Liverpool FC Forum

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:13 am

Rafa defending the formation:

“We were trying to play with two wingers really wide,” Benitez offered. “The idea was to spread the whole team out with Gerrard getting into the box.

News

Rafa Benitez defends Fernando Torres decision

Jan 3 2008

by James Pearce, Liverpool Echo

RAFA BENITEZ defended his decision to play only one up front after last night’s disappointing 1-1 draw with Wigan at Anfield.

The Liverpool boss selected Fernando Torres as a lone striker and the Spaniard was isolated for long periods.

Torres broke the deadlock early in the second half with a neat finish but the Reds failed to kill off the struggling Latics and paid the price when Titus Bramble fired home 10 minutes from time.

Benitez belatedly introduced Peter Crouch and Dirk Kuyt in the closing minutes in a desperate bid to clinch victory but Wigan held on to secure their first ever point against the Reds.

“We were trying to play with two wingers really wide,” Benitez offered. “The idea was to spread the whole team out with Gerrard getting into the box.

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“We had two or three very clear chances and for me not taking them was the key.

“If you play with more strikers and the other team deep is really deep and compact maybe it would be more difficult so we were trying to play with wingers wide to create space. Also we knew they were really good in the air.”

“We had plenty of possession and had chances but we couldn’t score a second goal to kill the game. When you have chances you need to take them.

“When the other team is just defending but has one chance and score from a second ball at a free-kick you have to be really disappointed.”

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:20 am

bigmick wrote:On the question of the pressure issue, now we are out of it and not under any real pressure it wouldn't be the biggest surprise in the World if we started playing well again fairly soon.

but this year there COULD be a serious threat to our top four standing that wasn't really there last year. And it could be argued that that pressure might be greater because you can find ppl that didn't think we had the ponies to run with the big guns all the way this year, but nobody would have expected us not to make the CL, and we would ALL consider it a massive dissapointment as well as an embarrasment.

All that said, I'm not really shakin in my boots at the fact that City is ahead of us right now.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:28 am

Well in fairness Joe if we don't even get in the top four there won't be a debate at the end of the season and rightly so, the manager will be gone. With the players we have at our disposal, we are/were plenty good enough to launch a title challenge and the truth is we've never been in it really (unless you count being toip after five games or so) so there will be a debate and rightly so. But failure to get into the top four would surely see the manager clearing his own desk.

I don't think it'll come to that though. We'll finish fourth without too much bother I would have thought, and I reckon that unless somebody absolutely gallops away with it and takes their foot completely off the pedal in the last few games, we'll be 12-15 points off the top when it all gets added up. Whether that'll be considered good enough we'll have to wait and see, but for my part unless we see a radical overhaul of the selection methods and/or a Champions League win then I think we will probably call it quits at the end of the season.

by **red_guy** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:50 am

holylamb2006 wrote:I think we should forget this game and get behind our manager and team

Yes, we all should.

by **skatesy** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:58 am

heimdall wrote:
roberto green wrote:I have always said Benitez has had my backing when people have slagged him off but for the first time i am starting to seriously question his judgement,he is clearly a very good manager but there is seriously something missing and i am now stating to believe he will never win the league due to his rotation.

We need a creative player so much somene special who has that touch like a Litmanen or Mcallister type player who is cool and has a brain...

I'd still love Robbie Keane he would be perfect for us.

I'm getting a bit tired of people saying that Rafa is a great manager, what are you basing this on, putting on two strikers in the 83rd minute?? Yeah that is real genius!!

His record alone. He has one of the best winning percentages of any manager who has ever managed Liverpool. And, for the record, Rafa Benitez DOES have a better winning record than even Shankly.

by **skatesy** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:59 am

heimdall wrote:
roberto green wrote:I have always said Benitez has had my backing when people have slagged him off but for the first time i am starting to seriously question his judgement,he is clearly a very good manager but there is seriously something missing and i am now stating to believe he will never win the league due to his rotation.

We need a creative player so much somene special who has that touch like a Litmanen or Mcallister type player who is cool and has a brain...

I'd still love Robbie Keane he would be perfect for us.

I'm getting a bit tired of people saying that Rafa is a great manager, what are you basing this on, putting on two strikers in the 83rd minute?? Yeah that is real genius!!

His record alone. He has one of the best winning percentages of any manager who has ever managed Liverpool. And, for the record, Rafa Benitez DOES have a better winning record than even Shankly.

by **burjennio** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:27 pm

red_guy Posted on Jan. 04 2008,07:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (holylamb2006 @ Jan. 04 2008,04:11)
I think we should forget this game and get behind our manager and team

Yes, we all should

I think most of us are behind the team and manager, but are all just letting off a little steam after what most of us to consider to be a poor performance and result - Everyone will be 100% behind the lads come Sunday and the FA Cup tie with Luton

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:46 pm

1 striker, at home, against a team batling relegation? 2 holding midfielders? It's complete nonsense if you ask me.

Pennant back in from the cold. No Crouch? Babel not even in the 16.

Baffling.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:51 pm

skatesy wrote:
heimdall wrote:
roberto green wrote:I have always said Benitez has had my backing when people have slagged him off but for the first time i am starting to seriously question his judgement,he is clearly a very good manager but there is seriously something missing and i am now stating to believe he will never win the league due to his rotation.

We need a creative player so much somene special who has that touch like a Litmanen or Mcallister type player who is cool and has a brain...

I'd still love Robbie Keane he would be perfect for us.

I'm getting a bit tired of people saying that Rafa is a great manager, what are you basing this on, putting on two strikers in the 83rd minute?? Yeah that is real genius!!

His record alone. He has one of the best winning percentages of any manager who has ever managed Liverpool. And, for the record, Rafa Benitez DOES have a better winning record than even Shankly.

You have to take into account the points system was different back then, win at home, draw away, was the way to the title in the "good old days", now a draw is seen as a poor result. So its not really a fair comparison.

Money wasn't as big a part of the game either, now it would be amazing if one of the little clubs managed to break into the top 4, back then it was a regular occurence. All the teams had star players, because players tended to stay with their clubs.

Today any team that unearths a star would be innundated with offers from the top clubs.

I agree that we are crying out for a creative player, we have great passers great athletes, players with great skill, but we are short of someone with creativity and a great football brain.

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:55 pm

Of the 10 starting outfield players who started the other night, I think I'm right in saying that only two have scored more than 1 goal this year and we all know who those two are. Infact all but three hadn't scored at all.

That's the big problem.

by **Sabre** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:59 pm

Bad Bob wrote:You know, you'd get the impression reading this thread that Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea had never, ever played 4-3-3/4-5-1 before. It's used plenty by the very top teams in the league, folks, and it's not a negative formation just because it only uses one striker. Hell, it wasn't negative when we stuck four past Arsenal last season, with Crouch up top by himself!

Let's break it down a little. We went to Man City on Sunday and played 4-4-2 against a team that stuck 10 and at times 11 men behind the ball. We barely got a whiff of goal all game and came away with only a point. So, fast forward to last night and Wigan comes to town under Steve Bruce--the same Steve Bruce who knows a thing or two about parking the bus at Anfield and keeping a clean sheet. Do we just approach the game the same way we did Sunday or do we shake it up?

Let's look at the personnel. Scharner and Bramble are big, strong lads who are quite good in the air, whereas their fullbacks consist of a mediocre player past his prime and a converted mediocre midfielder past his prime. Why not play two out and out wide men in support of Torres? Ideally, Kewell and Pennant would allow us to stretch the play, pull the fullbacks out to the touchlines and create space for Torres to operate in and for Gerrard to bomb into from a deeper position. Alonso sits a little deeper and is responsible for switching play and keeping the fullbacks pinned back. Mascherano mops up, whilst Aurelio and Finnan provide attacking support down the flanks on the overlap to maintain width when the wingers cut in field. Tactically, it makes a lot of sense and it wasn't working half-bad either.

It wasn't the system that let us down last night--it was poor finishing (again) and a costly defensive mistake late on.

Well I don't care I'm slagged off for this, it's my opinion.

The result against Wigan was not good enough, but you can't blame the formation. It's not negative. Didn't we count several chances in the first half plus a couple of doubtful offsides?

The team had a couple of disadjustments in defence, but that was due to Arbeloa's lack of compenetration with Carra, you could see that in a couple of balls which they both tried to clear (mistake) and the other disadjustment came in their goal. It was after all a set pieces situation.

The team under this "negative" tactic controlled the midfield, you could see that Gerrard didn't actually play as a second striker because he went deep (own half even) to start some plays when the other midfielders where too watched. The team had mobility, and our goal came in an excellent movement of surprise of Finnan. You could see Mascherano being covered by Alonso, and also Alonso in more advanced positions.

You also played 2 attacking and pure wingers. For me, yesterday's formation was the best to beat Steve Bruce's "Maturana's killing of spaces". They way wigan played, starting the press in their own half, and an advanced space to get small the pitch was brought to europe by the colombian Valderrama.

So yesterday we made mistakes, Kewell had a hard afternoon with Melchot, Pennant paid the lack of games, and we lacked accuracy scoring, but in my book, we played the right tactic, which was not negative but clever. So you're not alone on this.

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:01 pm

saint was making the point the other that rafa rarely plays 2 "out and out wingers" in the same side. apart from wigan, the only other time i can remember him doing it was besiktas away when we ended up getting beat. if you're going to play two genuine wingers who can cross a ball, it doesn't make sense not to play crouch. it made even less sense in turkey, when we played kuyt and voronin, who rarely get in the box, let alone head the ball.

by **Sabre** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:02 pm

Shít, bloody glitch. I meant Maturana, not Valderrama.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:18 pm

Sabre wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:You know, you'd get the impression reading this thread that Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea had never, ever played 4-3-3/4-5-1 before. It's used plenty by the very top teams in the league, folks, and it's not a negative formation just because it only uses one striker. Hell, it wasn't negative when we stuck four past Arsenal last season, with Crouch up top by himself!

Let's break it down a little. We went to Man City on Sunday and played 4-4-2 against a team that stuck 10 and at times 11 men behind the ball. We barely got a whiff of goal all game and came away with only a point. So, fast forward to last night and Wigan comes to town under Steve Bruce--the same Steve Bruce who knows a thing or two about parking the bus at Anfield and keeping a clean sheet. Do we just approach the game the same way we did Sunday or do we shake it up?

Let's look at the personnel. Scharner and Bramble are big, strong lads who are quite good in the air, whereas their fullbacks consist of a mediocre player past his prime and a converted mediocre midfielder past his prime. Why not play two out and out wide men in support of Torres? Ideally, Kewell and Pennant would allow us to stretch the play, pull the fullbacks out to the touchlines and create space for Torres to operate in and for Gerrard to bomb into from a deeper position. Alonso sits a little deeper and is responsible for switching play and keeping the fullbacks pinned back. Mascherano mops up, whilst Aurelio and Finnan provide attacking support down the flanks on the overlap to maintain width when the wingers cut in field. Tactically, it makes a lot of sense and it wasn't working half-bad either.

It wasn't the system that let us down last night--it was poor finishing (again) and a costly defensive mistake late on.

Well I don't care I'm slagged off for this, it's my opinion.

The result against Wigan was not good enough, but you can't blame the formation. It's not negative. Didn't we count several chances in the first half plus a couple of doubtful offsides?

The team had a couple of disadjustments in defence, but that was due to Arbeloa's lack of compenetration with Carra, you could see that in a couple of balls which they both tried to clear (mistake) and the other disadjustment came in their goal. It was after all a set pieces situation.

The team under this "negative" tactic controlled the midfield, you could see that Gerrard didn't actually play as a second striker because he went deep (own half even) to start some plays when the other midfielders where too watched. The team had mobility, and our goal came in an excellent movement of surprise of Finnan. You could see Mascherano being covered by Alonso, and also Alonso in more advanced positions.

You also played 2 attacking and pure wingers. For me, yesterday's formation was the best to beat Steve Bruce's "Maturana's killing of spaces". They way wigan played, starting the press in their own half, and an advanced space to get small the pitch was brought to europe by the colombian Valderrama.

So yesterday we made mistakes, Kewell had a hard afternoon with Melchot, Pennant paid the lack of games, and we lacked accuracy scoring, but in my book, we played the right tactic, which was not negative but clever. So you're not alone on this.

Consider yourself slagged off. It was LIVERPOOL against Wigan, we could have played 6-2-1-1 and we would still have created chances. The fact is that we only converted one chance, maybe if we had created more chances and had more people on the pitch who haven't forgotten how to score we would have got 3 or 4.

Wigan played 10 men behind the ball, I think its safe to say you would expect us to have plenty possession . As far as I am aware no one has said its a negative tactic playing 4-5-1, just a bad one for Liverpool. It doesn't suit the way we play, our striker ALWAYS GETS ISOLATED. Rafa got it wrong!

As stu would say get a fkn clue, end of.

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:19 pm

bigmick wrote:Well in fairness Joe if we don't even get in the top four there won't be a debate at the end of the season and rightly so, the manager will be gone. With the players we have at our disposal, we are/were plenty good enough to launch a title challenge and the truth is we've never been in it really (unless you count being toip after five games or so) so there will be a debate and rightly so. But failure to get into the top four would surely see the manager clearing his own desk.

I don't think it'll come to that though. We'll finish fourth without too much bother I would have thought, and I reckon that unless somebody absolutely gallops away with it and takes their foot completely off the pedal in the last few games, we'll be 12-15 points off the top when it all gets added up. Whether that'll be considered good enough we'll have to wait and see, but for my part unless we see a radical overhaul of the selection methods and/or a Champions League win then I think we will probably call it quits at the end of the season.

I hope that we can get off this blip, and that is one of your better points about your critizism of Rafa's reign. The blips are not short enough and possibly occur too often as well. It cannot be argued that he is a complete failure because we have won trophies and we have also shown that we can play really well (even over a stretch of games too) but it is the crisis management to stop the bleeding as soon as it starts as well as getting wins over the big 3 (which I think is slightly overrated).

I agree that if we finish 16+ points off, Rafa has a good chance of going (and i would very reluctently say deservedly)

I think we should make top 4 though, 95% sure of that. I was just saying tht you contributed some of our bad form of late due to the must win pressure to stay in the chase for the league. you also argued that now that this pressure is off because the league is out of reach, we in theory, might start to actually play better. I was just arguing that if it is a close race the pressure to finish top 4 might be bigger because that would be an embarrassment if we fail, while not winning the league was probably expected of most.

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