Liverpool FC Forum

by **VamosRafa** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:46 pm

I think the over the top reactions on this thread are fair. For me, this result is the straw that breaks the camels back. The seasons been so dissapointing in terms of the league. Not just from a results but from a performances point of view. I'll put them into 3 categories, in order to illustrate this;
1) convincing controlled victories
Sunderland (2-0) Derby (6-0) Fulham (2-0) Newcastle (3-0) Bolton (4-0) Portsmouth (4-1)

2) smash and grab victories
Villa (2-1) Wigan (away 1-0) Derby (away 2-1) Everton (2-1)

3)inability to break down or finish off weaker opposition & disapointing performances
Portsmouth (0-0) Birmingham (0-0) Spurs (2-2) Blackburn (0-0) Reading (1-3) Man City (0-0) Wigan (0-0) Man Utd (0-1)

I've left out the Chelsea (1-1) and Arsenal (1-1) games, needless to say i was disapointed with both results.

I know they say the hallmark of a great team is picking up results when your playing badly, but it's impossible to pick up points when your playing badly the majority of the time. What can we put this down to, the players? Bad luck? Or the man whose job it is to buy players, and motivate them? I thinks it's completely ridiculous the way anyone who questions Benitez on this forum, is immediately ridiculed from all directions and jumped upon like he's just blasphemed in front of the Pope. How many times has rafa's tactics cost us this season, with him trying some bizarre 4-5-1/4-3-3, or sitting back until the last 10 minutes of games before he realises they have to be won. It's all very well being able to out-wit Rijkard and get a victory at the Nou Camp, but when you drop 4 points to Steve Bruce at home in one season, alarm bells must surely start ringing! The basic fact is we've only had one spell of title-contender form under Rafa which was the second half of the 05/06 when we already out of the title race by September. Now were out of the title race by January ( though some might point to that as progress!) and the same-old problems are rearing there head.

We find ourselves in a very difficult situation now.
If rafa goes it with completely rip the guts out of the club. Every aspect of the team relies so heavily on him, in a similar way to Wenger at Arsenal. It would not be as easy a transition as Mourhinos departure at Chelsea. If he goes it's possible Reina, Torres, Alonso, Mascherano will soon follow, effectively removing the spine of the team. There is also theyouth system which has been seized and completely taken over by Benitez after Heighway was forced out. That will have to be completely overhauled, with the 37 "young startlets" that Benitez has signed becoming disorientated and a waste of time. We'd also have the problem of his replacement, who'd take at least a season to make the club his own, as well as needing his own money to invest.

If he stays, can we expect his methods to ever win us the title? My honest gut feeling is no, unless he somehow gets the whole team to start playing again (not just Torres & Gerrard), and bring in players of quality.
I say we give him until the end of the season to prove himself, IN THE LEAGUE and we'll go from there.
After a 3rd crack of the whip under Benitez with money to spend, (i'd say the first season was a write off) the title is beyond our grasp again and it's only january, happy feckin new year

by **heimdall** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:01 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
burjennio wrote:
Emerald Red Posted on Jan. 03 2008,12:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (s@int @ Jan. 03 2008,12:15)
Like our title chances this thread is fkd up

In more ways than one. Some of the posts I've read on here since last night are a disgrace.

Emerald there is always an influx of doombringers after a poor result but by now you should realize that these are mostly fans like you and I who are so frustrated by the cack like they got treated to last night they have to let of some steam and talk out out with fellow supporters, and the easiest place to do that is on a forum like this one. Up until the last few matches I tended to agree with you that there was too much over-reaction to performances and results especially with the injuries to key players. However, last nights game really spelt out to me all the things that I have come to believe are wrong with Rafa's approach to the game, these arn't things he should be sacked for, but things he should be looking to inprove on I dont want to repeat myself from my earlier post but to summarise

a. Unnecessary tactical ploys eg 451 at home.
b. not enough belief in attack
c. unwillingness to make changes when required. eg 75mins to substitute a player performing well below an acceptable level ie. Kewell
d. playing players out of position rather than natural fits eg. Kuyt and Voronin on the wings, Arbeloa at CH (could he really not have played Hobbs against Wigan at home?
e. not facing up to poor performances eg. last night, Besiktas away, we did NOT create enough chances and passing the ball about the half way line is not controlling the game

These are not insurmountable problems and can all be rectified with a change of thinking, whether or not Rafa can show he's willing to change remains to be seen

Yes, and as per usual (from experience) reading some of their posts sounds like they are just writing on impulse. Their posts, or opinions, just can't be taken seriously. There's no balance. No yin and yang. Just negative drivel like "sack Rafa now" or "Klinsmann for manager". Just because they heard it in the garbage press that apparently two clueless Yanks want Klinsmann in, they assume he's the best man for the job without actually knowing what the facts are, or indeed anything about the man at all. It's a joke. If you're going to come in here spouting that bollox, at least give clear indications on why you think it's the best course of action to take.

It seems the number of people wanting rid of Rafa is growing all the time, it's no fun when most poeple disagree with you is it Emerald. I should know as most poeple have been disagreeing with me on this forum but I've been asking for Rafa to leave for ages now.

Can you please explain to me what exactly is so great about Rafa because I don't see it. I see a very average manager who seems to have lost the respect of the players, they certainly don't play with any great degree of passion. I don't understand how Rafa is a tactical genius when he fecks around with the formations and plays people out of position, maybe you have a different point of view and can enlighten me. I don't understand how someone who realistically thinks he will sign a player against against Red noses wishes can have a firm grasp on reality let alone the workings of the premership!!

It is time for rafa to leave, he's had his chance and enough moeny and has not proven himself.

by **heimdall** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:01 pm

It seems the number of people wanting rid of Rafa is growing all the time, it's no fun when most people disagree with you is it Emerald. I should know as most people have been disagreeing with me on this forum but I've been asking for Rafa to leave for ages now.

Can you please explain to me what exactly is so great about Rafa because I don't see it. I see a very average manager who seems to have lost the respect of the players, they certainly don't play with any great degree of passion. I don't understand how Rafa is a tactical genius when he fecks around with the formations and plays people out of position, maybe you have a different point of view and can enlighten me. I don't understand how someone who realistically thinks he will sign a player against against Red noses wishes can have a firm grasp on reality let alone the workings of the premership!!

It is time for rafa to leave, he's had his chance and enough moeny and has not proven himself.

by **burjennio** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:23 pm

I cant see anybodies post past my last 1 at 13:36. if anybody can see this post all is not lost

by **big daddy** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:57 pm

personally i think we are missing the one person responsible for us reaching 2 champions league final and winning a fa cup.

this person provided all the drive and motivation we needed .
without this person motivational words we would not have done half as well over the last 4 years under rafa.

thats right folks i think jose morinho was responsible for the motivation a drive.
without his jibes at liverpool and the players,they would not have done much.

last season jose was quiet at the start and liverpool started badly,then he started his usual jibes at liverpool and instantly our form picked. the same thing happened the season before that.

i think rafa is mainly about tactics and not much motivational skills,which is why he used jose to motivate his players by going on about chelsea buying the title.

i fall asleep listening to rafa...once a week,god help the players who have to here him everyday.
i expect rafa to fall out with wenger or fergie as a way of motivating his team,maybe even wind up sven.

by **woof woof !** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:58 pm

During his reign I've had several whinges about Rafa but in my heart of hearts I've always felt he was the man for the job . I now finally find myself seriously thinking that maybe after all he isn't. The fella has certainly restored us as one of the most respected teams in Europe and football people will still be talking about "Istanbul" when all in this forum are long dead and buried, but in the world of NOW he's failed in real terms to actually take us any closer to winning the premiership than we were on the day he arrived.

Is it disloyal or fickle to expect a manager, who's been given a fair wedge of cash since he took over, too produce a Liverpool team in the 4th season of his management that look like serious contenders for the premiership title ? I don't think so . I'm not even expecting him to win the bloody thing , just keep us in with a realistic shout until the last 2-3 weeks of the season at least.

As much as it pains me to say it , I think Rafa's reputation at Liverpool is currently resting solely on the foundation of his and the teams exploits in Europe. I don't think that is still good enough , for the owners and the fans. I for one would be sorry to see him shown the door, but a part of me is beginning to wonder if maybe , and it's still only a maybe, Rafa has now become the problem rather than the solution.

Don't ask me who I'd replace him with , depending on my alcohol intake my response could range from Paul Jewell to Slaven Bilic via Phil Scholari and Martin O'Neil. My preferred choice would be a succesfull Rafa Benitez, regrettably I don't think we'll see that one.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:58 pm

VamosRafa wrote:I think the over the top reactions on this thread are fair. For me, this result is the straw that breaks the camels back. The seasons been so dissapointing in terms of the league. Not just from a results but from a performances point of view. I'll put them into 3 categories, in order to illustrate this;
1) convincing controlled victories
Sunderland (2-0) Derby (6-0) Fulham (2-0) Newcastle (3-0) Bolton (4-0) Portsmouth (4-1)

2) smash and grab victories
Villa (2-1) Wigan (away 1-0) Derby (away 2-1) Everton (2-1)

3)inability to break down or finish off weaker opposition & disapointing performances
Portsmouth (0-0) Birmingham (0-0) Spurs (2-2) Blackburn (0-0) Reading (1-3) Man City (0-0) Wigan (0-0) Man Utd (0-1)

I've left out the Chelsea (1-1) and Arsenal (1-1) games, needless to say i was disapointed with both results.

I know they say the hallmark of a great team is picking up results when your playing badly, but it's impossible to pick up points when your playing badly the majority of the time. What can we put this down to, the players? Bad luck? Or the man whose job it is to buy players, and motivate them? I thinks it's completely ridiculous the way anyone who questions Benitez on this forum, is immediately ridiculed from all directions and jumped upon like he's just blasphemed in front of the Pope. How many times has rafa's tactics cost us this season, with him trying some bizarre 4-5-1/4-3-3, or sitting back until the last 10 minutes of games before he realises they have to be won. It's all very well being able to out-wit Rijkard and get a victory at the Nou Camp, but when you drop 4 points to Steve Bruce at home in one season, alarm bells must surely start ringing! The basic fact is we've only had one spell of title-contender form under Rafa which was the second half of the 05/06 when we already out of the title race by September. Now were out of the title race by January ( though some might point to that as progress!) and the same-old problems are rearing there head.

We find ourselves in a very difficult situation now.
If rafa goes it with completely rip the guts out of the club. Every aspect of the team relies so heavily on him, in a similar way to Wenger at Arsenal. It would not be as easy a transition as Mourhinos departure at Chelsea. If he goes it's possible Reina, Torres, Alonso, Mascherano will soon follow, effectively removing the spine of the team. There is also theyouth system which has been seized and completely taken over by Benitez after Heighway was forced out. That will have to be completely overhauled, with the 37 "young startlets" that Benitez has signed becoming disorientated and a waste of time. We'd also have the problem of his replacement, who'd take at least a season to make the club his own, as well as needing his own money to invest.

If he stays, can we expect his methods to ever win us the title? My honest gut feeling is no, unless he somehow gets the whole team to start playing again (not just Torres & Gerrard), and bring in players of quality.
I say we give him until the end of the season to prove himself, IN THE LEAGUE and we'll go from there.
After a 3rd crack of the whip under Benitez with money to spend, (i'd say the first season was a write off) the title is beyond our grasp again and it's only january, happy feckin new year

top post Vamos.

by **redtrader74** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:05 pm

I took the missus to her first game last night and it was a fcking waste of money, not that i expect a win everytime, but FFS i expect the committment, effort and game play to be at 100%, which it just wasn't, a lot of the players looked as though they couldn't be bothered, maybe it was too cold for the poor luvs. I know that we outplayed them and that they offered very little threat, but IMO we played within ourselves, and should have easily put the game to bed by the end of the first half. We have got to kill off sides, all teams in the prem have the ability to score at least one goal.

Personally i did not mind the set up of the team, it doesn't neccesarily mean it is one up front, the system allows the spare man, Gerrard, to join in attack, as can both wingers.

At the start Xabi ran aroung like a headless chicken because he did not know what position he was meant to be in, but got better as the game got on. The idiot in black should have booked Brown, he was hacking our lads all over the park. Mascherano played well, but he along with SG should have scored from their easy chances, and we would have coasted to a win, in this instance we were let down by the players.

The wingers were useless, Kewells career with us should be over because physically he cannot attain the level we need, he was shoved off the ball easily, and has lost his pace, i have hoped he would come back to his old form and he has done for a few minutes here and there, but for LFC it is not good enough, and sentiment and hope are not going to win us anything. Pennant on the other hand is a thick lazy :censored:

, off the ball he does fck all, he makes no space for himself, and however much Finnan tried to direct him, made no runs or angles for the pass. This was not just last night, its everytime i've seen him live, he looks OK on the telly, but not in the flesh.

Wigan were not even trying, apart from Browns hacking, only Bent and Valencia gave us any trouble, and Aurelio was exposed a few times, but i would like to see him play a few games in a row.

Any chance of the of the title are practically gone, especially given the run in, its not impossible, but we are now relying on the teams above us disintegrating and for us to win at least 15 of our remaining games. My problem with Rafa is that we have bought players well below our required standard, and persisted with shot players and those no longer good enough, Pennant, Kuyt, Voronin, Crouch for the former, and Kewell, Riise, Sissoko. Time is not on his side we are a far more impatient footballing crowd than we used to be, although i still believe he would eventually win us the title, he needs to stop building so much for the future and start biulding for the present, Moores may have given him the time but the Americans won't.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:10 pm

My problem with Rafa is that we have bought players well below our required standard, and persisted with shot players and those no longer good enough, Pennant, Kuyt, Voronin, Crouch for the former, and Kewell, Riise, Sissoko.

But you've been saying all season rotation isnt the problem, but surely it is if he's rotating the players you've just mentioned in and out the side.

by **Reg** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:11 pm

As Emerald suggests, some of the recent posts are verging on anarchy against which some of mine have been obviously flippant in response. (no I havent found the source of the oil leak yet....)

However I would hazard an observation. Rafa enjoyed momentary glory when he took on the owners last month and received massive support from the fans. Its a double edged sword as the owners backed off and no doubt feeling pretty embarrassed will grasp any dip in form to seek revenge - its human instinct so Rafa has made a rod for his own back.

Of ocurse the flip side of the coin is that Rafa had his tiff because he felt our problem is that we cant beat Wigan at home and he needs funds to bring in the right players.

If all else fails though and Rafa fallas on his sword, Maureen is the only credible replacement.

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:16 pm

holylamb2006 wrote:just a few signings brought in by rafa :

Josemi Voronin
Nunez Kuyt
Pellegrino
Benayoun
Gonzalez

AND wat is the craic with Rafa buying 14-16 year olds ?? ?? ??

i'm ok with rafa buying these youngsters but PLS play them , they are never gonna improve if they do not get a feel of the premier league , they need to adapt and then only can they play . Pls the league is out already , how much worse can it get given our current situation , Rafa has to improve on this and start building now for next season , if he is still here

by **redtrader74** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:19 pm

Thats right rotation is not necessarily the problem, the system and team selection have been, for example the defeat to reading, IMO the system was ok, but it was not right to have Crouch on the wing. Also i am not as good as you at evaluating players, i need to see them over some time, and Kuyt has not improved on his first year, Voronin IMO after having seen him a few times, not up to standard, and will not be. Kewell, Riise, Sissoko have dropped their level of play are are No longer good enough.

Not wanting to turn this inot a rotation debate, fck me it might wake Big mick up :laugh:

, but we have won plenty of games whilst rotating, FACT, so rotating is not necessarily the problem, but who you employ to fill the positions could be.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:19 pm

F*ck me, did we lose?

No? Didn't think so...

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:19 pm

metalhead wrote:You blame the lineup? just the read the comments while back, they were saying with that lineup we should beat them, but hey ho thats football we didn't win why? not the line up, not negative tactics from rafa, ITS JUST WE ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH! some of our players are not good enough, crouch and kuyt wouldn't have made a difference if they came on 50th minute or 60th minute (maybe crouch), because they are not good enough. We lack quality.

How do u know that for sure . Are u god ? can u see into the future , its bullsh!t that he brings on a 2nd striker with only 9 minutes to go . Substitutes do have the impact , its just a matter of when you bring them on and how u utilise them

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:22 pm

LittleHobo wrote:
holylamb2006 wrote:just a few signings brought in by rafa :

Josemi Voronin
Nunez Kuyt
Pellegrino
Benayoun
Gonzalez

AND wat is the craic with Rafa buying 14-16 year olds ?? ?? ??

i add pennant into that aswell

hes an average winger, alright if we wanna finish top 6 but he isnt good enough for a title challenge

Pennant is good , i dunno what match u been watching , he was by far our best player yesterday apart from torres , he put in 3 or 4 good crosses and we did not take advantage of those , We need a box to box player and a natural poacher.

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