Liverpool FC Forum

by **puroresu** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:10 pm

LittleHobo wrote:
puroresu wrote:I think rafa should go. If we dont finish 4th I dont even think its up 4 debate.

its not what the pro rafa people on here will say

they will support him if we finish 5th or 6th and do nothing in the cups

they reckon every manager has a bad year

Rafa has his bad year in season 1 where we finished 5th and 30 points behind the champions. Since then he hasnt even got us in a realistic race for the title. 4th is and miles behind isnt good enough for me but if he fails to get us in the top 4 I dont see how anyone can defend him.

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:18 pm

Can we win the CL every season under Rafa Absolutly

Can we win the prem under Rafa? Absolutly not unless he stops chopping and changing the team every week.

Can we win other cups under him F.A. and Carling Absolutly even with chopping and changing

by **redtrader74** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:19 pm

puroresu wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:
puroresu wrote:I think rafa should go. If we dont finish 4th I dont even think its up 4 debate.

its not what the pro rafa people on here will say

they will support him if we finish 5th or 6th and do nothing in the cups

they reckon every manager has a bad year

Rafa has his bad year in season 1 where we finished 5th and 30 points behind the champions. Since then he hasnt even got us in a realistic race for the title. 4th is and miles behind isnt good enough for me but if he fails to get us in the top 4 I dont see how anyone can defend him.

Nobody is defending a failure to get into the top 4, that would clearly be a disaster and would result in his dismissal. The success of a season is not judged on the League alone, but on results in all Competitions. That first season we won something i think......oh and a league cup final.

by **redtrader74** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:23 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

hes spent alot of money and we should progress this year (still alot of games to go we still could end doing ok this season)

if not i believe he should go

hes been here 4 years now so its not like newcastle or something.

by progress i dont just mean trophys i mean

1. style of football
2. performance agaisnt the rivals
3. challenging for the title
4. breaking down teams who come to anfield and just defend

You have decided that should we have a bad campaign this year that Rafa should go. ONE BAD YEAR......He will not be the first or last manager to have a poor year (in any of the disciplines you noted) part way through their tenure, it has happened to ALL top managers.

Thats why its nonsense.

Ok so reaching a CL final (Challenging for the biggest trophy in Club football) is rubbish, but you would be happy, and consider successful, challenging (not Winning) the League.

That BTW is called hypocrisy.

by **redtrader74** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:34 pm

s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

Maybe the one bad year and out bit is wrong, but the idea of whether we have progressed or not under Rafa is a sound arguement.

We were a good cup side that struggled to make the top 4 every season before Rafa. We are a good cup side now thats struggling to make the top 4 under Rafa. We had a brief period
of finishing third while Arsenal rebuilt, now we are back to fighting for 4th.

We certainly need to see more progress that we have done up to now, unless we are going to accept that we can never again challenge for the title, and that we are just a cup team.

For all Lando's pontification thats all we have been under Rafa...... a good cup side. Maybe thats the limits of our ambitions now, I just hope not.

I certainly think our team is better than that, and certainly better than our current position and if Rafa can't get the team to start to play to its potential maybe someone else can.

One should seriously start to ask questions when we are fighting with the likes of Everton, Villa and Man City for position (ALL WHO HAVE SPENT CONSIDERABLY LESS THAN US ) rather than competing with the big 3.

But we shouldn't question Rafa because Rafa loves Liverpool. What a load of boll0cks. Does he love Liverpool any more than Evans or Thompson or all the kids that every season we move on because they are not good enough? Maybe we should just pick the team on who loves Liverpool the most?

Maybe I could play striker then

Rafa has to shape up or ship out, and if he cant deliver we have to look elsewhere. I hope he shapes up gets us playing to our potential and we can put all this cr@p behind us, but if he can't he's gotta go. We need to see more evidence of actual progress.

I understand the frustration Saint, but when we stand back and assess, isn't it clear that this year was the first year under Rafa that we were actually prepared to launch an assault on the League? Ore did you think that every year we had the resources to challenge?

I don't want to make excuses for this season, but its clear to me that all the off field drama must have contributed to poor displays. Who knows without all the cr@p we may still be as bad, but commonsense would indicate otherwise. Thats why i cannot understand the eagerness to dump Rafa on the back of this year.

by **maguskwt** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:35 pm

tel wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
tel wrote:
The Manhattan Project wrote:Maybe he took off Gerrard because Gerrard, being an anti-Toffee run-over-hot-coals-for-Liverpool player, may have got a little carried away at a critical point where cooler heads may have been needed?

Maybe.

Was he playing well? Did he change the game for us?

He is the only manager in the world that would have subbed Gerrard that day.

Because he's lost it Big time

You really are a prat, aren't you?

Ever considered the possibility that what you've just said there PROVES Rafa is better than any other coach in the World, as he has the intelligence and bottle to make the big decisions?

Dear oh dear.

Too bad he didnt sub Gerrard in Instanbul because he was leaving loads of space in the first half which enabled Kaka to run riot.

Best coach in the world that cant keep a title challenge running past xmas FFS 4 years in a row.

Every cup that Rafa has won was won single handedly off Steven Gerrard's boot, not Rafa's managerial superiority.

CL final and FA Cup final.

this is one of the most non-sensical statement i've read on here...

all you rafa-doubters know this... you will be happy and full of hope when rafa leaves and another manager comes in... but what if that manager fails to make a challenge for the league and at the same time cannot even cut it in the CL... what if we are back to the level of challenging just the UEFA cup and winning league cups instead of CL and FA Cups...because it is very possible... Gerard Houllier was a respectable manager but he couldn't cut it in the CL and couldn't challenge for the league either...

and the reason is this... our club has been lagging behind for decades and it is foolish to think that ANY manager can come in and win the league in 3-4 years given our financial condition and the draw power for talents in combination with our rivals financial dominance... like it or not the best available talents are more interested in going to the mancs, arsenal, and now chelsea before they consider us... (except for very rare exceptions like torres)...

it is also foolish to think that our current squad is as good as the manc's or arsenal's or chelsea... the mancs had been out of form lately but been winning games purel because of individual talent...

Rafa is a top world class manager and he needs to be given more time... I still believe he's the right person to give us the league title... support him and give him what he deserves, which is till the end of his contract... unfortunately it is not really up to us to decide whether he goes or not... it is up to our loser owners... and this is making me sad...

by **mistyred** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:52 pm

The Bottom line is for as long as i can remember the League is what counts the most to Liverpool Football
Club! Yes europe is nice there's no denying that, But in 3yrs time when those shower of Shi.ts the Mancs
have over taken our proud league record and everybody from under which ever rock they decide to crawl from is taking the absolute berties and commenting on how since the day's when the club took pride in itself and won the League to make the people of Liverpool happy when many had nothing to look forward too, (Shankley's words), will the fact we have 3 more European cups than the Mancs mean anything? Only to the stubbon supporters that in their heart of hearts know we as a club f@cked up big time but don't want to admit it

by **Owzat** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:12 pm

Toffeehater wrote:Next season if rafa is given the funds lets say abt 60 million , and he does not perfom , then ...

Give him £60m and you'll have the ever optimists saying the team needs a season to bed. And then if he spends another £60m the following season the team will need another season to bed and so on and so on and so on.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:17 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

Maybe the one bad year and out bit is wrong, but the idea of whether we have progressed or not under Rafa is a sound arguement.

We were a good cup side that struggled to make the top 4 every season before Rafa. We are a good cup side now thats struggling to make the top 4 under Rafa. We had a brief period
of finishing third while Arsenal rebuilt, now we are back to fighting for 4th.

We certainly need to see more progress that we have done up to now, unless we are going to accept that we can never again challenge for the title, and that we are just a cup team.

For all Lando's pontification thats all we have been under Rafa...... a good cup side. Maybe thats the limits of our ambitions now, I just hope not.

I certainly think our team is better than that, and certainly better than our current position and if Rafa can't get the team to start to play to its potential maybe someone else can.

One should seriously start to ask questions when we are fighting with the likes of Everton, Villa and Man City for position (ALL WHO HAVE SPENT CONSIDERABLY LESS THAN US ) rather than competing with the big 3.

But we shouldn't question Rafa because Rafa loves Liverpool. What a load of boll0cks. Does he love Liverpool any more than Evans or Thompson or all the kids that every season we move on because they are not good enough? Maybe we should just pick the team on who loves Liverpool the most?

Maybe I could play striker then

Rafa has to shape up or ship out, and if he cant deliver we have to look elsewhere. I hope he shapes up gets us playing to our potential and we can put all this cr@p behind us, but if he can't he's gotta go. We need to see more evidence of actual progress.

I understand the frustration Saint, but when we stand back and assess, isn't it clear that this year was the first year under Rafa that we were actually prepared to launch an assault on the League? Ore did you think that every year we had the resources to challenge?

I don't want to make excuses for this season, but its clear to me that all the off field drama must have contributed to poor displays. Who knows without all the cr@p we may still be as bad, but commonsense would indicate otherwise. Thats why i cannot understand the eagerness to dump Rafa on the back of this year.

Rafa's second season we got 82points and finished third (a point off second), last season we got 68 points and finished third (2 goals off 4th place), this season we will get between 68 -74 points I would think. To me thats not progress mate, or at least not much progress, especially considering the amount of money we have spent.

I don't want us to be a team that sees 4th place and a good cup run as success. I think we are better than that, I think this team is better than that!

I am sure the off field dramas have contributed to our poor run of form, but surely thats part of the managers job, to try to ensure the players he puts out on the field are focused on the job in hand?

I honestly don't want Rafa to fail I would love it if we go on a great run to the end of the season win a cup and finish with 78 points or so.

The problem for me is I look at our team and I think there is so much more to offer than we are seeing week in week out. I don't believe he is getting the best out of the players or the team and even before all the trouble started we were struggling in matches (Marseille being a prime example)

You can blame the players as Lando does, or you can say Rafa trains them, picks the team and the formation and bears the responsibility when things go wrong, just as he gets the plaudits when things go right.

I admit I have no idea whats gone so badly wrong , so I can't say its because Rafa has done this or that wrong, but I honestly believe we are a much better team than we are showing at the moment. We are certainly good enough to be challenging for the title rather than fighting with little clubs for 4th place.

Any club or team can make excuses for there performances, but its the teams that overcome their problems that win titles. Chelsea have had a change of manager, Arsenal have lost a number of their very best players , the mancs have had to cope without a genuine striker.

Do you honestly believe that no other manager could have got us more than 68 points last season, or more than 40 points this season?

by **maguskwt** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:23 pm

Owzat wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:Next season if rafa is given the funds lets say abt 60 million , and he does not perfom , then ...

Give him £60m and you'll have the ever optimists saying the team needs a season to bed. And then if he spends another £60m the following season the team will need another season to bed and so on and so on and so on.

no... if rafa gets 60 million next season, I'm sure we will be up there challenging...and if the team is disappointing again then i would be prepared to blame it all on rafa... but not now... our squad is about 2 players away from becoming a title challenging squad and 60 million should do the trick... the truth is though rafa never had 60 million net to spend each...

by **heimdall** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:21 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:Next season if rafa is given the funds lets say abt 60 million , and he does not perfom , then ...

Give him £60m and you'll have the ever optimists saying the team needs a season to bed. And then if he spends another £60m the following season the team will need another season to bed and so on and so on and so on.

no... if rafa gets 60 million next season, I'm sure we will be up there challenging...and if the team is disappointing again then i would be prepared to blame it all on rafa... but not now... our squad is about 2 players away from becoming a title challenging squad and 60 million should do the trick... the truth is though rafa never had 60 million net to spend each...

Yes but you miss the bloody point don't you, not only are we not challenging the top three we are actually battling with teams 4-8 and they have most definitely not spent as much as we have, so what is your excuse for that then???

What will it take for you guys to realise that Rafa really isn't so special, I don't give a cr@p what he did in Spain and whilst I will openly admit he is a very good manger for the champions league he has proven over 4 years that he hasn't got a clue how to win the league due to his constant over rotation and poor team selections, especially against "weaker" opposition, although a win against the top three would be a nice change as well.

So no manager can win in his first season, well how about Jose, I seem to recall him winning in his first 2 seasons, and Wenger won for Arsenal fairly sharpish as well. Rafa hasn't got it, he's too arrogant and desperately needs an assistant but his last assistant and friend turned his back on him, what a guy he must be!!

Cue Lando will a well balanced counter argument :laugh:

by **redtrader74** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:05 pm

Do you honestly believe that no other manager could have got us more than 68 points last season, or more than 40 points this season?

Saint

Of course there are managers out there who possibly could have got more than 68 points last year, but i doubt they would have also engineered a CL final aswell.

40 points this season is cr@p. Without doubt the sqaud is better than that, and there has been a blind spot on Kuyt, maybe we don't have that level of understanding.

To simply pass the recent goings on at the Club as issues that a manager should contend with, or that 'its management to make sure the players are focussed on the game' is pushing the parameters of Football management a little far.

This mess has not been about an unruly player, a sex scandal etc. This has been about the future of the Club, the erosion of power from the manager and his actual dismissal, that has to affect the performances of all involved. Or not?

All i'm suggesting is that is it too far a stretch to think that on footballing issues we were ready and prepared to contend, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath the manager? because if they approached Klinsmann in November, there must have been problems before that.

by **Kash_Mountain** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:04 pm

Number 9 wrote:
Kash_Mountain wrote:
Ciggy wrote:Rafa is out of our hands now, like the club is.

He cant stay under Hicks & G, he will go in the summer if they are still incharge, if we go out the CL they will sack him, if we dont qualify for the CL they will sack him.

The man cannot continue to work for employers who are looking to replace him.

He can walk and still get his payoff due to them admitting they spoke to another manager about his job, his wife is a lawyer she will have sussed what rights he has.

The managers union has been intouch with him.
If I was him I wouldnt stay either the way he has been treated, plus he will have feck all to spend in the summer anyway.

Sick to the back teeth with these two (more so with Hicks), Gillette seems to be the better one!!!

It's just to despressing. Something has to be done NOW, but what (maybe mass protest, don't attend the games), is the 64mil pound question.

I don't see anyone beteer then Rafa at the moment. If he was to leave, we're back at square one. Complete rebuild with a new manager and more waiting for the EPL title. This cannot happen. F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K.

Make no mistake mate,G&H are as bad as eachother..thick as thieves,have no doubt.

Hicks knows all to well the fans hate his lying scheming guts.Just because Gilette is staying quiet at the minute does not mean he is any better.

Maybe there is a reason for him saying nothing.They know we have sussed them out,if G says nothing that may just endear him to the fans a litlle more,See past it!..........Dont fall for it.They are in it together.

To think one is any better than the other is a major misjudgement in my opinion.

I only said Gillette seemed to be the better one because of a couple of things I was reading about him, but at the end of the day I don't want either of them at our club.

I know all to well that Gillette i(also slimey) s staying quite so that Hicks gets all of the fans anger expressed at him. Both need to be brough out of their ownship ASAP.

In todays paper it mentions that our club have agreed personal terms with Mascher and expect conclude the deal this week. However i'm sure everyone knows it but it's been disclosed that Liverpool FC's entire expected profits for 2007 will need to meet the £30mil interest payments created by last weeks £350mil debt refinancing deal. So what about money for new purchases in the summer, probably won't have dim.

DIC we need you.

by **puroresu** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:50 pm

Kash_Mountain wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
Kash_Mountain wrote:
Ciggy wrote:Rafa is out of our hands now, like the club is.

He cant stay under Hicks & G, he will go in the summer if they are still incharge, if we go out the CL they will sack him, if we dont qualify for the CL they will sack him.

The man cannot continue to work for employers who are looking to replace him.

He can walk and still get his payoff due to them admitting they spoke to another manager about his job, his wife is a lawyer she will have sussed what rights he has.

The managers union has been intouch with him.
If I was him I wouldnt stay either the way he has been treated, plus he will have feck all to spend in the summer anyway.

Sick to the back teeth with these two (more so with Hicks), Gillette seems to be the better one!!!

It's just to despressing. Something has to be done NOW, but what (maybe mass protest, don't attend the games), is the 64mil pound question.

I don't see anyone beteer then Rafa at the moment. If he was to leave, we're back at square one. Complete rebuild with a new manager and more waiting for the EPL title. This cannot happen. F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K.

Make no mistake mate,G&H are as bad as eachother..thick as thieves,have no doubt.

Hicks knows all to well the fans hate his lying scheming guts.Just because Gilette is staying quiet at the minute does not mean he is any better.

Maybe there is a reason for him saying nothing.They know we have sussed them out,if G says nothing that may just endear him to the fans a litlle more,See past it!..........Dont fall for it.They are in it together.

To think one is any better than the other is a major misjudgement in my opinion.

I only said Gillette seemed to be the better one because of a couple of things I was reading about him, but at the end of the day I don't want either of them at our club.

I know all to well that Gillette i(also slimey) s staying quite so that Hicks gets all of the fans anger expressed at him. Both need to be brough out of their ownship ASAP.

In todays paper it mentions that our club have agreed personal terms with Mascher and expect conclude the deal this week. However i'm sure everyone knows it but it's been disclosed that Liverpool FC's entire expected profits for 2007 will need to meet the £30mil interest payments created by last weeks £350mil debt refinancing deal. So what about money for new purchases in the summer, probably won't have dim.

DIC we need you.

I do find it funny that DIC are now seen as the Saviour . Nobody even knows DIC's plans or how much money there would be. I aint no fan of the Yanks but I do think people are going overboard with the 'DIC come save us' talk. Blame Moore's and Parry for this mess. They could of sold to DIC but chose not to. You reap what u sow and all that.

by **zarababe** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:42 pm

Rafa Benitez must stay to win the title - He'll win it for us I have no doubts.

And Lando - star man fella - we'll proove nope, Rafa will prove these wrong

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