Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:25 pm

stmichael wrote:The thing is that a lot of people are, after the last few results, suddenly very upset that we probably won't be winning the league again this year. People were quite frankly fooling themselves if they thought we would actually win it but I can't see how it's unsurprising and time to call for Rafa's head again. How are we realistically supposed to finish above the mancs without really, REALLY strengthening the playing staff with some world-class players?

There was a gap there before that is likely to be about the same again. Are we going to close that gap by watching them sign Berbatov and Lahm while we sign Wayne Bridge? No. We're not. Are we going to close the gap on Chelsea if they sign Anelka and David Villa while we stick with Kuyt and Voronin? No. We're not.

I agree Stmichael but you then have to ask who brought the Kuyts and Voronin's to this club.

Rafa has brought in some great players Alonso, Reina, Mascherano, Agger, Torres, but along with these great players we have bought so much dross and too many failures.

People argue that he gets rid of his mistakes, but by that time another season has been wasted another chance has been lost and another year when our rivals have spent big and improved.

We needed a big influx of money to catch up in a season, because the other teams arn't standing still while we slowly improve our team.

Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy, Kuyt ,Voronin even Babel. Thats a lot of time and money lost. Our rivals can afford to make mistakes in the market, unfortunately we can't. We are constantly trying to play catch up and unless we spend MORE THAN OUR RIVALS it doesn't look like we ever will.

We are after players like Wayne FKN Bridge, while they are squabbling over Berbatov and Anelka, with no doubt glances towards Mascherano into the bargain.

by **Yessicajax** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:28 pm

Big Niall wrote:Babel £12m,Kuyt£10m, Crouch £8m, Pennant £5m, Sissoko £4m, that is nearly £40m spent on players that don't strenthen our first team.

WE could have bought two top players for that (Torres cost about £20m so lets use that as the going rate for quality).

A smaller squad with better players and less rotation is the way to go.

Sorry...But i think Babel can still be a big player for u guys..
(And that is not cause im a big babel fan.)
Also In the Begin kuyt(yea yea i gonna say something good about Kuyt :glare:

) Did very good things for you guys.
and crouch...is he not good enough? that suprise me..cause i think liverpool really need a player like this.
When he come in the team, Most of the time the team play different (in a good way) if u know what i mean. :;):

-x-

by **maguskwt** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:31 pm

s@int wrote:
stmichael wrote:The thing is that a lot of people are, after the last few results, suddenly very upset that we probably won't be winning the league again this year. People were quite frankly fooling themselves if they thought we would actually win it but I can't see how it's unsurprising and time to call for Rafa's head again. How are we realistically supposed to finish above the mancs without really, REALLY strengthening the playing staff with some world-class players?

There was a gap there before that is likely to be about the same again. Are we going to close that gap by watching them sign Berbatov and Lahm while we sign Wayne Bridge? No. We're not. Are we going to close the gap on Chelsea if they sign Anelka and David Villa while we stick with Kuyt and Voronin? No. We're not.

I agree Stmichael but you then have to ask who brought the Kuyts and Voronin's to this club.

Rafa has brought in some great players Alonso, Reina, Mascherano, Agger, Torres, but along with these great players we have bought so much dross and too many failures.

People argue that he gets rid of his mistakes, but by that time another season has been wasted another chance has been lost and another year when our rivals have spent big and improved.

We needed a big influx of money to catch up in a season, because the other teams arn't standing still while we slowly improve our team.

Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy, Kuyt ,Voronin even Babel. Thats a lot of time and money lost. Our rivals can afford to make mistakes in the market, unfortunately we can't. We are constantly trying to play catch up and unless we spend MORE THAN OUR RIVALS it doesn't look like we ever will.

We are after players like Wayne FKN Bridge, while they are squabbling over Berbatov and Anelka, with no doubt glances towards Mascherano into the bargain.

very true...

by **lakes10** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:36 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:I don't believe our team is not good enough to beat Wigan, Portsmouth, Birmingham, Reading etc etc. Maybe not good enough to beat the mancs, Chelsea, Arsenal, but its more than good enough to beat the Wigans of this world.

If we can't beat these "little teams" it shows we have problems, problems with tactics , motivation, not enough matchwinners, rotation, formation, balance,not picking our best team...... take your pick of excuses.

We can beat the best teams in Europe but we arn't good enough to beat Wigan? I don't think so.

If the little teams always lost to the big teams then we would be watching a different game.

Watch the games this weekend to see that sometimes this beautiful game can mean that a small ground with the fans right on top of the pitch can mean a team three divisions lower is on an an equal footing with Premier LEague teams.

So you think its because Rafa cant motivate the team well enough then Leon?

Or are you saying that Anfield is a small ground with the fans on top of the pitch motivating our opponents. Its been at Anfield that we have lost our title challenge, not away mate.

you said that if we cant beat little teams it shows we have problems, I suggested that little teams do sometimes win.

Do Arsenal have problems after losing at Boro ?

United lost at West Ham, City and Bolton, are they up sh.it creek ?

Chelsea lost at Villa so does this mean thay are in crisis ?

We only lost to Reading of the little teams, drawign games has been our problem, and not killing off teams or not having the craft to break through them.

But why dont we kill teams off, our team takes the lead and then we sit back or take off our best players, that must be down to the manager??

its a bit of a strange one, bit like the GH thing, push for 10 sit back for 5.

by **FRfanatic** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:46 pm

Big Niall wrote:Babel £12m,Kuyt£10m, Crouch £8m, Pennant £5m, Sissoko £4m, that is nearly £40m spent on players that don't strenthen our first team.

WE could have bought two top players for that (Torres cost about £20m so lets use that as the going rate for quality).

A smaller squad with better players and less rotation is the way to go.

Last two games pointed out that also a worldclass player has it's weak moments and games. To say that with only 2 worldclass players we win the PL is a little too easy according to me. IMO you need in every line (back, front, and middle ) an above than average player and a leader on the pitch. Also a coach who is not too tacticle and just want to win every game and wants the players to enjoy the game.
In that respect I still think LFC has the team able to beat every team in the world.
At least this team should be able to beat Derby

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:53 pm

The_Rock wrote:Human need to be motivated. All the best managers in the world know how to motivate their players.....Rafa lacks massively in this area.

How do you know this ?

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:53 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:I don't believe our team is not good enough to beat Wigan, Portsmouth, Birmingham, Reading etc etc. Maybe not good enough to beat the mancs, Chelsea, Arsenal, but its more than good enough to beat the Wigans of this world.

If we can't beat these "little teams" it shows we have problems, problems with tactics , motivation, not enough matchwinners, rotation, formation, balance,not picking our best team...... take your pick of excuses.

We can beat the best teams in Europe but we arn't good enough to beat Wigan? I don't think so.

If the little teams always lost to the big teams then we would be watching a different game.

Watch the games this weekend to see that sometimes this beautiful game can mean that a small ground with the fans right on top of the pitch can mean a team three divisions lower is on an an equal footing with Premier LEague teams.

So you think its because Rafa cant motivate the team well enough then Leon?

Or are you saying that Anfield is a small ground with the fans on top of the pitch motivating our opponents. Its been at Anfield that we have lost our title challenge, not away mate.

you said that if we cant beat little teams it shows we have problems, I suggested that little teams do sometimes win.

Do Arsenal have problems after losing at Boro ?

United lost at West Ham, City and Bolton, are they up sh.it creek ?

Chelsea lost at Villa so does this mean thay are in crisis ?

We only lost to Reading of the little teams, drawign games has been our problem, and not killing off teams or not having the craft to break through them.

I always thought that if you draw a game that meant you had failed to beat a side! Its not drawing or losing one game though is it Leon , its failing to beat lots of teams that has cost us, and strangely enough its usually been when Rafa has been fkn about with the formation, or not playing our best players because they don't suit that particular game , or resting players for no apparent reason.

All that cr@p about playing between the lines and Birmingham defending deep. WTF ? So then he plays the player against the same manager playing the same 11 men behind the ball defending deep tactics?

Its laughable mate

Rafa has made too many mistakes this season, thats not to say the players haven't done their fair share of letting the club down, and that we obviously are still short of quality and creativity.

I have no problems with rotation, but when he starts changing the formation as well its bound to add to the confusion.

A player gets told who he will be playing with 1 hour before a game, so he not only has to get his mind right for who he will be playing with and what their particular strengths and weaknesses are, he has to adapt to a different formation, that may or may not play to his own strengths and weaknesses.

If you told a great pianist, that you didn't want him playing the piano but to have a go on the banjo would you expect a world class performance? Or an orchestra to all change instruments and perform just as well.

The reason these small teams occasionally get results against top sides is because they are up for the game (motivation), with every player knowing his job (they dont have the luxury of a huge squad) their pitch is usually of a poor standard (levels the skill factor) and playing a formation they believe in.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GAMES AT ANFIELD not on some third division ground with more holes and lumps than turf.

Rafa really has only himself to blame in my honest opinion.

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:57 pm

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:I don't believe our team is not good enough to beat Wigan, Portsmouth, Birmingham, Reading etc etc. Maybe not good enough to beat the mancs, Chelsea, Arsenal, but its more than good enough to beat the Wigans of this world.

If we can't beat these "little teams" it shows we have problems, problems with tactics , motivation, not enough matchwinners, rotation, formation, balance,not picking our best team...... take your pick of excuses.

We can beat the best teams in Europe but we arn't good enough to beat Wigan? I don't think so.

If the little teams always lost to the big teams then we would be watching a different game.

Watch the games this weekend to see that sometimes this beautiful game can mean that a small ground with the fans right on top of the pitch can mean a team three divisions lower is on an an equal footing with Premier LEague teams.

So you think its because Rafa cant motivate the team well enough then Leon?

Or are you saying that Anfield is a small ground with the fans on top of the pitch motivating our opponents. Its been at Anfield that we have lost our title challenge, not away mate.

you said that if we cant beat little teams it shows we have problems, I suggested that little teams do sometimes win.

Do Arsenal have problems after losing at Boro ?

United lost at West Ham, City and Bolton, are they up sh.it creek ?

Chelsea lost at Villa so does this mean thay are in crisis ?

We only lost to Reading of the little teams, drawign games has been our problem, and not killing off teams or not having the craft to break through them.

I always thought that if you draw a game that meant you had failed to beat a side! Its not drawing or losing one game though is it Leon , its failing to beat lots of teams that has cost us, and strangely enough its usually been when Rafa has been fkn about with the formation, or not playing our best players because they don't suit that particular game , or resting players for no apparent reason.

All that cr@p about playing between the lines and Birmingham defending deep. WTF ? So then he plays the player against the same manager playing the same 11 men behind the ball defending deep tactics?

Its laughable mate

Rafa has made too many mistakes this season, thats not to say the players haven't done their fair share of letting the club down, and that we obviously are still short of quality and creativity.

I have no problems with rotation, but when he starts changing the formation as well its bound to add to the confusion.

A player gets told who he will be playing with 1 hour before a game, so he not only has to get his mind right for who he will be playing with and what their particular strengths and weaknesses are, he has to adapt to a different formation, that may or may not play to his own strengths and weaknesses.

If you told a great pianist, that you didn't want him playing the piano but to have a go on the banjo would you expect a world class performance? Or an orchestra to all change instruments and perform just as well.

The reason these small teams occasionally get results against top sides is because they are up for the game (motivation), with every player knowing his job (they dont have the luxury of a huge squad) their pitch is usually of a poor standard (levels the skill factor) and playing a formation they believe in.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GAMES AT ANFIELD not on some third division ground with more holes and lumps than turf.

Rafa really has only himself to blame in my honest opinion.

Your missing my point.

My point is that sometimes the lesser team will beat the better team, and it might not be down to wrong tactics, poor formation, players not performing, its just football.

I am not suggesting thats been our problem all season, far from it, but to assume we will win every game is dangerous.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:12 pm

On the odd occasion thats true, even the best sides have an off game or bad luck or poor decisions that cost them a game, but we have played 10 games at Anfield in the league and won only 4. Thats not the odd result that crops up every season, that says that there is a serious problem.

I don't honestly believe that Rafa has got the best out of our team this season , do you?

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:14 pm

s@int wrote:On the odd occasion thats true, even the best sides have an off game or bad luck or poor decisions that cost them a game, but we have played 10 games at Anfield in the league and won only 4. Thats not the odd result that crops up every season, that says that there is a serious problem.

I don't honestly believe that Rafa has got the best out of our team this year, do you?

No, however the contrast between the home and away form suggests it may not be as cut and dried as the manager didnt do this or the players didnt do that.

ITs a $64m question.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:21 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:On the odd occasion thats true, even the best sides have an off game or bad luck or poor decisions that cost them a game, but we have played 10 games at Anfield in the league and won only 4. Thats not the odd result that crops up every season, that says that there is a serious problem.

I don't honestly believe that Rafa has got the best out of our team this year, do you?

No, however the contrast between the home and away form suggests it may not be as cut and dried as the manager didnt do this or the players didnt do that.

ITs a $64m question.

But the fact that its when Rafa fks about with the formation that we tend to play badly would indicate what the answer is.

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:27 pm

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:On the odd occasion thats true, even the best sides have an off game or bad luck or poor decisions that cost them a game, but we have played 10 games at Anfield in the league and won only 4. Thats not the odd result that crops up every season, that says that there is a serious problem.

I don't honestly believe that Rafa has got the best out of our team this year, do you?

No, however the contrast between the home and away form suggests it may not be as cut and dried as the manager didnt do this or the players didnt do that.

ITs a $64m question.

But the fact that its when Rafa fks about with the formation that we tend to play badly would indicate what the answer is.

Playing badly and not getting results are two different things though mate.

Our problem has been that we have not got the results, not necessarily that we have played poorly.

We did not play badly against City, Wigan, Arsenal, Blackburn or Chelsea (League) but only have 5 points to show for it.

There is just something missing, I cant put me finger on it, it might be a couple of players it might be confidence, I dont know.

by **puroresu** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:31 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:On the odd occasion thats true, even the best sides have an off game or bad luck or poor decisions that cost them a game, but we have played 10 games at Anfield in the league and won only 4. Thats not the odd result that crops up every season, that says that there is a serious problem.

I don't honestly believe that Rafa has got the best out of our team this year, do you?

No, however the contrast between the home and away form suggests it may not be as cut and dried as the manager didnt do this or the players didnt do that.

ITs a $64m question.

But the fact that its when Rafa fks about with the formation that we tend to play badly would indicate what the answer is.

Playing badly and not getting results are two different things though mate.

Our problem has been that we have not got the results, not necessarily that we have played poorly.

We did not play badly against City, Wigan, Arsenal, Blackburn or Chelsea (League) but only have 5 points to show for it.

There is just something missing, I cant put me finger on it, it might be a couple of players it might be confidence, I dont know.

I thought we were ok v city but failed to win a game there for the taking. We were lucky to escape with a draw v arsenal. We were poor at blackburn. we deserved to beat chelsea.

The league table doesnt lie. We are 5th for a reason and thats simply cos we havent been good enough.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:34 pm

Of the games you picked, 2 were away (so don't really count

) and in the other 3 we scored the first goal. So its not just about breaking teams down either.

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:34 pm

I think you all make some good points.

I think you have to consider the long-term goals. We want a sustained period of success in the league, don't we? We want to be back where we were in the late 70s and 80s, dominating the English game. That's not going to come from an orgy of impulse buying and instant overhauls -- done right, it'll take some time, true.

However, during this time it should be expected that manager is able to get the team he has to perform to the best of its ability. Has Rafa done that? No, IMO. He makes excuses for the underwhelming football and constant slip-ups. He whinges sometimes about how he doesn't have the money the other clubs have, doesn't have the squad he wants. Well, tough. Get the team you have up to scratch, Rafa. It's understandable if we finish 4th because we couldn't beat the better teams; but when we're conceding points to Wigan, Reading, Brum, that's major underperformance. Just get the team working.

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