Lando_Griffin wrote:tel wrote:Lando_Griffin wrote:tel wrote:Lando_Griffin wrote:tel wrote:Lando_Griffin wrote:bigmick wrote:Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?
The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.
On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.
The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.
In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.
Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.
And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?
As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?
If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?
I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.
Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)
So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.
You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:
persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan
We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.
Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it
So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?
YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)
What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".
Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."
Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin...
And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.
It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it?
You can hardly hold up that game as proof of Rafa's capabilities to win games.
We were lucky to scrape through, they should have a penalty in the last minute, we werent even in the game in the 1st half until Gerrard single handedly burst forward, won the penalty and got that smarmy little gimp sent off in the process.
And he got subbed.
Fk me.
We just have to face that Rafa is not going to achieve with us what he achieved with Valencia.
The players are not playing with confidence, he's confused the hell out of them with his selections, rotations and substitutions, and there's only a slim chance he'll admit to being wrong. He has cost us points with his decisions (and a title challenge) through selecting the wrong players, not starting the right players, and persisting with the worst players.
So once again - his tactics can be wrong, but never right?
His subs can be wrong, but never right?
And his starting line-ups can be wrong, but never right?
Winning every competition going is all irrelevant as you think he's cost us points in the league, even though we've struggled with our "best" line-up on numerous occasions, despite them having a run?
Am I somewhere in the right area, here?
His tactics, subs and starting line ups, rotations policies and other Rafa trademarks are right often enough to give us a top 4 finish 20+points behind the top 2.
He is right enough often enough for us to be 3rd or 4th, but not often enough to get us challenging for the title.
I'd wildly speculate that most supporters want us to challenge for the title, not get it right often enough to finish 20 points off the leader, and scrapping with the likes of Man City for 4th spot.
Just a wild guess
And you think, given the same parameters, that someone else could do better?
Is that what you're saying?
The parameters being:
1. They cannot secure their first-choice targets, nor the 2nd, 3rd or 4th. They MUST make do with what's left, save for the odd one now and again.
2. They must be undermined by their bosses, both publicly and privately.
3. They must, at all times, play Steven Gerrard in the centre, despite him being a far better player out wide.
4. They must not deviate from the standard 4-4-2.
5. They must face a media campaign to hound them out of their job.
6. They can't alter their starting line-ups for any reason excluding death.
7. Fernando Torres must play every match, even when ill, unfit, or fatigued.
8. They must not make any unsuccessful signings. Particularly, they shouldn't buy a Dutch striker with a goalscoring record of 1 in 3 for 1/3 of what our rivals pay for a defender.
9. They shouldn't allow said Dutch striker to play himself back into form, as this is obviously a sign of favouritism and scullduggery on the manager's part.
10. They shouldn't, under any circumstances, choose a team that the armchair fans disagree with.
That about the size of it?
faith in the team you support even if you do not like the manager...
