Liverpool FC Forum

by **burjennio** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:00 pm

its time to give the potential their games and a run in the side, its time to ship out the never ending stream of deadwood and its time to get behind Arsenal, cause there is no way i want the Mancs or the Russians winning another league

by **Ade** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:13 pm

I honestly thought we could challenge for the league this year, with the players we have. Winning it was always going to be a tough one, but we had a chance. To be effectively out of the race by the first week in Jan just isn't good enough.

To focus on just one comp from now until the end of the season isn't that simple. If Rafa finishes top 4 and goes to the semis of the FA and European Cups he can defend the season as 'Not bad at all.' If we put all our eggs in one basket and go all out to win the CL, but come unstuck, meanwhile falling out of the FA Cup early and coming fifth in the league, he's a goner. So I think we'll see more of the same, trying to cover all bases, rotating, and winning nothing.

What I'd like to see:

Babel and Lucas given serious game time, Gerrard out right with Masch and Alonso in the middle (Lucas to replace either of those), and Babel up top with Torres. Give Leto and Insua some time on the left, but look for a top class LM replacement.

Kuyt, Sissoko, Riise and Carson sold, if not in January then at the end of the season. Aim to get c£28m for these four.

Deco and possible David Villa signed, Masch signed. Should cost c£40m.

And finally, give Rafa the final ultimatum. Next season we win the league or come within a whisker, having made it our undisputed priority, and give rotation the boot. Otherwise, Rafa gets the boot.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:22 pm

There are some pretty big rumours coming from inside the club that the yanks are ready to go. Apparently DCI are negotiating to buy the club with the only stumbling block at the moment being Rick Parry, as the Arabs don't want him any where near the club. If this is true then I cannot see any movements in the transfer market as the Yanks are not going to spend if they are about to bail out!

I seriously do not know how true this is, but it does come from a source that is right about 80% of the time!

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:23 pm

So another game passes, another failure in the league comes to pass, another night of sleeplessness and what ifs and whys and while we are still in it with an outside shout its going to take a miracle to turn things around and/or an implosion by the teams around us to get us back on track, something which wont happen.

What im going to do now is talk about Rafa. Its no secret that at times i've been completely livid at him and that i dont see what all the adulation is about. Fine he is a top manager, thats granted, but the time of me praising and defending everything someone does at the club, player or manager passed a long time ago, i can no longer defend our club over our under achievement in the league. The way i see it people are there to do a job. When things go well they rightly get the plaudits, equally when they are falling short theres no room for sentiment, not at this club.

It says it all when i have more confidence and belief in us beating Inter Milan, than i do of us beating Wigan! So im going to try and pick out the faults we have with Rafa currently, something ive been argueing with many in here for ages.

Squad

Rafa believes having 24 players available for matches is more of a benefit than having a quality 14-15. I think this is where we start to fall down. In Rafas ideal he believes - or thinks he believes all players are equal within the squad. Theres no other way to explain his formations and tactics from game to game. He thinks swapping in Sissoko for Mascherano or Voronin for Torres will have no bearing on the team. Thats why we get debacles like Reading away, Birmingham at home to name two where the team has suffered as a direct result of him thinking we can simply swap in players and achieve the same result regardless. And while i think most of the teams are pish in this league, you simply cant just throw anyone in and expect a result because as we've found out to our cost, a team can take the points or a point from one chance. I believe he needs to narrow his pool of players down and remove quantity and replace it with quality, stop the rotation. Theres too many average players brought in to replace better players and it costs us.

Mentality

Theres no league winning mentality at Anfield and hasnt been for years. I dont know why this is the case but the finger of blame must be shared between manager and players but mostly at the manager. He has to get them prepared, motivated and believing that they can win football matches. he has to get them believing they would run through brick walls to achieve a result. In Europe he has this winning mentality off to a tee and maybe that comes from himself, he seems more confident of his own ability in Europe than in the league. As mentioned previously how can we lose 3-1 at Reading and then batter Marsielle away 4-0 within the space of a few days? Its quite unbelievable. When he picks his sides in Europe, with the exception of Marseille at home his teams are always strong and well prepared compared to the league. Its like he can only focus on one thing per season (usually the CL) but ill move on to that one in a bit.

Incentive

Theres no incentive for any player to do well. At all.

There's no guts shown, or fire. Players are lacklustre and lethargic and play within themselves and i believe its a big factor of his rotation system. Why should Benayoun bust a gut and run himself into the turf if he knows he might be on the bench next game regardless? Crouch is a great example of what im talking about. The poor lad has been through the mill at this club. he came in and struggled against all odds before finally finding some form and goals. Last year he was our leading scorer but found himself dropped after matches inwhich he'd scored in! This season he was frustrated early doors, couldnt get a game, when he did he was out the next game. Then he finally found some form around the Beşiktaş match and low and behold found himself benched again. Kuyt was a regular at the beginning of the season and while not scoring many he was playing well. he now seems to have lost all his infectious enthusiasm, he's been in and out of the side, played out of position (as has Crouch and Voronin) is it any wonder we only have one striker with the ability to net? In the good old days youd lose form, go into the ressies for a bit, fight for your place and return a renwed player with fire and vigour for the shirt, we no longer have that - just a team thats switched around like a puzzle. You cant expect players to come in and out one week to the next and expect them to hit form, it doesnt happen.

Focus

Rafa is brilliant in Europe. He knows what he wants, everything is clear to him. The belief he has transpires to the players and the crowd. As i said earlier i have more faith in us beating Milan than Wigan. In the league his focus is loose. He says he concentrates only on the game at hand, but his lineups and tactics tell another story, especially around Champions League matches. Its an infuriating trait because as a top manager, probably one of the best in the world he should be capable of getting our players to perform against lowly sides and to outwit clowns like Bruce and Coppell. He's not comfortable with this league and i think it shows.

Consistency and Cohesion

The team has no cohesion. No one knows whats happening week to week. The fact that the team don't hear the lineup until an hour before kick off is another reason we probably don't see the best from our team. How can you be prepared mentally if you dont know whether you are starting? How can you be prepared if you dont know who you are playing with? I know people will mention training, but a match scenario is different, theres pressure and things at stake.

Theres a distinct lack of movement and vision in the team, but can you blame them? Players strike up an understanding of each other tahts how you get a rhythm and vibrancy to your team. For instance Finnan last night setting up Torres, he must have known Torres would be there as he cooly slotted the ball across the box. That kind of movement, vision and passing comes from understanding and playing with the same personnel which is why we only see it in flashes. We lack that in bucketloads. Our wide areas are always switching week to week. Aurellio with Kewell, Kewell with Benayoun, Benayoun with Riise, Risse with babel, it goes on and on - its no wonder we are disjointed! Our attack changes weekly. Theres no partnerships, theres no working together, no cohesion.

Subs and changes

Always too late. Last night Kewell should have been hauled off. I like him but he was detrimental to the team last night. But Rafa didnt make the change earlier enough and gave no time for Yossi to do anything. Then he takes off a winger and throws on Kuyt into Pennants position? Why? Thats not the move of a genius world class manager, thats desperation. Then Crouch comes on and its a mess. No one knows where each other is playing, its headless chicken time. I can count on two hands over four years the amount of workable substitutions, most of the time his substitutions are completely baffling, replacing players and playing them out of position or replacing players who are causing the opposition problems instead of ones that arnt pulling their weight.

Ripped from rawk

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:30 pm

Whoever wrote that is spot on... We all know it, its just hard to admit sometimes

by **Emerald Red** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:34 pm

Ade wrote:And finally, give Rafa the final ultimatum. Next season we win the league or come within a whisker, having made it our undisputed priority, and give rotation the boot. Otherwise, Rafa gets the boot.

That ultimatum is not wholly unreachable this season, now is it? We can still come close to winning it this season, even if we don't. 6-7 points behind the winners at best will be very close considering the points we could and should have had. At the start of the season, I'd always held my opinion that if we can get close, then it's satisfactory. I never really believed we could really win it until early on in the season when I let the hype take me so foolishly. I called it after the Reading game that we couldn't win the league, and was one of the first to do so on here. My mind didn't change, and I was proven right. The alarm bells were ringing in any case when we were drawing so many games.

Take that into account, and the fact that we are still in two big cup competitions, and then you realize there is still a lot of this season left to play for. IMO, even though the league is gone from us, the CL now must be the priority. Rafa must go all out to win that now. In most true, long supporting Liverpool supporters eyes, it will be a petty substitute, but it's a petty substitute that most other clubs covet the most. It will also send a clear message to the owners that they have a man in charge that is of the highest stature in European football, someone who would be capable of winning two European Cups, a UEFA Cup, FA Cup and two la Liga titles would surely know how to find his way to an EPL if given the time and resources. It would mean it would be madness to sack someone with that kind of CV.

by **puroresu** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
Ade wrote:And finally, give Rafa the final ultimatum. Next season we win the league or come within a whisker, having made it our undisputed priority, and give rotation the boot. Otherwise, Rafa gets the boot.

That ultimatum is not wholly unreachable this season, now is it? We can still come close to winning it this season, even if we don't. 6-7 points behind the winners at best will be very close considering the points we could and should have had.

Take that into account, and the fact that we are still in two big cup competitions, and then you realize there is still a lot of this season left to play for. IMO, even though the league is gone from us, the CL now must be the priority. Rafa must go all out to win that now. In most true, long supporting Liverpool supporters eyes, it will be a petty substitute, but it's a petty substitute that most other clubs covet the most. It will also send a clear message to the owners that they have a man in charge that is of the highest stature in European football, someone who would be capable of winning two European Cups, a UEFA Cup, FA Cup and two la Liga titles would surely know how to find his way to an EPL if given the time and resources. It would mean it would be madness to sack someone with that kind of CV.

I think we need to go on some run to finish the season within 7 points of the champions. We still gotta go to Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd and if we progress in Europe I feel the manager will start resting players in league games which could effect performances in the league games even more.

At the moment the most important thing for the club is getting 4th place. We are in a fight for 4th and no CL football would be a disaster.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 pm

s@int wrote:So another game passes, another failure in the league comes to pass, another night of sleeplessness and what ifs and whys and while we are still in it with an outside shout its going to take a miracle to turn things around and/or an implosion by the teams around us to get us back on track, something which wont happen.

What im going to do now is talk about Rafa. Its no secret that at times i've been completely livid at him and that i dont see what all the adulation is about. Fine he is a top manager, thats granted, but the time of me praising and defending everything someone does at the club, player or manager passed a long time ago, i can no longer defend our club over our under achievement in the league. The way i see it people are there to do a job. When things go well they rightly get the plaudits, equally when they are falling short theres no room for sentiment, not at this club.

It says it all when i have more confidence and belief in us beating Inter Milan, than i do of us beating Wigan! So im going to try and pick out the faults we have with Rafa currently, something ive been argueing with many in here for ages.

Squad

Rafa believes having 24 players available for matches is more of a benefit than having a quality 14-15. I think this is where we start to fall down. In Rafas ideal he believes - or thinks he believes all players are equal within the squad. Theres no other way to explain his formations and tactics from game to game. He thinks swapping in Sissoko for Mascherano or Voronin for Torres will have no bearing on the team. Thats why we get debacles like Reading away, Birmingham at home to name two where the team has suffered as a direct result of him thinking we can simply swap in players and achieve the same result regardless. And while i think most of the teams are pish in this league, you simply cant just throw anyone in and expect a result because as we've found out to our cost, a team can take the points or a point from one chance. I believe he needs to narrow his pool of players down and remove quantity and replace it with quality, stop the rotation. Theres too many average players brought in to replace better players and it costs us.

Mentality

Theres no league winning mentality at Anfield and hasnt been for years. I dont know why this is the case but the finger of blame must be shared between manager and players but mostly at the manager. He has to get them prepared, motivated and believing that they can win football matches. he has to get them believing they would run through brick walls to achieve a result. In Europe he has this winning mentality off to a tee and maybe that comes from himself, he seems more confident of his own ability in Europe than in the league. As mentioned previously how can we lose 3-1 at Reading and then batter Marsielle away 4-0 within the space of a few days? Its quite unbelievable. When he picks his sides in Europe, with the exception of Marseille at home his teams are always strong and well prepared compared to the league. Its like he can only focus on one thing per season (usually the CL) but ill move on to that one in a bit.

Incentive

Theres no incentive for any player to do well. At all.

There's no guts shown, or fire. Players are lacklustre and lethargic and play within themselves and i believe its a big factor of his rotation system. Why should Benayoun bust a gut and run himself into the turf if he knows he might be on the bench next game regardless? Crouch is a great example of what im talking about. The poor lad has been through the mill at this club. he came in and struggled against all odds before finally finding some form and goals. Last year he was our leading scorer but found himself dropped after matches inwhich he'd scored in! This season he was frustrated early doors, couldnt get a game, when he did he was out the next game. Then he finally found some form around the Beşiktaş match and low and behold found himself benched again. Kuyt was a regular at the beginning of the season and while not scoring many he was playing well. he now seems to have lost all his infectious enthusiasm, he's been in and out of the side, played out of position (as has Crouch and Voronin) is it any wonder we only have one striker with the ability to net? In the good old days youd lose form, go into the ressies for a bit, fight for your place and return a renwed player with fire and vigour for the shirt, we no longer have that - just a team thats switched around like a puzzle. You cant expect players to come in and out one week to the next and expect them to hit form, it doesnt happen.

Focus

Rafa is brilliant in Europe. He knows what he wants, everything is clear to him. The belief he has transpires to the players and the crowd. As i said earlier i have more faith in us beating Milan than Wigan. In the league his focus is loose. He says he concentrates only on the game at hand, but his lineups and tactics tell another story, especially around Champions League matches. Its an infuriating trait because as a top manager, probably one of the best in the world he should be capable of getting our players to perform against lowly sides and to outwit clowns like Bruce and Coppell. He's not comfortable with this league and i think it shows.

Consistency and Cohesion

The team has no cohesion. No one knows whats happening week to week. The fact that the team don't hear the lineup until an hour before kick off is another reason we probably don't see the best from our team. How can you be prepared mentally if you dont know whether you are starting? How can you be prepared if you dont know who you are playing with? I know people will mention training, but a match scenario is different, theres pressure and things at stake.

Theres a distinct lack of movement and vision in the team, but can you blame them? Players strike up an understanding of each other tahts how you get a rhythm and vibrancy to your team. For instance Finnan last night setting up Torres, he must have known Torres would be there as he cooly slotted the ball across the box. That kind of movement, vision and passing comes from understanding and playing with the same personnel which is why we only see it in flashes. We lack that in bucketloads. Our wide areas are always switching week to week. Aurellio with Kewell, Kewell with Benayoun, Benayoun with Riise, Risse with babel, it goes on and on - its no wonder we are disjointed! Our attack changes weekly. Theres no partnerships, theres no working together, no cohesion.

Subs and changes

Always too late. Last night Kewell should have been hauled off. I like him but he was detrimental to the team last night. But Rafa didnt make the change earlier enough and gave no time for Yossi to do anything. Then he takes off a winger and throws on Kuyt into Pennants position? Why? Thats not the move of a genius world class manager, thats desperation. Then Crouch comes on and its a mess. No one knows where each other is playing, its headless chicken time. I can count on two hands over four years the amount of workable substitutions, most of the time his substitutions are completely baffling, replacing players and playing them out of position or replacing players who are causing the opposition problems instead of ones that arnt pulling their weight.

Ripped from rawk

Thats a well written and compelling post.

Not being a smart @rse here but BB and Sabre would do well to take what he's said on board. And in that I dont mean argue against, but simply take it on board.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:00 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Thats a well written and compelling post.

Not being a smart @rse here but BB and Sabre would do well to take what he's said on board. And in that I dont mean argue against, but simply take it on board.

Fair enough. FWIW, that post does make so good points and also, FWIW, I don't think Rafa is infallible or some untouchable tactical genius. I see that he gets things wrong: some are one-offs, others are more frequent for my liking.

When I defend the man, though, I do so to offer a sense of balance. If you read the match thread from last night, for instance, you'd think we were a pub team that got played off the park. Fact is, we dominated the game and created the chances needed to win easily. Once again we didn't finish them and got done by a sucker punch goal but that doesn't mean that we were p!sh. Man U aren't rubbish just because they switched off against West Ham and Arsenal aren't either just because they managed to lose to Boro, so I really wish people could keep results in perspective.

That said, this thread is about the big picture and, when we look at the big picture it's true that we haven't been good enough this season to truly challenge for the title. Too many draws have been our downfall (we've lost fewer games than the Mancs, I believe Owzat pointed out so it really is the draws) and that's mostly down to poor finishing and the occasional defensive error. On the upside, we have battered a few teams this season and have gone on streaks where we could seemingly score for fun. What that tells me is that we aren't nearly as bad as some people suggest and that we just need to stay the course and add that extra bit of quality to the team.

Personally, I think we can challenge for the title under Rafa...flaws and all. Personally, I'm prepared to be more patient with him than I am to wait while a new manager gets in, gets set up, gets his players in and gets going. If others are less certain that Rafa can deliver and more confident that a different manager can bring greater success sooner rather than later, more power to them. Those people may well get their wish if rumours are to be believed. And, if Rafa is replaced and we do kick on and truly challenge for the title with more or less the current squad I'll gladly eat that humble pie that Mick's got in the freezer. Personally, though, I think we can still get there with Rafa and I think replacing him would be a big step backwards.

by **Ade** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:06 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
Ade wrote:And finally, give Rafa the final ultimatum. Next season we win the league or come within a whisker, having made it our undisputed priority, and give rotation the boot. Otherwise, Rafa gets the boot.

That ultimatum is not wholly unreachable this season, now is it? We can still come close to winning it this season, even if we don't. 6-7 points behind the winners at best will be very close considering the points we could and should have had. At the start of the season, I'd always held my opinion that if we can get close, then it's satisfactory. I never really believed we could really win it until early on in the season when I let the hype take me so foolishly. I called it after the Reading game that we couldn't win the league, and was one of the first to do so on here. My mind didn't change, and I was proven right. The alarm bells were ringing in any case when we were drawing so many games.

Take that into account, and the fact that we are still in two big cup competitions, and then you realize there is still a lot of this season left to play for. IMO, even though the league is gone from us, the CL now must be the priority. Rafa must go all out to win that now. In most true, long supporting Liverpool supporters eyes, it will be a petty substitute, but it's a petty substitute that most other clubs covet the most. It will also send a clear message to the owners that they have a man in charge that is of the highest stature in European football, someone who would be capable of winning two European Cups, a UEFA Cup, FA Cup and two la Liga titles would surely know how to find his way to an EPL if given the time and resources. It would mean it would be madness to sack someone with that kind of CV.

It's not wholly unreachable, but realistically the league has gone. Again.

The CL has to be the priority, I agree, but for most reds it was the league at the start of the season, and either Rafa didn't see it that way, or he's failed to deliver. Either way, I'm not alone this week in finally defecting to the 'Rafa will not win us the league' camp.

In that long post Saint nabbed from RAWK, I'd just add one thing. The biggest single thing missing at Anfield at the moment is a winning mentality. Arsenal, Chelsea and the Mancs go out with tactics and a gameplan, but if that goes out of the window they draw on their mental strength and will to win, they play off the cuff and fight till the end. That's how they scrape 1-0 wins and nick games they don't deserve to win.

We can't do this, maybe once or twice a season, but not regularly. Rafa sends the team out with a tactical masterplan, but if the other side don't play ball we're lost: there's little fight, little cohesion, little self-belief. It's the difference between winning in Europe, where most games are tactical, not fistfights, and winning in England - where it's the opposite.

The real shame for me is that rafa has bought some fine players, built the best squad we've had in years. But the problem seems to be with him. Say what you like, but Mourinho wouldn't come up as short in the league with this squad as Rafa has.

by **shakey** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:07 pm

eds wrote:Today's result has all but cemented what I have kept stating this season and last season, and that is that Benitez is not good enough and has NEVER shown signs of winning us the league and deep down inside I think he never will.

It's funny that this result has finally started sending most of the "in Rafa we trust" brigade to their final graves. RIP my deluded friends. I am not gloating (how could I after this morning's misery) but this latest result has vindicated everything I have said and pretty much proven the Leon's of this world to be very, very wrong.

Despite the "Rafa" brigade harping on about being undefeated for a large part of this season, losing only twice at home in around 40 league games, winning the CL back in 2005, Rafa winning the title twice in Spain and any irrelevant incoherent justification to his so called "greatness" the cold hard fact remains the same - we are NO closer then we were when he started at this club 4 years ago.

So Mick's question is what do we do from here? Sack him immediately? Where will that get us? We need Rafa to go down with his ship, that is season 2007-2008. Rest our best players in the league and concentrate on the CL? And risk missing out on the CL next season.......ahh no thanks. If people haven't noticed Man City are a much better team this year and we will be pushed even to finish 4th this season. Play the kids? Maybe, but besides Babel and Lucas, I am not confident in any of our other player's abilities to play in our first XI. Which is kid of funny, because Benitez has poured a lot of investment into our youth system yet we still haven't seen any signs of return yet?

What we need now is to dig in, support the players, the manager and our beloved club. We can't put our heads down in defeat and start bickering amongst ourselves, that is not what this great club stands for. We need to keep fighting, for what ever league position we finish this season, for whatever results we get from the CL and for what ever results we get from the FA Cup.

At then end of the season we need to ask some pretty tough questions. Do we keep Benitez? If not, which manager do we hire to yet again start "rebuilding"? Which players do we sell? Which players are destined to leave if Benitez does? How much money do we actually have to rebuild a proper side? Depressing things to think about but we need to keep fighting. This is LIVERPOOL FC and you will never walk alone!

Couldnt have put it better myself :nod

by **Emerald Red** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:08 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Thats a well written and compelling post.

Not being a smart @rse here but BB and Sabre would do well to take what he's said on board. And in that I dont mean argue against, but simply take it on board.

Fair enough. FWIW, that post does make so good points and also, FWIW, I don't think Rafa is infallible or some untouchable tactical genius. I see that he gets things wrong: some are one-offs, others are more frequent for my liking.

When I defend the man, though, I do so to offer a sense of balance. If you read the match thread from last night, for instance, you'd think we were a pub team that got played off the park. Fact is, we dominated the game and created the chances needed to win easily. Once again we didn't finish them and got done by a sucker punch goal but that doesn't mean that we were p!sh. Man U aren't rubbish just because they switched off against West Ham and Arsenal aren't either just because they managed to lose to Boro, so I really wish people could keep results in perspective.

That said, this thread is about the big picture and, when we look at the big picture it's true that we haven't been good enough this season to truly challenge for the title. Too many draws have been our downfall (we've lost fewer games than the Mancs, I believe Owzat pointed out so it really is the draws) and that's mostly down to poor finishing and the occasional defensive error. On the upside, we have battered a few teams this season and have gone on streaks where we could seemingly score for fun. What that tells me is that we aren't nearly as bad as some people suggest and that we just need to stay the course and add that extra bit of quality to the team.

Personally, I think we can challenge for the title under Rafa...flaws and all. Personally, I'm prepared to be more patient with him than I am to wait while a new manager gets in, gets set up, gets his players in and gets going. If others are less certain that Rafa can deliver and more confident that a different manager can bring greater success sooner rather than later, more power to them. Those people may well get their wish if rumours are to be believed. And, if Rafa is replaced and we do kick on and truly challenge for the title with more or less the current squad I'll gladly eat that humble pie that Mick's got in the freezer. Personally, though, I think we can still get there with Rafa and I think replacing him would be a big step backwards.

Sanity at last. A reflection of my very own views (had i been ar$ed to put it in as many well written words). One of the best posts I've read in the past 24 hours. You should dissect some of the relative points and paste it into the Derby thread. I wonder if you'll be beaten about the head with as many spanners I have have there for having the same kind of view.

by **Owzat** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:11 pm

peewee wrote:he bought the players so he is at fault if they are not good enough

Exactly! If he buys inadequate players that is the sign of a poor manager, if he continues to play them it is the sign of a poor manager and if his tactics/formation are poor as well then you have to wonder where we're drifting to.

Losses are always disappointing, but how far can we have progressed if come JANUARY we're looking forward only to the FA Cup and a Champions League campaign? We could easily lose to Inter, after all the pattern would then be winners, L16, runners-up, L16. If we draw one of the top three away in the FA Cup then that will be an uphill struggle.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:12 pm

bigmick wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Well, I'm fairly certain this "delayed gazelle" thing wasn't anything I'd advocated but that wasn't my point anyway. My point was this notion that resting Torres against Portsmouth and Birmingham "derailed" us was a theory premised on the notion that, had he played in those games, we would have won instead of drawn.

No, you're right it belongs in another thread so I'll make this my last word on the subject on here. The theory about the derailment being caused by resting Torres, based on the premise that we would have won the game had he played is incorrect. Clearly he doesn't score in, and we don't win every game in which he and/or Gerrard or anybody else plays in.

I would venture though that we would have had more chance of winning those two games had he and Gerrard played in the first, and Torres the second.

Surely everybody would accept that we have more chance of winning any game if Torres starts in front of say, Voronin? Doesn't mean we will win it, but it does mean we have more chance of winning it surely. Now obviously Torres can't start in every game, but resting him after only a couple of matches on the grounds that he would be fresher months later was silly.

There's no question in my mind that we made grave errors at the start of the season with our "Rafa style". Despite the manager belatedly realising this and getting sensible, alas it has been too late. Whether or not we're good enough anyway is a moot point, but we're definately not good enough to leave our best players on the bench in the first couple of months of the season and still maintain a challenge, that's for sure.

I'll just respond to this point, mate, and then we can pick it up if needs be in the rotation thread. I agree that starting Torres always gives us a better chance of winning. What I object to is the notion that not starting Torres "derailed" us. When you use a strong term like derailed, you are implying (IMHO) that not starting Torres cost us two wins. I'll I'm trying to say is that it is not that simple. I'm sure this feels like nit-picking but it really does come down to the terminology used for me. As far as I'm concerned, too many draws have "derailed" us and that there are many factors that have contributed to those disappointing results. Not starting Torres in those games is probably one of those factors but it was not the only one and may not even have been the defining one.

by **Judge** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:13 pm

8 from 12

not good enough

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