bigmick » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:25 am

LFC2007 wrote:The dreaded wink.

PMSL :D  :laugh: It makes it look sarcy but nah it wasn't mate I meant it.
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Postby bigmick » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:30 am

Conn your post is a very good one and you said it better than me. The rotation factor is a tad too high I'll agfree with that. I've been plotting it on a graph and I've noticed it is slighly parabolic in nature, showing a tendency to disappear up my erse    :D
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Postby ConnO'var » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:30 am

bigmick wrote:Conn your post is a very good one and you said it better than me. The rotation factor is a tad too high I'll agfree with that. I've been plotting it on a graph and I've noticed it is slighly parabolic in nature, showing a tendency to disappear up my erse    :D

PMSL......  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:05 pm

:D

Nice to see some good discussion in the ole rotation thread again (not that my baseball analysis wasn't brilliant, mind :D ).  Conn, I think you make some excellent points about the pace of the game in England and how a settled side might have more ability to cope with the harrying that other teams use against us.

The other reason why we struggle is we have difficulty breaking down resilient, well-organized teams who sit 10 men behind the ball and dare us to beat them (Man City of late is probably the best example).  Any thoughts on how rotation helps/hinders/makes no difference (delete as necessary) our efforts to overcome that approach?
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Postby ConnO'var » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:42 pm

Bad Bob wrote:The other reason why we struggle is we have difficulty breaking down resilient, well-organized teams who sit 10 men behind the ball and dare us to beat them (Man City of late is probably the best example).  Any thoughts on how rotation helps/hinders/makes no difference (delete as necessary) our efforts to overcome that approach?

Ah Bob..... IMHO, that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

I don't believe that rotation has any significant impact in this sort of scenario. Obviously I'm no expert but my feel is that we need something altogether different to overcome sides who employ that particular tactic. Heres my 2p worth.

The key to this, is having the ability to move the opposition around and to get them out of their established position and create the space that is clogged up by having 10 men behind the ball. The way I see it, we can do this in 2 different ways.

1) Have proper pacey, skillful wingers/wing backs that stay out wide when attacking and compresses inwards when defending. This will force the opposing wingers and fullbacks out wide and create a vacuum on the inside which will have to be filled in by the centre back or opposing holding midfielder. This has a cascading effect which will create space for our other attacking players. Right now, we don't have this option available. Even with Pennant and Kewell playing we don't do this well as there's nobody upfront who will attack the ball. The reason for that? I honestly don't know but it's one of two things or even a combination of both. Our strikers aren't good enough to play the conventional centre forward role and attack crosses or/and it's the way they're set-up upfront.

2) The other option is to play with a playmaker in midfield or a creative second striker. I happen to agree with s@int in that I prefer a creative second striker ala Dalglish, rather than a continental set-up of a playmaker (of course I'm a little biased in this as I worship the ground he walks on ever since I met him as an 8 year old). I prefer the customary 2 central midfielders often used in England..... a box-box midfielder and a midfield enforcer. Hence, the need for a Beardsley or Dalglish type player. The problem is that these type of players are few and far between and hence nigh on impossible to find.

The other big clubs use a combination of both. The Mancs use option 1 these days but they have been known to use Option 2 when they had Cantona. Arsenal and Chelsea use option 1. In our heyday we were experts with both. So all that endless waffling I've posted above is not new or original. Merely an observation of what's been known to be successful over the years.

So to cut a long story short, IMO, rotation would not be a significant factor in the scenario you described.

:D
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:50 pm

ConnO'var wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:The other reason why we struggle is we have difficulty breaking down resilient, well-organized teams who sit 10 men behind the ball and dare us to beat them (Man City of late is probably the best example).  Any thoughts on how rotation helps/hinders/makes no difference (delete as necessary) our efforts to overcome that approach?

Ah Bob..... IMHO, that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

I don't believe that rotation has any significant impact in this sort of scenario. Obviously I'm no expert but my feel is that we need something altogether different to overcome sides who employ that particular tactic. Heres my 2p worth.

The key to this, is having the ability to move the opposition around and to get them out of their established position and create the space that is clogged up by having 10 men behind the ball. The way I see it, we can do this in 2 different ways.

1) Have proper pacey, skillful wingers/wing backs that stay out wide when attacking and compresses inwards when defending. This will force the opposing wingers and fullbacks out wide and create a vacuum on the inside which will have to be filled in by the centre back or opposing holding midfielder. This has a cascading effect which will create space for our other attacking players. Right now, we don't have this. Even with Pennant and Kewell playing we don't do this well as theres nobody upfront who will attack the ball. The reason for that, I honestly don't know but it's one of two things or even a combination of both. Our strikers aren't good enough to play the conventional centre forward role and attack crosses or/and it's the way they're set-up upfront.

2) The other option is to play with a playmaker in midfield or a creative second striker. I happen to agree with s@int in that I prefer a creative second striker ala Dalglish, rather than a continental set-up of a playmaker. (of course I'm a little biased in this as I worship the ground he walks on ever since I met him as an 8 year old). I prefer the customary 2 central midfielders often used in England..... a box-box midfielder and a midfield enforcer. Hence, the need for a Beardsley or Dalglish type player. The problem is that these type of players are few and far between and hence nigh on impossible to find.

The other big clubs use a combination of both. The Mancs use option 1 these days but they have been known to use Option 2 when they had Cantona. Arsenal and Chelsea use option 1. In our heyday we were experts with both. So all that endless waffling I've posted above is not new or original. Merely an observation of what's been known to be successful over the years I've watched.

So to cut a long story short, IMO, rotation would not be a significant factor in the scenario you described.

:D

Good analysis, mate.  It sounds like a broken record but we are really two wingers and a proper creative second striker short of being the finished article (a pacey, attacking fullback who could also defend wouldn't go amiss either).  What we need are players who offer the consistent quality in those positions that Torres offers up top.  They don't have to be absolute world class like, say, Ronaldo, since players like that are hard to come by and are very, very expensive...but, we need better players than Pennant, Kewell and Benayoun out wide and are going to have to go up a price bracket to get them.  The same goes for that "in the hole" second striker--we'll have to splash the cash to buy quality in a position where there aren't a lot of cut-rate options that would provide the impact we need.

This is why this whole thing with the owners is so devastating.  Not only are they making all the wrong moves to do with loans, the stadium and their press releases about the manager, they are also making it clear that they aren't prepared to put their hands in their pockets to buy us a few more attacking players at Torres's level.  If they were to see there way clear to doing so or if DIC were to come in and stump up the cash and provided Rafa was still here and used the money well, I honestly think we would see a more settled side that had the nous to break 10-behind-the-ball teams down and the skill to deal with the constant harrying style you've mentioned, week in, week out.  I'm not holding my breath that all of those things will fall into place, though, under this current ownership regime.
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Postby stmichael » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:58 pm

Bad Bob wrote:The other reason why we struggle is we have difficulty breaking down resilient, well-organized teams who sit 10 men behind the ball and dare us to beat them (Man City of late is probably the best example).  Any thoughts on how rotation helps/hinders/makes no difference (delete as necessary) our efforts to overcome that approach?

Dunno Bob. It's a difficult one.

Personally, I think the quality of the squad is fine, we just don't have the right style of play/approach to games. Don't get me wrong, we can definitely improve and aren't the best team in the Premiership by any means, but we should be doing better than we are with the players we have at our disposal.

Changing systems and formations, dropping in form players, playing players out of position. IMO its stopping us getting a run of form together. Morale looks very low to me and at least 4 of the starting eleven against Villa the other day are playing for their futures imo.

I don't believe the Andy Gray school of thought that rotation demoralises players. Very few of our players didn't know that was going to be the situation when they joined. They should be working their ar$es off when selected, because when we get to a point in the season where rotation matters less, like a final for example, the manager is more likely to select them.
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Postby Bammo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:25 pm

I'm not gonna start quoting people or it'll end up pages long with a huge box of quotes in quotes so you'll all have to look for the bits that are relevent to you :D

I haven't analysed the team selections but I'm under the impression that Rafa has stopped rotating the core. I know this was the main gripe against rotation for some of you :p so has this changed your opinion recently? Reina, Carra, Gerrard and Torres play every major game now. Kuyt seems to as well for some reason. I'd imagine Agger would too if he was fit.

Breaking down teams with 10 men behind the ball: We lack that creative 2nd striker to play that style of football. Kuyt isn't that player. He can't play that role and it also negates his strength of playing on the shoulder of the defenders. My opinion is that rafa should play to our players' strengths. The best thing he can do is allow Torres and Kuyt (if that's the partnership he's intent on playing) to play in the box. Leave the creative play to Gerrard and the wingers. Pennant gets criticised for not being accurate with his crosses. It would help if there were strikers in the box. If he plays, keep him putting crosses in and have the strikers attacking the box. Where he needs to improve is his goal threat. He only has about 3 shots a season. Kewell has a few months to save his Liverpool career. He's stopped running at defenders and prefers to hold the ball up. It doesn't help our team and it's going to result in him leaving us.

I'd love Rafa to spend the next few months playing the team he wants to the players' strengths. He's walking on a tightrope with regards to his job so now's the time for him to say fuck it, just go for it. Send the team out playing with the attacking freedom we saw against Derby, Besiktas, Newcastle etc.
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Postby ConnO'var » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Bad Bob wrote:It sounds like a broken record but we are really two wingers and a proper creative second striker short of being the finished article (a pacey, attacking fullback who could also defend wouldn't go amiss either).  What we need are players who offer the consistent quality in those positions that Torres offers up top.  They don't have to be absolute world class like, say, Ronaldo, since players like that are hard to come by and are very, very expensive...but, we need better players than Pennant, Kewell and Benayoun out wide and are going to have to go up a price bracket to get them.  The same goes for that "in the hole" second striker--we'll have to splash the cash to buy quality in a position where there aren't a lot of cut-rate options that would provide the impact we need.

This is why this whole thing with the owners is so devastating.  Not only are they making all the wrong moves to do with loans, the stadium and their press releases about the manager, they are also making it clear that they aren't prepared to put their hands in their pockets to buy us a few more attacking players at Torres's level.  If they were to see there way clear to doing so or if DIC were to come in and stump up the cash and provided Rafa was still here and used the money well, I honestly think we would see a more settled side that had the nous to break 10-behind-the-ball teams down and the skill to deal with the constant harrying style you've mentioned, week in, week out.  I'm not holding my breath that all of those things will fall into place, though, under this current ownership regime.

Agree completely, mate.

This is why I was so disappointed when we couldn't find the extra 2 million quid to get Alves..... the prospect of the havoc and terror the boy could have caused had me trembling in anticipation. So when we traded the option to get him for Bellamy and Pennant, I was severely upset.

The new owners aren't helping either and right now, I live in fear at the thought of us potentially becoming another Leeds.

Hindsight is always 20-20 but just how good is DIC looking now?
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Postby bigmick » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:54 am

s@int wrote:Rotation policy has put Liverpool in a spin
By Alan Hansen
Last Updated: 12:30am BST 08/10/2007

Six weeks ago, Liverpool had just beaten Derby County 6-0 at Anfield and the hope and optimism surrounding the club went through the roof with real expectation that this could finally be the year that, for the first time since 1990, the title would be heading back to Merseyside.

Yet four league games later, Liverpool are playing like a team of strangers with their confidence draining away. They got out of jail with a 91st-minute equaliser against Tottenham yesterday.
   
One of my former managers at Liverpool, Joe Fagan, once remarked that football was a simple game with simple explanations and simple team selections. The easier you make it, the easier it is to go on long winning runs, but it is all down to simplicity of selection.

Ever since the Derby result, though, Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez has continued his rotation policy by making four or five changes for every game that his team play. Rotation is great when you are winning because nobody can criticise it, but once you start struggling, people will automatically go and look for the reason why and, during those last four games, Liverpool have never had the same team twice.

After winning at Sunderland and then pummelling Derby, I feel that Rafa really missed a trick when he selected his team for the following game against Portsmouth at Fratton Park. The fact that the match came straight after an international break didn't help, but his team were winning with confidence and we all expected to see Steven Gerrard, Ryan Babel and Fernando Torres at Portsmouth, yet none of them started.

Portsmouth is a tough place for any team to go and get a result, but Liverpool could have gone there, played their best team and achieved the victory that would have put out a real statement.

As it was, they failed to score, then had another goalless draw at home to Birmingham before narrowly beating Wigan and then losing at home to Marseille with a horrific performance in the Champions League in midweek. So just six weeks after the huge optimism, it is beginning to be doom and gloom.

Since the international break, Steven Gerrard has not been at his best and the surging runs haven't been there, but the team have not played well either, and it is not a good sign that Liverpool's results and performances have dropped off with Gerrard's own displays.

And Peter Crouch continues to be left out of the team and not even on the bench. We are all looking in from the outside wondering what the situation is because Crouch has shown time and again that he can change games in the final 20 minutes, but Benitez has his ideas about every player and maybe he has made his mind up about him.

As the manager, Benitez is entitled to listen to nobody, but with the recent results, he has to look at the problem and find a solution, but the obvious solution from where I am would be to stop rotating his players so much.

Benitez appears to have too many considerations in his mind when he picks his team. He thinks about who Liverpool are playing next week, if his players are tired, how they played last week and how their opponents play.

But the guys that I played under at Liverpool would simply have picked their best team and Benitez needs to do that for the next five or six games and hope that his players play themselves out of their poor run. The fact that he has only named one unchanged team in 153 games amazes me, so I guess the chances of him now keeping the same team for six games are pie in the sky.

There is no question that rotation has to happen in the modern game, but my experience is that tiredness doesn't affect players when they are winning, yet if you tell a player he is tired, then he will be. It is all psychological. When I was at Liverpool, we never heard the word 'tired'.

The one trophy that everybody at Liverpool wants more than any other is the Premier League and that is why people will suddenly grasp any belief that this could be the year. And despite the recent poor performances, let's not forget that Liverpool have still not lost a Premier League game this season.

Benitez's ideas about rotation revolve around having his players fit and fresh towards the end of the season, yet when it comes down to it, there is no point having your players fit and flying when there is nothing left to play for.

Just been flicking through the rotation thread. This is on page 7. How wrong we were to dismiss the words of some of our ex-players....
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Postby bigmick » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:56 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:Listening to people with no medical background debate the cons of rotation and resting players in October is like listening to a chimp in the hope it might tell you your name:

Time consuming, and totally pointless.

This was page eight, around the time of the emergence of the "delayed gazelle" theory.
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