If we are out of the league - What now?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:40 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:rafa is on drugs we are progressing and so are they he says.

Right ok so how does that exsplain the 3-1 loss to reading then they aint spent mor money then us and they beat us i swear he think that its all about the money , well fu ck me it isnt its about getting the most out of what you have and we have a good enuff squad to be beating the likes of reading ffs.

AHHHH very angry now !  :veryangry

And Arsenal have a good enough squad to be beating Boro and the Mancs are surely better than Bolton, right?

Progress isn't measured in one game or five games.  If it were, I'd be pointing to the Villa, Fulham and Derby games--games where we scored late to take all 3 points...something we've really struggled to do in the past.  Or, I might emphasize the number of games where we've scored 4 or more goals--again something we've not seen before under Rafa.  Might those be signs of progress?

No Bob - that's far too obvious.

Like the fact that we've dominated next to every match we've played this season, irrespective of the result.

The only game I can think of where we weren't the better team is...

Oh, erm...

Hmmm....


Hang on...

Porto away. WOW!
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:50 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:rafa is on drugs we are progressing and so are they he says.

Right ok so how does that exsplain the 3-1 loss to reading then they aint spent mor money then us and they beat us i swear he think that its all about the money , well fu ck me it isnt its about getting the most out of what you have and we have a good enuff squad to be beating the likes of reading ffs.

AHHHH very angry now !  :veryangry

And Arsenal have a good enough squad to be beating Boro and the Mancs are surely better than Bolton, right?

Progress isn't measured in one game or five games.  If it were, I'd be pointing to the Villa, Fulham and Derby games--games where we scored late to take all 3 points...something we've really struggled to do in the past.  Or, I might emphasize the number of games where we've scored 4 or more goals--again something we've not seen before under Rafa.  Might those be signs of progress?

No Bob - that's far too obvious.

Like the fact that we've dominated next to every match we've played this season, irrespective of the result.

The only game I can think of where we weren't the better team is...

Oh, erm...

Hmmm....


Hang on...

Porto away. WOW!

Arsenal at home too mate, at best we broke even in that game.

Its points on the board and cups that matter, lets see where we are at the end of the season before we start making assessments.

No cups and a similar points total to last season will make any defence of Rafa futile IMO. 5TH place would seal his fate.

Anyone who doesn't think that winning a cup is good enough to give Rafa another season needs their brains testing btw.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:07 pm

s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:rafa is on drugs we are progressing and so are they he says.

Right ok so how does that exsplain the 3-1 loss to reading then they aint spent mor money then us and they beat us i swear he think that its all about the money , well fu ck me it isnt its about getting the most out of what you have and we have a good enuff squad to be beating the likes of reading ffs.

AHHHH very angry now !  :veryangry

And Arsenal have a good enough squad to be beating Boro and the Mancs are surely better than Bolton, right?

Progress isn't measured in one game or five games.  If it were, I'd be pointing to the Villa, Fulham and Derby games--games where we scored late to take all 3 points...something we've really struggled to do in the past.  Or, I might emphasize the number of games where we've scored 4 or more goals--again something we've not seen before under Rafa.  Might those be signs of progress?

No Bob - that's far too obvious.

Like the fact that we've dominated next to every match we've played this season, irrespective of the result.

The only game I can think of where we weren't the better team is...

Oh, erm...

Hmmm....


Hang on...

Porto away. WOW!

Arsenal at home too mate, at best we broke even in that game.

Its points on the board and cups that matter, lets see where we are at the end of the season before we start making assessments.

No cups and a similar points total to last season will make any defence of Rafa futile IMO. 5TH place would seal his fate.

Anyone who doesn't think that winning a cup is good enough to give Rafa another season needs their brains testing btw.

I thought we were in charge of that match until Superman went off injured. :D

To be fair, we never looked like conceding up to that point. (About 75 mins if memory serves.)

I know what you're saying about points, but if the latter half of the season is similar to the first with respect to injuries, surely it's a little unfair to compare the achievements of this and the last campaign?

"Every team has injuries" I hear you cry! Yes, they do, but there comes a point when you have to accept that one team will have more injuries than anyone else, and that it WILL effect the outcome of the season.
Do any of you truly feel that we'd be this far behind were it not for the horrendous injuries we've had this year? Do you all think that Arsenal would be 12 points ahead of us had they been without their best players for months at a time?

How about the scum? Would they be where they are if Vidic had been out for 4 months?
If Evra was out until last month? If Giggs has only just returned from a season-long lay-off? If gay-boy Ronnie had broken his homo pin and been out of action for 10 weeks?
If fat b*stard was out for over a month? If Scholes (or whoever is their best midfielder now) were out with a broken tootsie? If Carrick were out for 4 months?

Of course they wouldn't - it stands to reason that you'll perform at a lower level without your better players.

Anyone - and I mean ANYONE who doesn't agree that injuries will play a part in the final outcome of this season is on drugs.

Look at the scum when Scholes was out for half a season - they were utter sh*t compared to what they are now.
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:12 pm

Manure got their customary win over Villa.


Why do Villa even bother showing up?
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:17 pm

Thats why you have a big squad, to cope with injuries mate. The mancs have had Rooney out, Neville out Saha, Scholes out etc etc.

If we were Reading or Derby it would be a valid excuse, but when you are bringing top players in to cover it seems a little churlish to complain too much.

If it was a goalkeeper or maybe Torres I think you might have a little more of an argument because we don't really have ANYONE to replace them with, but for the rest I don't think you can complain too much.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:32 pm

Well if we're going to debate how we've played in each match relative to the other team Lando, lets at least try and keep it sensible. We "didn't look like conceding" against Arsenal? Feck me they hit the post twice and missed open goal rebounds before they scored. Come on that's hardly a sensible argument. Neither is claiming we've dominated every game, do you seriously, honestly, believe we dominated the games Away to Portsmouth or Reading?

Similarly this argument which is creeping in that we have been in some way unlucky, it's just simply that the chances haven't gone in is delusional in the extreme. Injuries? Well Aggers injury has hurt but it's worth remembering that coinciding with Hyppia playing in the centre came our very best spell. Then Hyppia got injured as well but it was hardly a surprise given his age and the fact we were asking him to play every game. Not having a further centre-back to call on other than the inexperienced and arguably not good enough Hobbs isn't a case of bad luck.

As for Alonso being injured, well many prefer Masherano anyway. We've also got a bloke who won Brazillian player of the year sitting on his erse and a fella who Juventus are after so I don't accept that hurt us massively either. I know you mentioned Aurelio and Kewells injuries in an earlier post. Aurelio I've said many times that I like, but since he's been at the club he's barely played two consecutive games, and despite having obvious qualities has never consistently put form together so I don't think his absense is overly significant, while Kewell was unfit before the season even started (since last season in fact) so him coming back is a welcome bonus while his injury was known about and should have been planned for.

Torres being out for a couple of matches did hurt I'll give you that. I think he missed two or was it three League games and we missed him as he's one of our best players. It certainly put into perspective the absolutely barmy decision to rest him after half a dozen games and of our own valition, sit him on his erse for two consecutive League games before playing him in an Away Carling Cuo match where he got the sh!t kicked out of him. I also think we felt his absense more as we insist on playing a bloke alongside him who never looks like he will score a goal unless you give him a penalty. If we played Crouch/Babel/Benayoun/Me alongside Torres I suspect any of those would offer more goal threat than Kuyt, and then when Torres was out perhaps we wouldn't feel it so badly.

The injuries as a reason for underpermance though can't hold water for a pro rotationalist surely? You can't on the one hand claim that it's OK to change the team every week, to change the formation and the players, and which positions they play in etc doesn't have an effect on the fluency of the team, then on another hand claim that those self same players which you voluntarily sit on their erse while they're fit mortally wound your title challenge when they sit down injured. Like the delayed gazelle theory, it defies all sensible logic. It also defies logivc when you consider that all the toher top four teams have had to cope with injuries as well.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:38 pm

I would also go further and say if it's OK to finish a mile off the top of the table each time the team suffers injuries during a season, then Rafa surely does have a job for life because you will ALWAYS suffer injuries during a season. I can remember seasons past where half our first choice team have been out long term, this season has been by no means a remarkable one for people getting knocks. I think we should collectively be thanking him upstairs that Gerrard and/or Torres aren't long term injured, because if either of them was or perish the thought both, for all our "options" and "possibilities" we would be struggling to get in the top six never mind the top four.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:03 pm

bigmick wrote:Well if we're going to debate how we've played in each match relative to the other team Lando, lets at least try and keep it sensible. We "didn't look like conceding" against Arsenal? Feck me they hit the post twice and missed open goal rebounds before they scored. Come on that's hardly a sensible argument. Neither is claiming we've dominated every game, do you seriously, honestly, believe we dominated the games Away to Portsmouth or Reading?

Similarly this argument which is creeping in that we have been in some way unlucky, it's just simply that the chances haven't gone in is delusional in the extreme. Injuries? Well Aggers injury has hurt but it's worth remembering that coinciding with Hyppia playing in the centre came our very best spell. Then Hyppia got injured as well but it was hardly a surprise given his age and the fact we were asking him to play every game. Not having a further centre-back to call on other than the inexperienced and arguably not good enough Hobbs isn't a case of bad luck.

As for Alonso being injured, well many prefer Masherano anyway. We've also got a bloke who won Brazillian player of the year sitting on his erse and a fella who Juventus are after so I don't accept that hurt us massively either. I know you mentioned Aurelio and Kewells injuries in an earlier post. Aurelio I've said many times that I like, but since he's been at the club he's barely played two consecutive games, and despite having obvious qualities has never consistently put form together so I don't think his absense is overly significant, while Kewell was unfit before the season even started (since last season in fact) so him coming back is a welcome bonus while his injury was known about and should have been planned for.

Torres being out for a couple of matches did hurt I'll give you that. I think he missed two or was it three League games and we missed him as he's one of our best players. It certainly put into perspective the absolutely barmy decision to rest him after half a dozen games and of our own valition, sit him on his erse for two consecutive League games before playing him in an Away Carling Cuo match where he got the sh!t kicked out of him. I also think we felt his absense more as we insist on playing a bloke alongside him who never looks like he will score a goal unless you give him a penalty. If we played Crouch/Babel/Benayoun/Me alongside Torres I suspect any of those would offer more goal threat than Kuyt, and then when Torres was out perhaps we wouldn't feel it so badly.

The injuries as a reason for underpermance though can't hold water for a pro rotationalist surely? You can't on the one hand claim that it's OK to change the team every week, to change the formation and the players, and which positions they play in etc doesn't have an effect on the fluency of the team, then on another hand claim that those self same players which you voluntarily sit on their erse while they're fit mortally wound your title challenge when they sit down injured. Like the delayed gazelle theory, it defies all sensible logic. It also defies logivc when you consider that all the toher top four teams have had to cope with injuries as well.

Mick, I can do exactly as I like.

You see, this is the problem with you sometimes - you seem to be under some misapprehension that I am a massive fan of rotation. I'm not. I'm just a massive fan of Rafa Benitez, and his record. And if rotation is good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

I have never once suggested that a Liverpool team missing Torres and Gerrard is going to be as strong as one including them. I just point out that the team on any given day is good enough to beat the opposition.
Of course dropping them (and IMHO Alonso and Carragher, too) weakens the team - that's never been in question on my part.

But I understand Rafa's logic of resting players, and nursing those with niggling injuries when given a chance. The fact is, clubs don't make it common knowledge when players are carrying certain injuries, as it can give advantages to the opposition. So "resting Torres and Gerrard" for 2 games could quite easily be Rafa's way of preventing a little injury problem from growing into a big one.

I don't know - I don't work at Melwood. (None of us on here do, but I've no-doubt that this reasoning will induce a reaction of ridicule, as though it were some pathetic grasp for an excuse to stick up for the boss. No doubt at all. But the fact is, it happens. Like it or lump it - it happens.)
It certainly makes sense to me to rest £50m-odd worth of talent when the other players should be good enough to beat sh*t like Portsmouth, Birmingham, etc. The fact that they weren't reflects more on their individual performances, than their actual footballing ability.

And on the "but we had other options" - yes, we did. But then, when the better players are out, the ones who step-up to the plate have to be constantly on top of their game just to get by. For all his fans, Mascherano is not, and will never be the player Alonso is, and he just cannot do the things Xabi can. So when we're struggling to break teams down, we miss the more creative option. When we've got our backs to the wall, there's not that big a difference.
Similarly, Hyypia is a better defender than Agger, but the Dane is a much better footballer. He can create an attack from the back, whereas Sami can't. And he's quicker, which means the back-line can venture another few yards forward, pressing the opposition more effectively in much the same way as Valencia did under Rafa.
We got our best AND worst results with Sami at the back this year, so I don't see any merit in the your "Sami played during our best spell" argument.

I digress:

Rotation isn't, in my honest opinion, ever going to be "swap this player for that one with no effect on the team's ability" - it's more like "swap player a for b so a gets a rest whilst b plays against a team he's good enough to beat."
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:21 pm

bigmick wrote:I would also go further and say if it's OK to finish a mile off the top of the table each time the team suffers injuries during a season, then Rafa surely does have a job for life because you will ALWAYS suffer injuries during a season. I can remember seasons past where half our first choice team have been out long term, this season has been by no means a remarkable one for people getting knocks. I think we should collectively be thanking him upstairs that Gerrard and/or Torres aren't long term injured, because if either of them was or perish the thought both, for all our "options" and "possibilities" we would be struggling to get in the top six never mind the top four.

The exact same could be said for Man U with Fatty and Ron.

Or Arsenal with whoever their top two are.

Or Sh*tski, with Dogbreath and Fat Frank.

And I'm sorry, but we've had the following out this season:

Gerrard
Alonso
Torres
Carragher
Agger
Hyypia
Pennant
Kewell
Finnan
Riise
Aurelio.

Hardly unremarkable.

Why are you so reluctant to see beyond rotation? I don't remember us "rotating" against Wigan, but we drew that match. I don't remember the much-maligned rotation rearing it's ugly head against the Scum. Arguably our two worst results of the season (At least Reading was away), and rotation wasn't used. Even the Reading match saw the following lineup take to the field:

Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher (Hyypia 81), Hobbs, Riise, Gerrard (Babel 70), Mascherano, Sissoko, Voronin, Torres (Kewell 60), Crouch.

Hardly a massive piece of "tinkering" when you consider the success of the very same system at St James' Park 2 weeks earlier. Torres and Gerrard played from the start. (Yes they were both withdrawn when it became apparent that the game was lost, but that's irrelevant - they were both on for at least an hour, which was plenty of time to make their mark.)

So our 3 worst results of the season - and rotation was used liberally in one, and was none-existent in the other 2.

But it's all rotation's fault...  ???
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Postby bigmick » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:21 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:And on the "but we had other options" - yes, we did. But then, when the better players are out, the ones who step-up to the plate have to be constantly on top of their game just to get by. For all his fans, Mascherano is not, and will never be the player Alonso is, and he just cannot do the things Xabi can. So when we're struggling to break teams down, we miss the more creative option. When we've got our backs to the wall, there's not that big a difference.
Similarly, Hyypia is a better defender than Agger, but the Dane is a much better footballer. He can create an attack from the back, whereas Sami can't. And he's quicker, which means the back-line can venture another few yards forward, pressing the opposition more effectively in much the same way as Valencia did under Rafa.
We got our best AND worst results with Sami at the back this year, so I don't see any merit in the your "Sami played during our best spell" argument.

I digress:

Rotation isn't, in my honest opinion, ever going to be "swap this player for that one with no effect on the team's ability" - it's more like "swap player a for b so a gets a rest whilst b plays against a team he's good enough to beat."

Well it's true none of us do work at Melwood, nor do we have Rafa's coaching badges, nor are we able to read his mind, nor have we won La Liga etc etc so it's pretty hard for to argue those points, which is no doubt why you stick them in  :D I would probably counter the said argument with the feeling that if he were "protecting" the players, he probably wouldn't have brought them on subs in the last half hour when the game was going at full throttle and we desperately needed a goal, but no matter you are correct in that we'll never know the true reasoning.

I note you didn't come back on the "dominating the games" issue so there's no need to dwell on that.

As far as the players who are out thing, I broadly agree with your assessment of the situation. Agger you're spot on about, both in the sense that in many defensive facets of the game (particularly arially) Hyppia is better, but also in the fact that aggers greater mobility and better ball playing talents has a positive effect on our play, and hieght of defensive line. My guess is we'd notice this more against weaker teams where he could step up and make an extra man, precisely the games which we have drawn recently so as I said, we have missed him in that sense. I've no doubt that Arsenal missed William Gallas while he was out for a similar reason, and obviously Chelsea will miss the prescense of Terry now he is apparently possibly out for the season. But no argument we missed Agger.

As for Alonso, once again I agree with most of what you say. Whether he's a better player or not than Masherano has been done to death so I won't go there here, but it's hard to argue with your assessment that the Spaniard is more creative than the Argentinian, he certainly is. It would certainly be true that Masherano can't do things "that Xabi can" and no doubt vice versa, I guess in a similar way to Owen Hargreaves not being able to do all (or indeed hardly any if truth be known) of the things which Paul Scholes can, or whoever Chelsea replaced Fat Frank with while he was out being able to do the same things he could, or Arsenal with Fabregas or Van Persie who was out for a couple of months, or Man Utd with Rooney for a similar spell etc etc.

But broadly I agree with your assessments, particularly on Agger.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:30 pm

bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:And on the "but we had other options" - yes, we did. But then, when the better players are out, the ones who step-up to the plate have to be constantly on top of their game just to get by. For all his fans, Mascherano is not, and will never be the player Alonso is, and he just cannot do the things Xabi can. So when we're struggling to break teams down, we miss the more creative option. When we've got our backs to the wall, there's not that big a difference.
Similarly, Hyypia is a better defender than Agger, but the Dane is a much better footballer. He can create an attack from the back, whereas Sami can't. And he's quicker, which means the back-line can venture another few yards forward, pressing the opposition more effectively in much the same way as Valencia did under Rafa.
We got our best AND worst results with Sami at the back this year, so I don't see any merit in the your "Sami played during our best spell" argument.

I digress:

Rotation isn't, in my honest opinion, ever going to be "swap this player for that one with no effect on the team's ability" - it's more like "swap player a for b so a gets a rest whilst b plays against a team he's good enough to beat."

Well it's true none of us do work at Melwood, nor do we have Rafa's coaching badges, nor are we able to read his mind, nor have we won La Liga etc etc so it's pretty hard for to argue those points, which is no doubt why you stick them in  :D I would probably counter the said argument with the feeling that if he were "protecting" the players, he probably wouldn't have brought them on subs in the last half hour when the game was going at full throttle and we desperately needed a goal, but no matter you are correct in that we'll never know the true reasoning.

I note you didn't come back on the "dominating the games" issue so there's no need to dwell on that.

As far as the players who are out thing, I broadly agree with your assessment of the situation. Agger you're spot on about, both in the sense that in many defensive facets of the game (particularly arially) Hyppia is better, but also in the fact that aggers greater mobility and better ball playing talents has a positive effect on our play, and hieght of defensive line. My guess is we'd notice this more against weaker teams where he could step up and make an extra man, precisely the games which we have drawn recently so as I said, we have missed him in that sense. I've no doubt that Arsenal missed William Gallas while he was out for a similar reason, and obviously Chelsea will miss the prescense of Terry now he is apparently possibly out for the season. But no argument we missed Agger.

As for Alonso, once again I agree with most of what you say. Whether he's a better player or not than Masherano has been done to death so I won't go there here, but it's hard to argue with your assessment that the Spaniard is more creative than the Argentinian, he certainly is. It would certainly be true that Masherano can't do things "that Xabi can" and no doubt vice versa, I guess in a similar way to Owen Hargreaves not being able to do all (or indeed hardly any if truth be known) of the things which Paul Scholes can, or whoever Chelsea replaced Fat Frank with while he was out being able to do the same things he could, or Arsenal with Fabregas or Van Persie who was out for a couple of months, or Man Utd with Rooney for a similar spell etc etc.

But broadly I agree with your assessments, particularly on Agger.

So because those teams have missed or are missing 2 players at most, their injury plight is similar to ours, right?

Complete and utter pigswill. How can you compare the two situations, when we have missed an entire team's worth of talent, and they have lost 1 or 2 players?

And regarding the "dominating games" - yes, I feel we did. And I am certain that the possession and shots stats will prove that, save for the Arsenal game where they overran us after Alonso went off injured. Up until that point, we were the better team, despite Torres playing injured.

Torres and Gerrard coming into a game late on when possibly recovering from injury is odd why? All players coming back from injury tend to play a few minutes at the end of a match to get them back up to speed. Gerrard WAS injured (his toe), and Torrs had done a ridiulous amount of traveling previous to the Portsmouth match. Mascherano didn't play that match, or another one for similar reasons, I believe.

It seems that nothing anyone says will sway you from permanently blaming rotation for our shortcomings this season, rather than other obvious elements.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:35 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Gerrard
Alonso
Torres
Carragher
Agger
Hyypia
Pennant
Kewell
Finnan
Riise
Aurelio.

Hardly unremarkable.

Why are you so reluctant to see beyond rotation? I don't remember us "rotating" against Wigan, but we drew that match. I don't remember the much-maligned rotation rearing it's ugly head against the Scum. Arguably our two worst results of the season (At least Reading was away), and rotation wasn't used. Even the Reading match saw the following lineup take to the field:

Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher (Hyypia 81), Hobbs, Riise, Gerrard (Babel 70), Mascherano, Sissoko, Voronin, Torres (Kewell 60), Crouch.

Hardly a massive piece of "tinkering" when you consider the success of the very same system at St James' Park 2 weeks earlier. Torres and Gerrard played from the start. (Yes they were both withdrawn when it became apparent that the game was lost, but that's irrelevant - they were both on for at least an hour, which was plenty of time to make their mark.)

So our 3 worst results of the season - and rotation was used liberally in one, and was none-existent in the other 2.

But it's all rotation's fault...  ???

Firstly the injuries, and there's little point me revisiting this particular point after this go as we're obviously not going to agree on this one Lando.

Alonso was a couple of months therefore long term, similarly Agger and Pennant. The rest were less serious, more "knocks" than injuries, but I go back to my earlier point. I don't think the injuries are unusual either in terms of severity or seriousness in comparison to either previous seasons or to our rivals. You obviously do think the injuries are more significant Lando than I do, which is OK.

At the start of the season, whenever anybody dared to criticise the manager for any decision, whether it was "resting" players after half a dozen games, taking off the player who looked most like scoring a goal in the derby, making 75 changes to the starting lkine-up in the first 15 matches or whatever, they were roundly slagged from the rooftops by many posters including your good self. The abuse on occasions was out of proportion to the argument but no matter, on a good day we got the smiley or the wink and waiut till the end of the season and you'll be eating your words, on a bad day we were clueless gimps. Had you have asked me then, when it all turned to custard what would be the given reason, I would have said injuries. No doubt if I trawled back through the rotation thread where people were nailing their colours to ther mast I predicted it would be injuries. No surprise there mate. I'll come back to the second part of your post in a minute.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:46 pm

bigmick wrote:At the start of the season, whenever anybody dared to criticise the manager for any decision, whether it was "resting" players after half a dozen games, taking off the player who looked most like scoring a goal in the derby, making 75 changes to the starting lkine-up in the first 15 matches or whatever, they were roundly slagged from the rooftops by many posters including your good self. The abuse on occasions was out of proportion to the argument but no matter, on a good day we got the smiley or the wink and waiut till the end of the season and you'll be eating your words, on a bad day we were clueless gimps. Had you have asked me then, when it all turned to custard what would be the given reason, I would have said injuries. No doubt if I trawled back through the rotation thread where people were nailing their colours to ther mast I predicted it would be injuries. No surprise there mate. I'll come back to the second part of your post in a minute.

I do not understand where you're going with this bit...

And I feel that anyone who thinks they know better than Rafa IS a gimp, but there you go.

If people know better, why don't they get off their a*ses and prove it? You can take UEFA coaching badges relatively cheaply now, considering how much such a footballing genius would recoup throughout their successful managerial career.

This "Nailing colours to the mast" is a bit sh*t, too, as the vast majority of those who "nailed" their colours change the f*ckers every 2 minutes. (Present company excepted, of course. :D)

As I've always said - I am pro-Rafa, and whatever methods he deems necessary I will support. Not blindly, not unconditionally - but IMHO he's not done anything to justify the constant abuse he recieves. Particularly as he's won everything worth winning, save for the f*cking English Premiership.

I suppose it's a matter of trust.
Last edited by Lando_Griffin on Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rafa Benitez - An unfinished Legend.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:52 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Why are you so reluctant to see beyond rotation? I don't remember us "rotating" against Wigan, but we drew that match. I don't remember the much-maligned rotation rearing it's ugly head against the Scum. Arguably our two worst results of the season (At least Reading was away), and rotation wasn't used. Even the Reading match saw the following lineup take to the field:

Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher (Hyypia 81), Hobbs, Riise, Gerrard (Babel 70), Mascherano, Sissoko, Voronin, Torres (Kewell 60), Crouch.

Hardly a massive piece of "tinkering" when you consider the success of the very same system at St James' Park 2 weeks earlier. Torres and Gerrard played from the start. (Yes they were both withdrawn when it became apparent that the game was lost, but that's irrelevant - they were both on for at least an hour, which was plenty of time to make their mark.)

So our 3 worst results of the season - and rotation was used liberally in one, and was none-existent in the other 2.

But it's all rotation's fault...  ???

Why am I so reluctant to see beyond rotation? Hmmmm.

The winning of a football match is the result of a whole bunch of elements coming together. Dodgy refs, luck, skill, inspiration, mistakes and no doubt a million others, anticipation, teamwork etc etc etc. Rotation is a small part of that.

The reasons we are not going to challenge for the title are many, to pretend that I "cannot see beyond rotation" makes me a bit sad really TBH. I reckon I must post more theoretical, tactical (Ok boring if people prefer) observations on here than anybody else on the whole forum. If you genuinely believe that I think the ONLY reason we are not going to challenge is purely, simply and absolutely because of rotation then either you don't bother your erse reading my posts (and I can't blame you for that) or I haven't made myself clear. I'll try harder, but please be aware that I believe that a football match or a series of football matches are decided by many issues, not just rotation.

Now the next bit. You say you don't remember us rotating against Wigan. I have to ask why not, it was only this week? Didn't we change the formation completely, bringing Pennant back for his first game after one of the much debated "injuries" and play a kind of 4-5-1?   That said you're right we didn't rotate against Man Utd. I'm not really sure what you mean though by the point, are you saying that we lost because we didn't rotate, or the fact we didn't rotate didn't make any difference? As for the Reading Away game in which we didn't really rotate in, didn't we play a kind of 4-3-3 with Crouch and Voronin as the wide-men? I'm also not sure about people being withdrawn being "irrelavent", but I guess in terms of this discussion it is so no matter. You're quite right though, we did play a similar system to the Reading game away to Newcastle. If we played them every week I have no doubts whatsoever we'd be crowned Champions.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:52 pm

Football injury list

Chelsea
2.1 Michael Essien M 
2.1 Claude Makelele M 
31.12 Petr Cech G 
31.12 Andriy Shevchenko
28.12 Frank Lampard M
26.12 Carvalho D
19.12 John Terry D
7.12 Didier Drogba F
28.11 Florent Malouda

Man U

4.1 Carlos Tevez F
4.1 Wayne Rooney F
26.12 Edwin van der Sar G
7.12 Gary Neville D
23.10 Paul Scholes M
19.9 Mikael Silvestre D 
13.8 Ben Foster

Liverpool

4.1 Jermaine Pennant M 
4.1 Daniel Agger D
28.12 Sami Hyppia D

Now while that is not a complete list of all the injuries sustained by the 3 sides I think it gives an indication that there has been more than our team that has sustained serious loss of players through injury. Best I could find, maybe someone can find better?

LINK

better stats
Last edited by account deleted by request on Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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