Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:19 pm

Thats what is getting on my nerves at the moment Mick, rather than looking at our present situation and trying to assess our success or failure, too many seem to be trying to justify our position by denegrating our past. "It took Shankly 7 years to win the league", "Rafa had nothing when he started" etc etc. Rather than looking at what we set out to achieve this season, what we thought they could achieve this season and whether we will achieve our goals. I think most including Leon and Sabre expected a title challenge this season, in fact I seem to remember Sabre saying if we don't make a significant challenge(improvement) he was willing to say that Rafa should go (?)

While I agree with Leon that the seasons only half over and there is still time to finish only about 6 points or so behind the eventual winners (mancs

) that doesn't necessarily mean that we have actually challenged.

In all likelyhood if we manage to get past Inter our league form will drop through the floor again anyway. As minds turn towards European glory and 4th place in the league becomes more and more acceptable.

by **zarababe** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:26 pm

What did you lot really expect this season?

Getting close to the league was my hope - and that is still not impossible.

Finding reasons to fault the Rafa's CL record - makes no sense to me

During their Tenures Wenger and Fergie have made one final each and taken a few good years to secure their first titles - that all counts I'm afraid when you consdier the cr.ap the boss inherited

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:30 pm

zarababe wrote:What did you lot really expect this season?

Getting close to the league was my hope - and that is still not impossible.

Finding reasons to fault the Rafa's CL record - makes no sense to me During their Tenures Wenger and Fergie have made one final each and taken a few good years to secure their first titles - that all counts I'm afraid when you consdier the cr.ap the boss inherited

He won the CL with a team made up mainly of the cr@p he inherited, something that he has failed to do since, does that then mean that the players he has bought are worse than the cr@p he inherited?....... thought not

by **Sabre** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:37 pm

No, Saint, I never said Rafa should go if we didn't challengue for the league, don't bother to find it

I did say though, to bigmick, that if that happened, I'd consider my rotation war in newkit lost and admit it hasn't worked. Even if I think there are other reasons, it's fair to admit something doesn't work if it actually the results are not seen.

I also said that, this year, we have a deep squad, and we should be closer to the title. And thus, if we fail for that, and unlike last season, we'd be talking about a hugely dissapointing season.

Now, in my book, a hugely dissapointing season is not enough to sack Rafa. Not because he's loved, but because his record and credit, which, correct me if I'm wrong, you've admitted it's been fairly good.

If the first year you win the CL -- and it's important because the fans sing we've won it five times
If in the second you win the FA
In the third you reach CL final -- many top teams would consider their season saved that way

Sacking Rafa in the first really dissapointing season would be harsh considered his record.

Now, another thing that I admitted, is that if we failed blatantly, serious questions should be asked. The serious question is the one BM comments, whether Rafa can bring us the league or not.

If someone thinks that he can't under this methods, then the correct thing to do is to sack him, end of. But as much as my appreciated Bigmick sounds convincing and explains himself as an open book (very well) I'm not convinced of that.

Of course, if the next season you have yet another failure, then you could be more certain of that. But IMHO, Rafa has earned enough credit to deserve a bad season. Even if we don't reach the CL final this year. Reaching it is more difficult than what it seems as of late, mind you. A top team can be 8 years in a row without a CL final.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:43 pm

Sabre wrote:No, Saint, I never said Rafa should go if we didn't challengue for the league, don't bother to find it

I did say though, to bigmick, that if that happened, I'd consider my rotation war in newkit lost and admit it hasn't worked. Even if I think there are other reasons, it's fair to admit something doesn't work if it actually the results are not seen.

I also said that, this year, we had a deep squad, and we should be closer to the title. And thus, if we fail for that, and unlike last season, we'd be talking about a hugely dissapointing season.

Now, in my book, a hugely dissapointing season is not enough to sack Rafa. Not because he's loved, but because his record and credit, which, correct me if I'm wrong, you've admitted it's been fairly good.

If the first year you win the CL -- and it's important because the fans sing we've won it five times
If in the seconf you win the FA
In the third you reach CL final -- many top teams would consider their season saved that way

Sacking Rafa in the first really dissapointing season would be harsh considered his record.

Now, another thing that I admitted, is that if we failed blatantly, serious questions should be asked. The serious question is the one BM comments, whether Rafa can bring us the league or not.

If, someone, thinks that he can't under this methods, then the correct thing to do is to sack him, end of. But as much as my appreciated Bigmick sounds convincing and explains himself as an open book (very well) I'm not convinced of that.

Of course, if the next season you have yet another failure, then you could be more certain of that. But IMHO, Rafa has earned enough credit to deserve a bad season. Even if we don't reach the CL final this year. Reaching it is more difficult than what it seems as of late, mind you. A top team can be 8 years in a row without a CL final.

Sorry mate, I thought you said Rafa should go. If you say you didn't thats good enough for me. Sorry again

by **Sabre** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:45 pm

Nope, but it may be perfectly possible that with my cráp english said something that could be understood that way.

I we're 15 points off, I'll talk about dissapointment, mistakes, and things to improve. I'm not that happy clappy.

No worries

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:55 pm

My view is any final (not necessarily winning) and he should be given more time irrespective of points or position. If we don't get the cup runs, then its all about position and points difference. More than 12 points off the top and serious questions need to be asked. Failure to get top four and I think he will be gone no matter what any of us thinks.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:29 pm

No Sabes is right, he never said that rafa should go he merely said if we didn't launch a challenge (about eight points or so behind as I remember) then it would be fair to conclude that rotation hasn't so far worked. I don't think he committed himself to not trying another season of "Rafa style" either (although I might be wrong), I think he would probably be in what will become the majority as the season goes on, those who believe that it probably would work if we had better players to rotate.

He is also probably right in that Rafa has done enough to forgive a really poor season, and also right in saying if it does come to pass it would be his first. I believe this too, Rafa deserves another go. I can't say the same for the selectorial system nor the squad building philosophy though, I've seen enough of those already to be absolutely convinced they'll never work. It's a bit like changing the wingers and wondering if Kuyt will top the scoring charts, it ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.

Rafa can stay by all means, but the uber-rotation and attempts to build two teams ought to go I reckon.

by **tel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:36 pm

Sabre wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Dundalk wrote:4. Make tactical changes. Whether it’s key matches against the likes of Arsenal and Man United or against lesser opposition such as Wigan, Derby or Reading, Rafa Benitez’s squad has been outplayed and/or outwitted on too many occasions recently. Mourinho will bring a new lease of life to the Liverpool squad with fresh tactical ideas.

what, like playing centre back's upfront? i don't get this "mourinho is a tactical genius" nonsense. he's been well and truly found out in three semi finals against us for a start.

anyway, the guy's nailed on for barcelona next season imo. can't see rijkaard lasting beyond the summer.

Yeah plan B for Maureen was Robert Huth up front with Charlie Hughes long ball punts. Oh and his substituting can hardly be called inspired, ffs he had £20m players sitting on the bench.

I'll let him have the motivator tag, he seemed to have that ability in bundles, but whether his brand would work long term or wear thin over time has yet to be seen.

Pah, you're too generous conceding him the motivator tag

He's a whip motivator. If I point to you with a gun, you'll be very motivated to obbey my commands.

Mourinho has slagged off players in after match press. In my book, you don't slag off the players, because those are the ones that are going to give you glory. Mourinho motivated with the whip, but in the long term that leads to a unsettled dressroom and he's had some in that dressroom.

Is that why Drogba is leaving at the end of the season? Because Mourinho whipped him too many times

Mind you, both Terry and Lampard recommended Mourinho for the England job. And incidentally, both these gimps were fringe players before Mourinho arrived at Chelsea.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:44 pm

bigmick wrote:No Sabes is right, he never said that rafa should go he merely said if we didn't launch a challenge (about eight points or so behind as I remember) then it would be fair to conclude that rotation hasn't so far worked. I don't think he committed himself to not trying another season of "Rafa style" either (although I might be wrong), I think he would probably be in what will become the majority as the season goes on, those who believe that it probably would work if we had better players to rotate.

He is also probably right in that Rafa has done enough to forgive a really poor season, and also right in saying if it does come to pass it would be his first. I believe this too, Rafa deserves another go. I can't say the same for the selectorial system nor the squad building philosophy though, I've seen enough of those already to be absolutely convinced they'll never work. It's a bit like changing the wingers and wondering if Kuyt will top the scoring charts, it ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.

Rafa can stay by all means, but the uber-rotation and attempts to build two teams ought to go I reckon.

We all know that just isn't going to happen Mick. If you want Rafa, you have to accept rotation and with it a large squad. The only area I think we may see less change, is I think he may stick to a settled formation once he has the players he wants.

I don't believe in forgiving poor seasons (unless there are genuine reasons ie rebuilding, and personally I don't think he has any excuses up to now) I think a cup final or 6 points off the top is NOT a poor season. Not getting a good cup run and finishing outside the top 4 would be a poor season, so unless there are genuine reasons for failure I would probably be voting thumbs down.

by **tel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:53 pm

bigmick wrote:No Sabes is right, he never said that rafa should go he merely said if we didn't launch a challenge (about eight points or so behind as I remember) then it would be fair to conclude that rotation hasn't so far worked. I don't think he committed himself to not trying another season of "Rafa style" either (although I might be wrong), I think he would probably be in what will become the majority as the season goes on, those who believe that it probably would work if we had better players to rotate.

He is also probably right in that Rafa has done enough to forgive a really poor season, and also right in saying if it does come to pass it would be his first. I believe this too, Rafa deserves another go. I can't say the same for the selectorial system nor the squad building philosophy though, I've seen enough of those already to be absolutely convinced they'll never work. It's a bit like changing the wingers and wondering if Kuyt will top the scoring charts, it ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.

Rafa can stay by all means, but the uber-rotation and attempts to build two teams ought to go I reckon.

Fair comment.

A less obstintate (and humble) Rafa version of Rafa would be welcomed by all, and I suspect the dispute with the owners (from their end) has been more about do your job properly and stop mucking about, because if we need to, we can sack you, than anything more immediate.

They're just letting him that he's the manager, he works for them, if they need to their not afraid to look elsewhere, and the club will go on without him.

I'm not a fan of Parry, but like a lot of other supporters on here, he's been around when the Paisleys and the Dalglishes were around, and he knows when a manager is able to do the business or not. And like a lot of us, I'm not sure he's any less confused about Rafa's team selection on occasions and faith in certain players.

by **NANNY RED** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:05 am

Good little article by Carra the voice of reason

Players unaffected by Rafa ruckus - Carragher

Liverpool's Jamie Carragher insists that the continued speculation over the future of boss Rafael Benitez is not unsettling the players.

And the 29 year-old local hero maintains that new owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett should not have to keep saying 'everything is fine, every few minutes' just to answer speculation.

Carragher said: 'The situation over the manager doesn't affect me, it doesn't affect the other players, we get paid to play football and that is what we have to do.

'Our objective is to improve on the way we have played in the last few weeks, we should not be getting involved in things like that off the field, we have got to look after ourselves.

'We have to stick together. At the moment we are getting a lot of criticism from a lot of people, but we must rally round, get together, and prove a few things out on the pitch.

'The last few weeks have not gone as well as well all would have liked but the main thing is what goes on out on the pitch, not off it.

'We should do what we are paid to do. We should concentrate on that.'

Benitez has been the centre of another week of extraordinary rumour and speculation after media headlines ahead of last Sunday's FA Cup draw at cash-strapped Luton suggested he knew he would be sacked in the summer.

The Spaniard has since denied in the local Liverpool media that he has ever briefed journalists 'off the record' that he anticipated the axe, as was implied.

That reaction from Benitez only came after it became clear that Hicks and Gillett expressed astonishment from New York - ahead of a key Liverpool board meeting - that their manager had seemingly rocked the boat yet again.

It was also suggested that the Reds players at Kenilworth Road had become unsettled by the continued controversy surrounding their manager.

And the fact that Hicks and Gillett have steadfastly not given Benitez a vote of confidence has also become a growing concern.

But Carragher, who was captain in the 1-1 draw at Luton, said in an interview on Sky Sports: 'It's up to the owners what they say about the manager, it is nothing to do with me what goes on between the manager and the owners.

'A few months ago they said everything was fine, I don't think they should be coming out every few minutes answering speculation.

'As for us we are here to play football, that's our job and the rest is nothing to do with us.'

Benitez upset the American owners last year by being critical of the club's transfer funds and policy, and when Hicks and Gillett believed that the Spaniard was suggesting he was a 'lame duck' manager, questions were asked again.

But Carragher refused to be drawn into the debate, and preferred to concentrate on Liverpool's task for the rest of a disjointed campaign, with Saturday's trip to Middlesbrough another 'must-win' game for the Merseysiders if they want to stay in contact with the Premier League leaders.

Carragher was predictably upbeat, claiming: 'We are still in the FA Cup and we still have a really big tie with Inter Milan soon in the Champions League, and everyone knows how good we can be in that competition.

'We are disappointed we have fallen away a little in the Premier League but we are still only halfway through so there's a long way to go even it is fair to say we are outsiders now.

'We still want to make a challenge, but we are not kidding anyone because we know it will be difficult. It's not just the points difference but there are three other big teams ahead of us at the moment.

'There is no point throwing the towel in, we will just keep going.'

Liverpool hope to unveil new defender Martin Skrtel, a £6.5million signing from Zenit St Petersburg tomorrow.

Chief executive Rick Parry, who has just returned from the New York meeting, held final discussions with the Slovakian international's representative today.

And it also seems likely that midfielder Mohamed Sissoko is on the brink of a £10million move to Juventus, which will give Benitez extra funds to try to complete the permanent deal for Javier Mascherano.

Sissoko has fallen out of favour at Anfield, and told Radio Montecarlo: 'I'm still a Liverpool player, but I expect a big announcement in the next few days.

'My agent, Juve and Liverpool are working on my departure. Everyone is asking me whether I have already signed. I haven't yet but my move to Juventus is very close.

'I'm expecting the good news any moment now, but I'm enthusiastic about beginning a new adventure in Italy with the Bianconeri.'

Sissoko is expected to leave on a loan deal, with Juve being given the option to buy him at the end of the season.

by **holylamb2006** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:29 am

Sissoko is expected to leave on a loan deal

AHHH thats wat i dont want to hear

by **zarababe** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:09 pm

Klinsmann's gonna be managing Bayern Munich - this confirms further the conspiracy against Rafa by the media - and interesting Carra says nothing in support of the manager aka Torres - stark contrast ay !

by **skatesy** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:04 pm

Bundesliga - Bayern install Klinsmann

Eurosport - Fri, 11 Jan 11:52:00 2008

Bayern Munich have confirmed Juergen Klinsmann will be their new coach from July this year.

The former coach of the German national side will take over from current boss Ottmar Hitzfeld, who has already announced his decision to step down at the end of this season.

Klinsmann, 43, took Germany to third place in the 2006 World Cup before resigning immediately after the tournament. He has not held a coaching position since.

The former Tottenham striker has never coached at club level before, although he has been linked with a number of domestic jobs in the past, most recently the vacant position at Newcastle and the Liverpool job.

He was also touted to take over the US national side last year as well as being lined up as a possible replacement for Steve McClaren in the England post.

Klinsmann is well-known to Bayern as he enjoyed a successful spell as a player there between 1995 and 1997, when he won the Bundesliga and the UEFA Cup.

He has also made 108 appearances for his country and led them to success at Euro 98.

"For me personally it's a surprise," said Joachim Loew, who took over as national team coach after acting as Klinsmann's right-hand man during his two-year spell in charge.

"But after talking to him recently I did have the feeling he'd be back on a coaching bench soon," Loew added. "He's a real asset to German football."

There is the media for you. It is all a bunch of BS. Klinsmann was never coming to Liverpool.

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