Liverpool FC Forum

by **JoeTerp** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:05 pm

Agree with a lot of your points. I think Momo and Riise MIGHT have punched their ticket with their performance. I think this is more of down to a POOR TEAM SELECTION by Rafa and not down to purely the Rotation system itself. I think people were calling for Hobbs, but that was when we thought Cara was still suffering from broken ribs, I do not think that Finnan was at full fitness and same with Aurelio, so unless you want to play Insua or Darby with Hobbs, that means Riise at LB and Arbeloa at RB. I had a weird feeling that Yossi was going to be rested and that Voronin and Momo were going to play (don't ask me why) I think leaving both Kewell and Babel out was a problem. For a while we had been 6 back of Arsenal they gave us 2 points and now we just gave them 3, not THAT big of a deal, but we need to take advantage when we are given points and cut into the lead and sustain it. I am a little worried now, but if we can win the next two, the story changes again.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:26 am

bigmick wrote:Right, all that said I thought the line-up today was overly experimental and was asking for trouble.

In all honesty, I couldn't agree more. I didn't like the teamsheet when it came out and I certainly didn't like how things played out on the pitch. It was like Newcastle all over again except:

1) Kewell is much better than Voronin out wide
2) Hyypia is a steadier hand than young Hobbs
3) Lucas is more offensive-minded than Mascherano
4) Reading didn't roll over like the Geordies did

I'm all for being prudent given the matches were about to face but I thought today's lineup was just asking for trouble. Well, let's just hope this blip is only a one-gamer.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:43 am

bigmick wrote:Well it'll no doubt be the main topic of discussion over the next couple of days, and as the match thread is quite busy, I thought I'd put this in here.

Firstly, todays result was not solely down to rotation. Secondly, the players he had out on the park should have been good enough to beat Reading. Thirdly, we have played with similar formations/total lack of apparent width before and won easily at harder places to go to than Reading. Fourthly, you can't play the same team in every single game and we've got two other huge games coming up. Fifthly, we have been rotating every week for the last month or so and have been winning every week, easily. Sixthly, Torres, Gerrard and carragher all played, exactly what the anti's have been on about. Seventhly, we got unlucky with refereeing decisions.

Right, all that said I thought the line-up today was overly experimental and was asking for trouble. I've thought that (and have said so) about a couple of line-ups recently, but we've defied any misgivings I've had (OK then proved me wrong if you prefer ) by winning very convincingly. Today we took a gamble and it didn't work.

The one thing todays result does do is to put our start into more sharper context. I've been saying for a while now that despite the "but we're unbeaten" claims, we're probably at least three and perhaps as many as six points adrift of where we need to be given the kindness of our fixtures so far. I think today has proven that one dodgy result, one bad performance, one dodgy selection, one blind ref and we're fecking pretty nearly gone for all money.

We aren't though, and two good results will make it all seem OK again. I don't think the selection today was another Fratton Park and certainly not another Bramhall Lane, but it was very unwise. Once again we've proven the point that you can take a bunch of players (it would be doing Rafa a disservice to call them a team as he has successfully used lots of different combinations over the last few weeks) who are absolutely flying, but if you play a few of them out of position and mix it around too much you can make them seem quite ordinary again. We've also recently proven that momentum is hard to get back, but once you've got it you can roll teams over at will. We need to get it back and fecking sharpish, and the broken record bit is that once you've got it you've got to do everything in your power to keep it.

Bet you think the team I picked wasn't so bad now Mick

I don't mind him changing the team but he changed the formation so that we had no balance, the tactics, and played too many players who have been struggling for form all season. Riise and Sissoko have hardly been inspiring when played lately, Voronin never looks comfortable in a 3 up formation. Then he plays Crouch and Torres with no wingers and no width?

This is not about rotation, this is about poor team selection. I agree with Bob, we got away with it at Newcastle, we wern't as fortunate today.

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:46 am

Since we've had to endure some pretty self satisfied and way premature back slapping posts from the pro-rotationers over the last couple of weeks, it's beyond my self control not to mention that it's all gone pretty quiet on that particular front since the final whistle today.

I've been saying for a couple of weeks now that we are about to enter a pivotal period in our challenge for the title should it indeed exist in reality and further, in the reign of the manager. It seems that the only sense in which I called it wrong was in that it started a little earlier than expected.

I've just been wondering with todays selection, what was the point of it all? From Rafa's point of view, what was his thinking, how much risk was involved and what was he trying to achieve? Firstly, we didn't play Kewell or Hyppia. Now I think most everyone would agree that Rafa rates the Australian very highly, and pretty much most people would agree with him that when he's fit he is an important member of the team, not just the squad. Hyppia since Agger is injured has a regular. So why not play them? Well out of all the decisions, these are the most understandable and easily explained. Hyppia probably needed a rest (and that's something coming from me), while Kewell is only just coming back from injury. We need Harry in the next couple of games, and given his history you can hardly blame the manager for wrapping him in cotton wool.

So we replace Hyppia with Hobbs, which given it's our only option is fair enough. In place of Kewell however, we decide to kind of play Voronin in a kind of wide leftish front role. In central midfield we decide against resting Gerrard (correctly) and decide to keep his partnership with Masherano intact. Curiously, we also play Sissoko in there. Wide right, we kind of don't bother, but ask Gerrard to kind of fill in, while Torres runs the channels and Crouch looks to go in there too. All in all it kind of doesn't look right to me.

Now believe me, the fact this post is after the event is down to time difference, not to me waiiting for the result before sounding off (I'd like to think I've proven that over the years).

So what did we gain from the team selection? Well Kewell got a rest, as did Hyppia which may come in handy over the next few matches. Carragher, Torres and Gerrard all played (although none completed the game) so minimal net gain there. Hobbs got some experience of the Premiership (although I must confess I like to see players such as him play at Home for the start of their careers), while Aurelio, Finnan, Benayoun, Babel, Lucas and Kuyt etc etc will all be fresh as daisies now.

One last question. Why, if this was the group of players that were jumping around like gazelles in training, didn't we just play Benayoun or Babel wide left, Gerrard on the right and leave Voronin out? We could have played a bog standard 4-4-2, we would probably have won the game ("how do you know that?" I don't, it's just a guess) and the only difference would have been Voronin, rather than Benayoun/Babel would have got a rest.

There's rotation, there's resting, and there's taking the p!ss out of teams. If you continually do the latter, then sooner or later one of those "little" clubs will turn round and bite you on the erse. It's like a little timebomb waiting to explode in your face.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:58 am

bigmick wrote:One last question. Why, if this was the group of players that were jumping around like gazelles in training, didn't we just play Benayoun or Babel wide left, Gerrard on the right and leave Voronin out? We could have played a bog standard 4-4-2, we would probably have won the game ("how do you know that?" I don't, it's just a guess) and the only difference would have been Voronin, rather than Benayoun/Babel would have got a rest.

That's the million dollar question for me. I can't imagine that we would have any difficulty getting 3 games in succession out of a combination of Babel, Benayoun and Kewell in the wide positions (with Gerrard to fill in on the right should needs arise) so why rest them all today? Bizarre.

One thing's perfectly clear, though, as I've been saying for weeks now, the leopard Rafa has most certainly not changed his spots.

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:02 am

s@int wrote:This is not about rotation, this is about poor team selection. I agree with Bob, we got away with it at Newcastle, we wern't as fortunate today.

Mate, they aren't mutually exclusive don't you think?

He rotated Hyypia out of the back five and replaced him with Hobbs.
(I have no problem with that actually as it's an opportunity to let the boy prove himself from the start and the Reading game seemed like the ideal opportunity)

He rotated 50% of the remaining players AND changed the formation. In order to change the formation, he had to rotate and rotate hard. A 4-3-3 with Mash, Gerrard and Lucas in the middle and Torres, Crouch and Kewell up front would have been much better advised yesterday. Fewer rotations and better balance as we could have reverted to a 4-4-2 if required.

All in all, a bad day at the office.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:41 am

If nothing else Rafa has proved I was wrong. I thought if we kept the spine of the team he could more or less pick any other 6 players from the squad and get a result against most of the "lesser teams". Yesterday we had the spine there, we just didn't have the balance,formation or the tactics right.

Usually with hindsight I can see why Rafa makes most of his decisions, even when I don't necessarily agree with them. I can't understand what he was trying to achieve with the tactics or formation he played. No wide players ? No creativity ? I know we have all got a little carried away by the way Torres has been playing, but ffs you have to give him a chance to shine. Although the way he took the high ball down and slipped the pass to Gerrard was nothing shy of brilliant.

Rafa got it wrong, not by changing the team, I honestly believe he had no real option but to rest players. He got it wrong by the team he picked, and by the tactics and formation he played.

Having said all that I believe we would and should have won but for the ref having a poorer game than Riise.

No more mistakes Rafa please, especially this week!

by **maguskwt** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:24 am

agreed to most of the things you guys have said... like bob has said if he wanted to play 4-3-3... play kewell, benyaoun or babel as the wide forwards... and torres as the centreforward... later on if he wants to rest torres, bring on crouch as the centre forward... in the middle play lucas and masherano as withdrawn MF and play gerrard as a more advanced midfielder... that's it rafa.. it's as simple as that...

we already knew that sissoko was a passenger in the newcastle game... in this game we had more passengers in crouch and voronin...

(oh btw... i can edit without the "edited by" also)

i don't know rafa... maybe you're too far-looking than most of us would like...

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 pm

Since we've had to endure some pretty self satisfied and way premature back slapping posts from the pro-rotationers over the last couple of weeks, it's beyond my self control not to mention that it's all gone pretty quiet on that particular front since the final whistle today.

Funny that.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:04 pm

Just for Mick and Bamaga - Rafa is a God, rotation is the way, and all those who think otherwise can f*ck off and endure a syphilis-related death.

Happy?

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:30 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Since we've had to endure some pretty self satisfied and way premature back slapping posts from the pro-rotationers over the last couple of weeks, it's beyond my self control not to mention that it's all gone pretty quiet on that particular front since the final whistle today.

Funny that.

Of course if 1 month ago Bigmick was asking whether we were still in the rotation ship "Are you still there?" he asked

, in quite a rethorical (and tongue in cheek) way, then it's only normal he receives the kind of "I see sailors jumping in the antirotation ship" (tongue in cheek aswell) retort when things go better.

At least we prorotationers do not make new threads talking about how master tactician is Rafa after a victory, like you have made a rant about Rafa may be our master of downfall as soon as we lost a game.

You see, if you praise the manager that brought has 2 CL finals you're a happy clapper, but if you write a thread of him being responsible of our downfall after a defeat then it's of course a sensible opinion and a good post.

Yeah, right.

For the record, I haven't moved from my rotation ship one iota

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:31 pm

And Lando, make your signature more narrow, it's fúcking up the screen!

by **LFC2007** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:34 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Since we've had to endure some pretty self satisfied and way premature back slapping posts from the pro-rotationers over the last couple of weeks, it's beyond my self control not to mention that it's all gone pretty quiet on that particular front since the final whistle today.

Funny that.

Two points:

1) There was the small matter of Hatton v Mayweather.

2) Generally speaking - immediately after a defeat, supporters feel very disappointed and depressed, and hence don't feel like revelling in such a result on an internet forum.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:09 pm

Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Since we've had to endure some pretty self satisfied and way premature back slapping posts from the pro-rotationers over the last couple of weeks, it's beyond my self control not to mention that it's all gone pretty quiet on that particular front since the final whistle today.

Funny that.

Of course if 1 month ago Bigmick was asking whether we were still in the rotation ship "Are you still there?" he asked , in quite a rethorical (and tongue in cheek) way, then it's only normal he receives the kind of "I see sailors jumping in the antirotation ship" (tongue in cheek aswell) retort when things go better.

At least we prorotationers do not make new threads talking about how master tactician is Rafa after a victory, like you have made a rant about Rafa may be our master of downfall as soon as we lost a game.

You see, if you praise the manager that brought has 2 CL finals you're a happy clapper, but if you write a thread of him being responsible of our downfall after a defeat then it's of course a sensible opinion and a good post.

Yeah, right.

For the record, I haven't moved from my rotation ship one iota

It was a reaction Sabre and LFC

I'd just watched the game, and posted my thoughts straight after, same if we win, lose or draw.

I am pretty livid in the fact I personally dont think Rafa gave Reading ANY respect. And I thought he would of learnt that by now after three years in charge. Teams dont roll over and die for you in the Prem, just because your a big club ............ Remember Burnley FA cup ??

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:13 pm

Fair enough Bamaga, I was depressed aswell as the game ended, and I didn't feel much better after watching a Spanish segunda game with 4 grade celsius and a boredom in football that you can't possibly comprehend (really Boring. As in Boring). We all have reactions.

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