Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:47 pm

I don't know Lando I think we're in danger of going into over-reaction mode again. It's oprecisely this sort of thing which causes threads to degenerate. "If you can't win us the Premiership now then you can feck off"? I'm not sure too many are saying that to be perfectly honest. Most of us, (probably including yourself at some point) were hoping not so much that we might win it, but at least that we would make a challenge for the Premiership. We haven't so far made a challenge for the Premiership in Rafa's four years at the helm, some of us hoped we might get within shouting distance this year. Some of us even think that the group of players is probably good enough to go very close. It's hardly "feck off Rafa stuff" though, and some people who are defending him and his record like yourself (which of course you are perfectly entitled to do) ought to consider calming down a bit. People like Heimdall deserve it but some others don't.

We touched earlier on on the various possible reasons why we won't challenge. Is it rotation of personel and formations, luck, injuries, dodgy referees, missed chances or perhaps that we simply aren't up to it. It's probably some of all of those things to varying degrees, but if it really is that we simply aren't good enough to launch a title challenge then WHY is a reasonable question. Is it because we haven't had enough money to spend, is it because we've bought the wrong players, is it because we've bought the right players and they need more time, is it because we've got too mnay squad players maybe? All these are questions that it's legitimate to ask on a football forum. Of course, if you go for the "Rafa has his badges, he has won La Liga and the Champions League so therefore questioning any of his decisions is futile" stance, then that's fair enough. It does seem a bit odd though if that is your position to then jump on others who debate the issues.

FWIW I don't go with the "Rafa can't handle the Premiership" angle to be perfectly honest. He makes mistakes for sure, but it's not because he can't handle the Premiership. As for the record points total which is the first point of defence for those who won't hear a word against Rafa, I would say two things. Firstly, my impression was that in that season we were running on through beaten horses, the league was over as a contest and we were under no pressure. That said we did well to amass that points total. If we accept though that the achievement was a very good one, how do we asses last season where we got absolutely nowhere near that total, and this where we likely won't either? Would it be a knee-jerk reaction to feel we might have gone slightly backwards from those dizzy hieghts, or is it just one of those things and of course nothing whatsoever to do with the manager?

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:53 pm

If we had signed or there seemed a chance that we could sign a top creative striker this month I would have said there was maybe 1 chance in 20 that we could still win the league. As it appears that we have no chance of signing anyone but a CB ,thats just about what I see our chances of winning the league as ..... no chance.

by **NANNY RED** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:54 pm

Im not havin a go at people on here Lando every one has got there own opinion on Rafa lad. thats down to them but its doin my head in at matches and sometimes on here when only winning the prem is good enough for us anymore. Its especialy coming from the younger generation at games who have been unfortunate not to have been around when we did dominate winning the league.

I was at the city game last week when this young lad abar 20 was giving it all the mouth regarding Rafa and thats it well never win the prem . Some ald fella whos been going the match for about 90 years

turned and said to him to wind his neck in Whats this :censored:

obbsession with winnin the prem if its the only think were interested lad we might aswell jib the Euro cup and the fa cup save our legs just for the prem. Lets see then how many world class players wanna come and play for us then just to win the prem.
Everyone fell about laughin cause the ald fella was spot on

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:07 pm

bigmick wrote:I don't know Lando I think we're in danger of going into over-reaction mode again. It's oprecisely this sort of thing which causes threads to degenerate. "If you can't win us the Premiership now then you can feck off"? I'm not sure too many are saying that to be perfectly honest. Most of us, (probably including yourself at some point) were hoping not so much that we might win it, but at least that we would make a challenge for the Premiership. We haven't so far made a challenge for the Premiership in Rafa's four years at the helm, some of us hoped we might get within shouting distance this year. Some of us even think that the group of players is probably good enough to go very close. It's hardly "feck off Rafa stuff" though, and some people who are defending him and his record like yourself (which of course you are perfectly entitled to do) ought to consider calming down a bit. People like Heimdall deserve it but some others don't.

We touched earlier on on the various possible reasons why we won't challenge. Is it rotation of personel and formations, luck, injuries, dodgy referees, missed chances or perhaps that we simply aren't up to it. It's probably some of all of those things to varying degrees, but if it really is that we simply aren't good enough to launch a title challenge then WHY is a reasonable question. Is it because we haven't had enough money to spend, is it because we've bought the wrong players, is it because we've bought the right players and they need more time, is it because we've got too mnay squad players maybe? All these are questions that it's legitimate to ask on a football forum. Of course, if you go for the "Rafa has his badges, he has won La Liga and the Champions League so therefore questioning any of his decisions is futile" stance, then that's fair enough. It does seem a bit odd though if that is your position to then jump on others who debate the issues.

FWIW I don't go with the "Rafa can't handle the Premiership" angle to be perfectly honest. He makes mistakes for sure, but it's not because he can't handle the Premiership. As for the record points total which is the first point of defence for those who won't hear a word against Rafa, I would say two things. Firstly, my impression was that in that season we were running on through beaten horses, the league was over as a contest and we were under no pressure. That said we did well to amass that points total. If we accept though that the achievement was a very good one, how do we asses last season where we got absolutely nowhere near that total, and this where we likely won't either? Would it be a knee-jerk reaction to feel we might have gone slightly backwards from those dizzy hieghts, or is it just one of those things and of course nothing whatsoever to do with the manager?

Heimdall and the like are exactly who those comments were referring to, though. It's their "contribution" to this forum that infuriates me.

The thing is - when people are angry, they are more vocal than when they're happy. It's human nature.

I wasn't "over-reacting" (or reacting) to your comments in this particular instance - merely using what I consider the ardent "Anti-Rafa" view as examples. I didn't even have you in mind when I wrote that bit, so I apologise if you feel I was having a pop at you - I wasn't.

Back on topic - I agree that this season's disappointments are due to a large mix of things - it's just that I personally don't believe it's mainly down to Rafa.

He's made mistakes - of course he has - but I don't think he's made any glaring howlers - it's more unforeseen circumstances that bugger his plans up, IMHO. (Like Torres getting injured 2 minutes into the Arsenal game, for instance.) Or Crouch auditioning for the Hong Kong Fooey Hall of fame against Sh*tski.

If Gerrard and Torres were totally fit an draring to go against Portsmouth and Brum, then yes, they should have started. I still maintain that the teams we put out were more than good enough to win, but they didn't - that's football. What's to say that we'd have won had both started, though? We might even have lost!

But the fact is, they were both at the very least recovering having played 2 matches in 4 days.

Dodgy reffing decisions - we've had a few that have cost us points. I'm sure we'll get some good fortune to even it out, though.

But it's the injuries that I feel have buggered us up more than any other single thing. Maybe, if Saint's list is to be believe, our rivals have suffered more with the bloody things. I doubt it, but it's possible.

But the thing is, the injuries have affected us more than them. Whether or not they were longterm, missing certain players for one game can mean the difference between a win and a draw. The difference between Rafa playing a team he's happy with, and one that he wouldn't normally pick in a month of Sundays.

Yes, the opposition have to deal with that, too, but maybe they deal with injuries better than us.
Let's be fair - Rafa has paid £11m+ once. Our rivals spend double that on bench-warmers.

by **heimdall** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:12 pm

bigmick wrote:I don't know Lando I think we're in danger of going into over-reaction mode again. It's oprecisely this sort of thing which causes threads to degenerate. "If you can't win us the Premiership now then you can feck off"? I'm not sure too many are saying that to be perfectly honest. Most of us, (probably including yourself at some point) were hoping not so much that we might win it, but at least that we would make a challenge for the Premiership. We haven't so far made a challenge for the Premiership in Rafa's four years at the helm, some of us hoped we might get within shouting distance this year. Some of us even think that the group of players is probably good enough to go very close. It's hardly "feck off Rafa stuff" though, and some people who are defending him and his record like yourself (which of course you are perfectly entitled to do) ought to consider calming down a bit. People like Heimdall deserve it but some others don't.

We touched earlier on on the various possible reasons why we won't challenge. Is it rotation of personel and formations, luck, injuries, dodgy referees, missed chances or perhaps that we simply aren't up to it. It's probably some of all of those things to varying degrees, but if it really is that we simply aren't good enough to launch a title challenge then WHY is a reasonable question. Is it because we haven't had enough money to spend, is it because we've bought the wrong players, is it because we've bought the right players and they need more time, is it because we've got too mnay squad players maybe? All these are questions that it's legitimate to ask on a football forum. Of course, if you go for the "Rafa has his badges, he has won La Liga and the Champions League so therefore questioning any of his decisions is futile" stance, then that's fair enough. It does seem a bit odd though if that is your position to then jump on others who debate the issues.

FWIW I don't go with the "Rafa can't handle the Premiership" angle to be perfectly honest. He makes mistakes for sure, but it's not because he can't handle the Premiership. As for the record points total which is the first point of defence for those who won't hear a word against Rafa, I would say two things. Firstly, my impression was that in that season we were running on through beaten horses, the league was over as a contest and we were under no pressure. That said we did well to amass that points total. If we accept though that the achievement was a very good one, how do we asses last season where we got absolutely nowhere near that total, and this where we likely won't either? Would it be a knee-jerk reaction to feel we might have gone slightly backwards from those dizzy hieghts, or is it just one of those things and of course nothing whatsoever to do with the manager?

I'm sorry why but why the f*ck am I being singled out for abuse BigMick?? :veryangry

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:13 pm

heimdall wrote:
bigmick wrote:I don't know Lando I think we're in danger of going into over-reaction mode again. It's oprecisely this sort of thing which causes threads to degenerate. "If you can't win us the Premiership now then you can feck off"? I'm not sure too many are saying that to be perfectly honest. Most of us, (probably including yourself at some point) were hoping not so much that we might win it, but at least that we would make a challenge for the Premiership. We haven't so far made a challenge for the Premiership in Rafa's four years at the helm, some of us hoped we might get within shouting distance this year. Some of us even think that the group of players is probably good enough to go very close. It's hardly "feck off Rafa stuff" though, and some people who are defending him and his record like yourself (which of course you are perfectly entitled to do) ought to consider calming down a bit. People like Heimdall deserve it but some others don't.

We touched earlier on on the various possible reasons why we won't challenge. Is it rotation of personel and formations, luck, injuries, dodgy referees, missed chances or perhaps that we simply aren't up to it. It's probably some of all of those things to varying degrees, but if it really is that we simply aren't good enough to launch a title challenge then WHY is a reasonable question. Is it because we haven't had enough money to spend, is it because we've bought the wrong players, is it because we've bought the right players and they need more time, is it because we've got too mnay squad players maybe? All these are questions that it's legitimate to ask on a football forum. Of course, if you go for the "Rafa has his badges, he has won La Liga and the Champions League so therefore questioning any of his decisions is futile" stance, then that's fair enough. It does seem a bit odd though if that is your position to then jump on others who debate the issues.

FWIW I don't go with the "Rafa can't handle the Premiership" angle to be perfectly honest. He makes mistakes for sure, but it's not because he can't handle the Premiership. As for the record points total which is the first point of defence for those who won't hear a word against Rafa, I would say two things. Firstly, my impression was that in that season we were running on through beaten horses, the league was over as a contest and we were under no pressure. That said we did well to amass that points total. If we accept though that the achievement was a very good one, how do we asses last season where we got absolutely nowhere near that total, and this where we likely won't either? Would it be a knee-jerk reaction to feel we might have gone slightly backwards from those dizzy hieghts, or is it just one of those things and of course nothing whatsoever to do with the manager?

I'm sorry why but why the f*ck am I being singled out for abuse BigMick??

You reap what you sew.

by **heimdall** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:18 pm

Bloody hell Lando you have an excuse for everything don't you. Tell me something, can Rafa ever do anything wrong in your eyes? it's a joke.

Are you suggesting our injuries have been worse than anybody else? That just isn't true, especially if you compare with Chelsea.

What about the genius of playing Torres as a lone striker with Gerrard skulking around in his own half against Wigan, how is that a master stroke of tactics? Or how about not playing Crouch to the point where he is now match unfit and completely demoralised, yeah that is real smart stuff from Rafa.

by **NANNY RED** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:22 pm

I you were just bein used as an example lad as the get rid of Rafa well never win the prem with him. It does show in your posts though that you have no faith what so ever in Rafa and all you seem to do is slate him.

Id like to ask you a question if we dont win the prem and win the Euro cup will you still say Rafa is not good enough

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:26 pm

There's no question and I agree with you that our rivals (possibly not Arsenal) have spent much more than us, and of course it helps if you can get an injury to, say, Drogba and then just go out and buy Anelka. To be fair, the two strikers which are being talked about in terms of January signings for the big clubs are Anelka and Berbatov, and either would absolutely walk straight into our team. Why? well because either are better than any of our strikers other than Torres. Rafa of course will know that, but if he isn't been given the cash then there's really feck all he can do about it. To be fair forget about Berbatov, Tottenham have got four strikers who would all get straight into our team, particularly given the fact that we don't speak to Crouch anymore. Why's that? well because we bought Kuyt who isn't good enough. Fair play though, Rafa got that one wrong but as I've said many times, his transfer record is excellent and only Morientes and Kuyt can be considered failures IMHO.

I said on antoher thread that the reason I most felt sorry for Rafa was thatt he goalposts have moved visa vis his spending plans. Would he have signed the admittedly promising Babel and Lucas for the best part of twenty million squid had he have known that he wasn't going to be backed up with more cash? I very much doubt it to be perfectly honest. Those two were signings for a couple of years hence, and had he known that the Yanks were going to be loading up to pull the trigger by Christmas he'd have gone for more immediate first-team solutions I'm absolutely convinced of it. I do feel he has been badly treated there.

The injuries though? Nah not for me. I'm not saying they have had no effect as all changes to the team have an effect (whether they be forced or voluntary

) but they aren't significant enough to be the main reason in my opinion anyway.

No, in a nutshell I think the reason why we won't challenge is because we haven't quite been good enough. It's not injuries, it's not bad luck, it's not missed chances or bad referees, it's just that we ain't been up to it. It's why we ain't been up to it of course that is the question.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:30 pm

heimdall wrote:Bloody hell Lando you have an excuse for everything don't you. Tell me something, can Rafa ever do anything wrong in your eyes? it's a joke.

Are you suggesting our injuries have been worse than anybody else? That just isn't true, especially if you compare with Chelsea.

What about the genius of playing Torres as a lone striker with Gerrard skulking around in his own half against Wigan, how is that a master stroke of tactics? Or how about not playing Crouch to the point where he is now match unfit and completely demoralised, yeah that is real smart stuff from Rafa.

Forgive me, but didn't Torres score against Wigan?

Yep? That's what I thought.

And as for Crouch - I'm sure I recall you labeling him as sh*t when he went through a bad spell.

Anyhoo... I have never said Rafa is infallible, but to suggest, as you have, that all the good things over the last four years are inspite of Rafa, and all the bad things are because of him, is backward. You can't have it both ways, no matter how much you want it.

You come on here after a draw like a gangly-toothed inbred farmer and act like Rafa stole your kids and raped your cattle. You call him a "f*cking idiot", and such, then you question the intelligence of a man who no-doubt has more knowledge in his left knacker that you possess in your entire body.

THEN, you cry your f*cking eyes out when someone pulls you up and subjects you to a similar level of abuse to that you dish out to the boss.

In short, you reap what you sew.

by **NANNY RED** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:33 pm

bigmick wrote:I said on antoher thread that the reason I most felt sorry for Rafa was thatt he goalposts have moved visa vis his spending plans. Would he have signed the admittedly promising Babel and Lucas for the best part of twenty million squid had he have known that he wasn't going to be backed up with more cash? I very much doubt it to be perfectly honest. Those two were signings for a couple of years hence, and had he known that the Yanks were going to be loading up to pull the trigger by Christmas he'd have gone for more immediate first-team solutions I'm absolutely convinced of it. I do feel he has been badly treated there.

.

Agreed mick

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:35 pm

bigmick wrote:There's no question and I agree with you that our rivals (possibly not Arsenal) have spent much more than us, and of course it helps if you can get an injury to, say, Drogba and then just go out and buy Anelka. To be fair, the two strikers which are being talked about in terms of January signings for the big clubs are Anelka and Berbatov, and either would absolutely walk straight into our team. Why? well because either are better than any of our strikers other than Torres. Rafa of course will know that, but if he isn't been given the cash then there's really feck all he can do about it. To be fair forget about Berbatov, Tottenham have got four strikers who would all get straight into our team, particularly given the fact that we don't speak to Crouch anymore. Why's that? well because we bought Kuyt who isn't good enough. Fair play though, Rafa got that one wrong but as I've said many times, his transfer record is excellent and only Morientes and Kuyt can be considered failures IMHO.

I said on antoher thread that the reason I most felt sorry for Rafa was thatt he goalposts have moved visa vis his spending plans. Would he have signed the admittedly promising Babel and Lucas for the best part of twenty million squid had he have known that he wasn't going to be backed up with more cash? I very much doubt it to be perfectly honest. Those two were signings for a couple of years hence, and had he known that the Yanks were going to be loading up to pull the trigger by Christmas he'd have gone for more immediate first-team solutions I'm absolutely convinced of it. I do feel he has been badly treated there.

The injuries though? Nah not for me. I'm not saying they have had no effect as all changes to the team have an effect (whether they be forced or voluntary ) but they aren't significant enough to be the main reason in my opinion anyway.

No, in a nutshell I think the reason why we won't challenge is because we haven't quite been good enough. It's not injuries, it's not bad luck, it's not missed chances or bad referees, it's just that we ain't been up to it. It's why we ain't been up to it of course that is the question.

Fair enough Mick. Let's be honest - we're not a million miles apart on things - it's just that I give more weight to one corner, and you another. It's pretty academic really.

I agree we haven't been good enough - that's not even up for debate.

It's just that I don't buy that Rafa is the reason, is all.

by **NANNY RED** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:39 pm

Not answering my question Heimdall

?

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:41 pm

Nah mate, you wear what you sew , you reap what you sow

Heimdall is ok, he doesn't like Rafa, but nobody's perfect! (Maybe Mascherano)

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:46 pm

s@int wrote:Nah mate, you wear what you sew , you reap what you sow

Heimdall is ok, he doesn't like Rafa, but nobody's perfect! (Maybe Mascherano)

Well bugger me.

25 years I've spent on this planet, and always considered "sow" to be a female pig.

But you're right! I'm in mourning now... :sniffle

Liverpool FC Forum

If we are out of the league - What now?

Who is online