Liverpool FC Forum

by **zarababe** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:15 pm

things are calm round here now - I wonder why

Just to poke me nose in on the this very adult discussion - lets not forget who we have beaten to win and get to the CL final: not exactly easy games ay!

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:22 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Our first european cup win we played
1st round Crusaders
2nd round Trabzonspor
quarters St Etienne
semi FC Zurich
Final Borussia Moenchengladbach.

Not the hardest campaign we've ever had even thought the oppo were all "champions"

Our last final we played -

Maccabi Haifa
PSV Eindhoven
Galatasaray
Bordeaux

Just to qualify for the knockout stages Woof. Not exactly tough nuts. Thats the point I am making you play a lot of cr@p now BEFORE you get to the good teams.

Before you may have played one or two.

Remember St Etienne where supposedly the best team in Europe and favourites.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:27 pm

s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:I wouldn't expect to sign anything before the medical tests. If the Americans were appearing to sign some formality now, or Rick Parry for that matter, the journos would stress that Rafa has no authority to finnish deals.

He supposedly passed his medical a couple of days ago Sabre?

8.1.08 Skrtel passes Anfield medical

Liverpool are on the verge of signing the most expensive defender in their history after Martin Skrtel passed a medical.

The Slovakia international will complete his £6.5million move from Zenit St Petersburg as soon as Liverpool's owners rubber-stamp the deal as he has already agreed personal terms.

Skrtel, who was last in Liverpool in early December to play for Zenit against Everton in the UEFA Cup, is rated as one of the most promising young defenders in Europe.

The deal will mark the end of Rafael Benitez's search for a new centre-half that began with the unsuccessful pursuit of Gabriel Heinze and which became increasingly urgent in recent weeks following injuries to both Daniel Agger and Sami Hyypia.

Skrtel, 23, has 15 caps and joined Zenit in 2004, going on to make more than 100 appearances in the Russian league.

Skysports.com understands Liverpool are on the verge of signing Slovakian defender Martin Skrtel.

The Zenit St Petersburg centre-back has been in talks with Liverpool this week and undergone a medical after the English titans agreed a fee with the Russian outfit.

Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez has been keen to bolster his defensive options and has made Skrtel his top target.

Skrtel's agent Karol Csonto has confirmed the player has passed a medical and that a deal is close to completion.

"Everything is fine, we have a meeting with Rick Parry this afternoon to finalise everything," Csonto told skysports.com

"Martin has passed his medical and the contract is ready to sign.

"We now just wait for Liverpool to announce the details."

Sounds like its almost all done and dusted now, just waiting of "quick Rick" to put the stamp on it.

by **Sabre** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:28 pm

s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:Saint would some of those games have been in the UEFA cup?

No idea mate, they arn't my stats. To qualify for the UEFA CUP (FAIRS CUP )YOU HAD TO COME SECOND, so my argument still stands up mate.

Yes but the champions one year must not be necessarily the best team next season.

Yesteryear for instance, Manchester United that team that reached the semifinals, was the best of the best according to some english press. But Chelsea was the current champion, so sometimes, by playing the champions you avoided actually the best team of the country at the moment -- fact.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:34 pm

Sabre wrote:
s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:Saint would some of those games have been in the UEFA cup?

No idea mate, they arn't my stats. To qualify for the UEFA CUP (FAIRS CUP )YOU HAD TO COME SECOND, so my argument still stands up mate.

Yes but the champions one year must not be necessarily the best team next season.

Yesteryear for instance, Manchester United that team that reached the semifinals, was the best of the best according to some english press. But Chelsea was the current champion, so sometimes, by playing the champions you avoided actually the best team of the country at the moment -- fact.

The point is they HAD TO BE CHAMPIONS though Sabre, ffs EVERTON qualified for the CL

by **stmichael** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:43 pm

RUSHIE#9 wrote:I don't like the sound of these 'reports' of bringing this Miskelly guy on board. The old saying of 'too many cooks spoil the broth' comes to mind.
We've already heard rumours that G&H are having fallings out over the running of the club and to bring in a possible third person wanting a say on running the club (if that's the way they are going with that story) just sets the alarm bells ringing with me.
They really need to come clean and say, 'There are no financing problems. We will deliver a stadium without putting ridiculous financial burdens on the club', or just admit that they've been bullshitting us all along and they can't afford any of what they promised and are fecking off into the sunset to let someone else with the funds do a better job. Whichever it is this REALLY needs sorting now cos it's starting to make the club a laughing stock and more seriously it's starting to affect affairs on the pitch as well.

I'm not sure that the yanks are definitely going to sell, but it certainly looks like they're thinking seriously about it. I'm also not sure they still want to sack Rafa. I'm quite sure there was a moment or two back there when they wanted to, but their brains stopped them. Sacking managers costs money, and would also commit them to 1-2 years of further uncertainty, making it harder to sell the club if they wanted.

by **woof woof !** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:46 pm

Thats the point I am making you play a lot of cr@p now BEFORE you get to the good teams.

I think the same could be said about the old European Cup Saint.

'78
1st round Bye
2nd round Dynamo Dresden

quarters Benfica
semis Borussia M'gladach
final Brugges

'81
1st round Oulu
2nd round Aberdeen

quarters CSKA
semis Bayern
Final Real Madrid

'84
1st round Odense
2nd round Athletico Bilbao

quarters Benfica
semis Dinamo Bucharest
final Roma

I think the hardest thing about winning the comp back then was (as has been said) qualifying for it. When it comes to the competition proper I think the CL is a tougher test.

by **JohnBull** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:47 pm

As someone who was there throughout the Shanks and Paisley years I just thought I'd put in my twopenneth worth into what's a pretty stupid argument.

The old EUFA cup was full of teams that had reached 2nd or 3rd places in their own league. Often these were the up and coming sides who were often top of their league by the time the following seasons European Cup came along. The champions, as often happens, had reached their peak in winning their leagues and were not the same team in the European cup.

I always thought that the old EUFA cup was always a tougher prospect than the European Cup as you were confronted with teams hungry for success and who were on their way up.

Saying that, Rome was just as good as being there for each of my six kids births and the grin lasted longer.

Shanks should have won the EC when we robbed at Inter Milan by the most corrupt refereeing performances I've ever seen, including the African Nations Cups and the Far East farces. The friggin Ref even went on holiday with the Inter squad after the game. The performance by the Italian officials/police/players/management that night was unbelievable.

Istambul was a great night but the result was more by luck than judgement (and a brilliant performance by SG). I still feel we threw the rematch away by giving Milan too much respect, something that would never have happened under Shanks or Paisley.

All in all, the Eufa Cup is easier now and the European Cup is harder than the past. Does it matter though ?

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:01 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Thats the point I am making you play a lot of cr@p now BEFORE you get to the good teams.
I think the same could be said about the old European Cup Saint.

'78
1st round Bye
2nd round Dynamo Dresden

quarters Benfica
semis Borussia M'gladach
final Brugges

'81
1st round Oulu
2nd round Aberdeen

quarters CSKA
semis Bayern
Final Real Madrid

'84
1st round Odense
2nd round Athletico Bilbao

quarters Benfica
semis Dinamo Bucharest
final Roma

I think the hardest thing about winning the comp back then was (as has been said) qualifying for it. When it comes to the competition proper I think the CL is a tougher test.

A lot of those teams were very strong AT THAT TIME. Especially the eastern block teams. Aberdeen for example had a very good team at the time (bast@rd Fergie) They beat Real Madrid in the final of the UEFA CUP(?) around the time we played them. They were certainly no pushovers mate.

by **woof woof !** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:02 pm

No it doesn't matter, it's a footy forum , we're just chewin' the fat and no ones that bothered.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:06 pm

woof woof ! wrote:No it doesn't matter, it's a footy forum , we're just chewin' the fat and no ones that bothered.

Hey, I was till you said that! :down:

by **Sabre** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:49 pm

s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:
s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:Saint would some of those games have been in the UEFA cup?

No idea mate, they arn't my stats. To qualify for the UEFA CUP (FAIRS CUP )YOU HAD TO COME SECOND, so my argument still stands up mate.

Yes but the champions one year must not be necessarily the best team next season.

Yesteryear for instance, Manchester United that team that reached the semifinals, was the best of the best according to some english press. But Chelsea was the current champion, so sometimes, by playing the champions you avoided actually the best team of the country at the moment -- fact.

The point is they HAD TO BE CHAMPIONS though Sabre, ffs EVERTON qualified for the CL

Yes I know. You said that to try to say that the stats of Rafa were a bit inflated compared to those of the past right?

As you can see it all depends on how you read the stats or review the past. I may be a biased happy clappy, but the approach of the London press is everything but neutral and unpartial, at least from where I sit. I don't feel síckened when I read Heimdall or Peewee, at least them they want the Liverpool win, but I am síckened when I read all these articles, because it's obvious to me they highlight the negatives.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:10 pm

The European Champions' cup was the forerunner of today's Champions' League but there the similarity ends. The same trophy (replacing a smaller one in the early 1960's) which has been presented to the winners for nearly 40 years is still in place today but for over 35 years the premier European club competition was only for the champions of each country. Real Madrid's early domination (they won the first five tournaments from 1956 until 1960) saw the entry rise from 16 clubs in 1955-56 to 27 in 1959-60.

Against the advice of the Football authorities in England, Manchester United & Wolverhampton Wanderers competed in the early years but by the time Liverpool qualified by winning their 6th First Division championship in 1964, the trophy had become widely-respected and much sought-after throughout the continent.

The club's baptism was gentle enough. They were paired with KR Reykjavik from Iceland in the preliminary round and won both legs comfortably by five goals. Given that the tie had already been won in the away game, a good crowd of just over thirty-two and a half thousand attended Anfield's first European night. But the crowd-figures increased as Liverpool progressed and better opposition were drawn in subsequent rounds - 44,000 against Anderlecht, 48,000 against Cologne and over 54,000 for the visit of the holders Inter-Milan in the semi-final.

The Belgian champions included several of the national side which had just held England to a draw at Wembley but goals from St. John, Hunt and Yeats provided a comfortable lead which was added to by Roger Hunt's last-minute winner in the return game in Brussels three weeks later.

Two goal-less draws with Cologne followed as winter turned into spring but in the days before away goals and penalty shoot-outs a third game was necessary in neutral Rotterdam, although the bulk of the 45,000 crowd had made the much easier journey from Germany. The Reds took a two-goal lead but Cologne hit back to equalise and then had a goal disallowed. With no provision for a 4th match, the tie was bizarrely settled by the toss of a coin. Skipper Ron Yeats called correctly but only after the first 'coin' had stuck in the mud and had to be tossed again! It was a cruel way to go out and a strange way to go through but those were the rules at that time.

Liverpool v Inter Milan 1965 European Cup Semi Final

The semi-final was one of Anfield's greatest-ever nights, coming as it did just three days after Liverpool had won the F.A. Cup for the first time in its long history. Gordon Milne (who missed the final through injury) and Gerry Byrne (injured in the final itself) were sent out to parade the famous trophy before the game and the players took to the field in a cauldron of noise. The Italians seemed unnerved despite their experience and being used to playing in front of hostile crowds. But this was different. They had probably never played in front of a crowd that was so close to the pitch and seemed unprepared for the emotion that greeted the F.A. cup winners.

Roger Hunt's brilliant early volley and a superbly-worked free-kick finished off by Ian Callaghan unnerved them even more but in between those two superb goals an error by Ron Yeats had seen Mazzola strike an equaliser past Tommy Lawrence into the Kop goal. Lawler had a goal disallowed before Ian St. John restored the home side's two-goal advantage a quarter of an hour from the end. But would it be enough?

Inter were experienced European campaigners and were not only defending the trophy they had won by beating Real Madrid in Lisbon the previous year but were also holders of the World Club championship, another trophy they would ultimately successfully defend in 1965. In an extremely hostile atmosphere, all the good work done at Anfield was cancelled out by two controversial refereeing decisions early on in the San Siro.

Having appeared to signal an indirect free-kick on the edge of Liverpool's penalty-area, a goal was allowed to stand despite fierce protests when the kick was curled straight in. Before Liverpool had time to recover from that blow, the aggregate lead had been wiped out. At a time when goalkeepers were usually protected and got most of the 50/50 decisions in their favour, Tommy Lawrence was bouncing the ball on the edge of his area ready for a clearance when it was kicked past him into the net. If you see footage of this game, there is no clear foul on Tommy but if goalkeepers were impeded from distributing the ball, a free-kick was usually given in their favour. Not this time though.

Liverpool tried to recover their composure but their first European campaign ended in bitter disappointment, though there was no dispute about Fachetti's brilliant third goal in the second-half which took the Italians through to the final again, which just happened to be played at their own stadium!

Having failed to retain their domestic crown, Liverpool entered the Cup Winners' cup a year later and again enjoyed a marvellous run - all the way through to the final in fact. Juventus provided very tough opposition in the first round but first-half goals at Anfield from defenders Lawler and Strong overturned the narrow 1-0 defeat in Turin.

Lawler scored twice in the next round against Standard Liege and Peter Thompson adding the third in a 3-1 victory and the second leg was also won in Belgium in the face of extreme provocation on the pitch. A goal down at half-time, the players showed remarkable composure and strikes from the forward pairing of Hunt and St. John early in the second-half paved the way for a comfortable 5-2 aggregate victory.

The quarter-final was not played for another three and a half months and by now more used to the tactics of the European game, Liverpool quietened the crowd in Hungary and took a 0-0 score back to England with them before defeating Honved 2-0 with Chris Lawler again being on the score-sheet.

The two semi-finals with Celtic were played only five days apart yet Liverpool still had to fit a First Division fixture with Stoke City in between the two dates. The Celts came down from the North in their thousands, expecting to see their favourites progress through to the Hampden Park final but a blistering free-kick from Tommy Smith equalised Bobby Lennox's first-leg goal and then Geoff Strong, despite limping severely from an incident earlier in the game, somehow climbed to reach an Ian Callaghan cross and headed it past Ronnie Simpson to put the Reds into the lead on aggregate.

A late Celtic goal was disallowed and caused a bit of crowd trouble with several items (mostly empty bottles!) being thrown onto the pitch by the visiting fans but it was Liverpool who just went through to their first European final. Playing in Glasgow should have been an advantage but atrocious weather plus the fact that many Glaswegians shunned the event once Celtic had been knocked out kept the crowd down to under 42,000 in the vast bowl with enormous terraces that Hampden Park was at the time.
Sigi Held, who would appear later that summer for West Germany in the World Cup final, gave the Germans from Borussia Dortmund the lead but another man who would also appear in that famous Wembley final of 1966, Roger Hunt, equalised midway through the second-half, even though it appeared that Peter Thompson had taken the ball over the goal-line before crossing for Hunt to turn and strike his goal. Coming from behind should have given Liverpool an advantage in extra-time but once again (as in Milan a year previously) Fate conspired to deny them their moment of glory in the most cruel way. Tommy Lawrence came sliding out of his goal to clear but the ball only fell to Libuda about 40 yards out. He tried a speculative lob seeing the opposition goalkeeper stranded and the ball hit the bar before glancing into the net off Ron Yeats who had rushed back trying to clear the danger. That proved to be the winning goal and once again the European season ended in great disappointment. But reaching a semi-final and then a final in the club's first two European campaigns was still a terrific achievement.

For their second crack at the European cup, Liverpool had to face the unknowns from Petrolul Ploiesti in the first round. A 2-0 home win was followed by a 3-1 defeat away. In subsequent years the away goal scored by Hunt would have been enough to see the club through but - as with Cologne two years before - a third game was necessary in neutral Brussels to decide the outcome. Before half-time St. John and Thompson had given Liverpool a lead that they never looked like surrendering.

Dutch champions Ajax were pretty unknown too but they tore Liverpool apart in foggy Amsterdam and carved out a massive 5-1 lead, Liverpool's only success coming in the very last minute from Chris Lawler. The tie was effectively over by half-time with the home side being four goals up and at one stage Bill Shankly even went onto the pitch unnoticed to give some instructions to his players (!) but even his bravado before the second game on Merseyside could not disguise the fact that this had been a severe thrashing against a club that would soon go on to win the Champions' cup for three successive seasons. Hunt scored twice at Anfield but so did a young Johan Cruyff and Liverpool were out.

The great side of the mid-sixties had reached its peak and over the next few years Bill Shankly had to say goodbye to many players who has served him so well during a golden period in the club's history and rebuild for the future. With no more domestic success in the 60's, the club had to content itself with participation in the European Fairs cup, previously the Inter-Cities Fairs cup and subsequently (from 1971) the UEFA cup. There were massive wins against 1860 Munich (8-0 in 1967) and Dundalk (10-0 in 1968) but no repeat of the long runs which the club had enjoyed in its first two years of European competition.

The 1968-69 season was the last one on which a toss of a coin would decide a winner and this time Liverpool were unlucky as they went out to Athletic Bilbao in the first round.

A year later the away-goals rule came into force but many confused Anfield spectators stayed in their places expecting extra-time after very late goals by Alun Evans and Roger Hunt had given Liverpool a dramatic 3-2 win over Vitoria Setubal after falling 2-0 behind and 3-0 on aggegrate. It took a tannoy announcement to confirm that those two away goals were enough to see the Portuguese through after their 1-0 victory in the first leg!

Steve Heighway and John Toshack were in at Liverpool, Roger Hunt had left and soon Ron Yeats and Ian St John would follow

Shankly's new team was taking shape. Although not quite ready yet to make a sustained challenge for the League championship, the club reached the F.A. Cup final in 1971 and also progressed through to the semi-final of the Fairs Cup, the last time that particular trophy would be played for. A stunning strike from Emlyn Hughes in Budapest gave a narrow 2-1 aggregate over Ferencvaros in the first round and some sort of revenge for defeat to the same club in the 1967-68 competition. Hughes also scored against Dinamo Bucharest in the second round before two wins against Hibernian saw Liverpool through to the quarter-final, where they were paired with Bayern Munich. The Bavarians would also soon win the Champions' cup three years running and had many players who would win the World Cup for their country on home soil in 1974. But this was Alun Evans' night. A wonderful hat-trick gave the Reds a clear advantage for the second-leg, for which Shankly gave Ian Ross the specific task of shadowing Franz Beckenbauer in Munich. The under-rated Scotsman did such a good job that he even found time to stroll upfield and put Liverpool in the lead! The game finished one-all and another European semi-final was secured, this time against opponents Liverpool knew only too well.

Liverpool & Leeds United had emerged at much the same time under Bill Shankly and Don Revie respectively. There has been some titanic clashes in the late-60's following Liverpool's F.A. cup win over the Yorkshiremen in 1965 but this time Leeds gained revenge as Billy Bremner headed the only goal of the entire tie in front of over 52,000 spectators at Anfield.

Future star Kevin Keegan arrived in May 1971 and had in the coming years a big influence on Liverpool's European exploits

Back in the Cup Winners' cup in 1971 as beaten F.A. cup finalists to Double-winners Arsenal, Liverpool only lasted until the second round. Victory over Servette Geneva was followed by defeat to a stronger Bayern side, for whom Gerd Muller scored twice in Munich. But success was only just around the corner. The club's ninth season in Europe would at last bring tangible proof of all they had learned in previous years. The players and management were now much more astute about how to play the European game, particularly in the away legs where it was important to quieten the partisan home crowd and then look for a goal on the break.

Eintracht Frankfurt and AEK Athens were beaten comfortably enough in rounds one and two before the club was drawn to play another German team (this time from East Germany), Dynamo Berlin. A goal-less draw away paved the way for a comfortable 3-1 home win. East German opposition also awaited in the quarter finals in the form of Dynamo Dresden and after Brian Hall and Phil Boersma had given the Reds a decent lead from the home leg, Liverpool produced one of their finest away performances to date a fortnight later when Kevin Keegan scored the only goal of a tense match.

An all-English semi-final against holders Tottenham Hotspur followed and Alec Lindsay gave Liverpool a narrow advantage to take down to London for the second game. For 45 minutes everything went according to plan but then Martin Peters scored to make the score level on aggregate. If Liverpool could score though that could be crucial and Steve Heighway obliged with the crucial away goal. A second strike from Peters made the last quarter of an hour extremely tense but the Reds held out to reach their second European final.

Borussia Monchengladbach, a club Liverpool would soon meet again in a more important final, were - along with the Bayern Munich of the same period - one of the best club sides ever to come out of Germany. They had some wonderful players like Gunter Netzer, Jupp Heynckes, Ulrich Stielike, Rainer Bonhof and the brilliant Berti Vogts. The first leg was played at Anfield on the 9th of May at Anfield but monsoon conditions forced the referee to abandon the game after less than half an hour. Liverpool made the immediate decision to allow spectators in for just 10 pence the following night, a decision which Peter Robinson admitted gave him a sleepless night in case it attracted a larger than capacity crowd although in the event the attendance was slightly below that which had turned up for the abandoned game!

Shankly made one crucial change for the re-arranged game. He had spotted a weakness in the Germans' defence and played John Toshack in place of the diminutive Brian Hall. Toshack cause havoc in the Borussia defence and laid on two goals for his strike-partner Kevin Keegan. But Keegan also missed a first-half penalty which would have given Liverpool a surely unassailable lead? Larry Lloyd headed in a corner early in the second-half before Ray Clemence brilliantly saved a penalty from Heynckes. How important that save would turn out to be!

In Germany, Borussia tore Liverpool apart in the first period on a sodden pitch and Heynckes scored twice to leave Liverpool' s hopes in the balance. But the Germans had run themselves into the ground and never posed the same problem in the second-half. But with Liverpool only a goal ahead there was always the danger that a third Monchengladbach goal would force extra-time. Resilient defending throughout the second-half finally brought its reward and the final whistle was greeted with amazing scenes of joy as hundreds of Liverpool fans climbed over the fences to salute their heroes on the pitch. That invasion delayed and spoiled the presentation somewhat as a tired Tommy Smith lifted the huge cup towards the skies but the 'new Liverpool' now had something special to celebrate, its first European trophy to go with the League championship which had been clinched at the end of the previous month.
That meant Liverpool would not be defending their UEFA prize because once again they would be back in the most prestigious competition of all as a new season, 1973-74, dawned.

Bit of history for you

Games
5 - 0 KR Reykjavík
6 - 1 KR Reykjavík
3 - 0 Anderlecht
1 - 0 Anderlecht
0 - 0 Cologne
0 - 0 Cologne
2 - 2 Cologne
3 - 1 Inter Milan
0 - 3 Inter Milan
0 - 1 Juventus
2 - 0 Juventus
3 - 1 Standard Liege
2 - 1 Standard Liege
0 - 0 Honved
2 - 0 Honved
0 - 1 Celtic
2 - 0 Celtic
1 - 2 Dortmund
2 - 0 Petrolul Ploiesti
1 - 3 Petrolul Ploiesti
2 - 0 Petrolul Ploiesti
1 - 5 Ajax
2 - 2 Ajax
2 - 0 Malmo
2 - 1 Malmo
8 - 0 TSV Munich
0 - 1 Ferencvaros
0 - 1 Ferencvaros
1 - 2 Athletic Bilbao
2 - 1 Athletic Bilbao
0 - 1 Vitoria Setubal
3 - 2 Vitoria Setubal
1 - 0 Ferencvaros
3 - 0 Bayern Munich
1 - 1 Bayern Munich
0 - 1 Leeds United
0 - 0 Leeds United
0 - 0 Bayern Munich
1 - 3 Bayern Munich
1 - 0 Tottenham
1 - 2 Tottenham
3 - 0 Gladbach
0 - 2 Gladbach

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:42 pm

Sabre's stat's are open to interpretation. You had to be the champions of your domestic league pre-1993 in order to play in the European Cup - although you invariably played 4 less games to win the competition than you would need now to win it.

I'd say one of the reasons why the competition was re-branded and altered in format was to accomodate for the increase in the number of quality teams throughout Europe who were just as good, if not significantly better than the champions of smaller domestic leagues, but who did not finish as champions of their domestic league.

Whereas in the past you'd often face the champions of a domestic league that was relatively unknown, now you'll face 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed sides from Europe's strongest leagues and in a longer format. There were some top sides that never managed to reach the European Cup, who were miles better than the Champions of Iceland for example.

It would be the modern day equivalent of having a UCL without Barcelona, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Valencia, AC Milan, Roma or Bayern Munich.

The figures Sabre posted, particularly those concerning the win % rates of each manager, need to be calibrated. There's no statistical way of doing so as the 'standard' now, compared to the 'standard' pre-1993 - in conjunction with numerous other conditions that affect the outcome of their respective win% rates (e.g. Group stages, as opposed to purely knock-out comp, playing 9 matches to win it instead of 13 or more) is entirely open to interpretation.

I would just add that the standard of these seemingly random European sides who were Champions of their respective domestic leagues was higher than it is today, basically because now, the strength of a select few European leagues - predominantly La Liga, The Premiership and Seria A is enough to attract all the best players from these relatively unknown nations (growth of football, through TV money encouraging more transfers etc). I wouldn't go as far to say that these sides were as good as the modern day 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams from Europe's elite leagues (which is the gauge of 'standard'), but they were of a higher standard than they are now.

Steaua Bucharest won the the European cup - albeit at a time when all English clubs were banned from the Competition - with a predominantly Romanian side.

They overcame Barcelona in the final, however, faced relatvely weak opposition in comparison on their way to reaching the final. FC Kuuysyi in the quarter finals for example, then Anderlecht in the Semi's. It would be like us facing the equivalent of Wigan Athletic in the quarter finals, and Werder Bremen in the Semi's in today's format, before facing Barcelona in the final.

In conclusion and to link this back to win % rate comparisons,

Whilst the altering of the format from its pre-1993 status has unquestionably improved the standard of the 'second tier' teams (examples aplenty - FC Kuuysyi being just one who managed to get to the 1/4's - who the feck were they?) who partake in the competition, and subsequently raising the overall standard of the competition - making it more difficult to win. The introduction of the group stages, initially two, then changing to one in Rafa's and our case during his tenure, has made it possible to play six games, all before the last 16. This means, in the time it took to reach the 1/4 finals pre-1993, you will have only just qualified for the knockout phases of the competition in its latest format (assuming no qualifiers - which otherwise will increase your win% rate again -In Rafa's case it will have done). This is significant in that, whilst you (generic) may have faced a couple of very poor unknown European sides on your way to winning the European cup 30 years ago, you will at some stage have had to have faced at least one top European side. That meeting may subsequently prevent you from playing any more matches, and for that season, the opportunity to increase your win% in that competition would have been over. Now, you have the opportunity to play 6 matches before the knockout phases even begin. Given our seeding, we will always be placed in a group that is winnable by a decent margin by our standards. So, we will invariably progress having won at least 3, probably 4 matches. This would, in its pre-1993 format have taken us straight to the 1/4 finals. The point is, you have a greater opportunity to increase your win% as a manager in today's format given the increase in length of the competition, in conjunction with the introduction of the group phase. However, this is counter-balanced by the improvement of 'second tier' teams (i.e. those outside the very best) in today's competition, but this improvement is not as significant as the alteration of the format of the competition in its influence over win% rate.

So, whilst the stat's that show Rafa's win% rate as it is (58%) may not be entirely accurate when comparing with Shankly and the like, I'd say that if you lowered it by 8%, having accounted mainly for the change in format (Qualifiers alone count for 16% of that win% rate) - but also bearing in mind we also faced some joke sides like FC Crusaders in the first round back in the day - then I would say you have a fair reflection of what the win% rates are.

I think the factors set-out above are all absolutely relevant, it's merely a matter of personal judgement as to the exact extent you believe they affect the overall win% rate.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:00 pm

There's certainly some interesting takes on stats there and some very good points made. For my part I'm a bit old fashioned, and while Champions league success is great (and we have probably the best manager in the World at achieving it), being the BEST TEAM in your own country is what you should aim to be every season. Winning the Champions league or the FA CUp doen't make you the ebst team in the competition, winning the Premiership does.

Rafa has been fantastically successful in the Champions League and whichever way you dissect the sats, that can't be denied. That said, the fact that we have never ever at any stage of his tenure at Liverpool been involved in a title race, (save for the first half dozen games or so each season) is a huge advantage to a Champions League plotter. I guess that's the real take on the stats when comparing Rafa's achievements to previous Liverpool managers, when they were putting their records together they were also winning the League at the same time. Had you have said to Shankly or Paisley that it was OK to finish five or six wins behind the Champions, Ok to finish fourth then my suspicion is their stats against European competition (allowing of course for the fact that as Saint pointed out, we wouldn't actually have got in the tournament) , would have improved.

We started this season off by saying we were going for the League. Even the manager said that. I've noticed one or two posters going down the "so what if we can't win the League, who says that's a more prestigious competition anyway?" route, which of course they are entitled to do. I don't buy into that though. Of course I hope we win the Champions League (although I must confess I think we've drawn a very good team in the next round and it'll take all of Rafa's undoubted tactical expertese to get us through) but even if we do, it doesn't change the fact that once again we are going to fall well short in the League. It'll put money in the coffers, it'll add to the record, but ultimately if we're honest it's whether opr not we can win the Premiership anytime soon which should be the topic of discussion in the Summer.

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