Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:16 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:For us on the happy clappy pro- rotational ferry it's starting to come together, however as regards our friends on the good ship fickle(joke) they will have plenty of cause to argue there case. It won't always be as easy as it seems to have been over the last couple of games(starting with the mancs).

Very true Igor, and some of us are enjoying the "rotation works" and self congratulation safe in the knowledge that there is a long way to go

My feeling still is that we are good enough as a team and a squad to launch a significant title challenge, but that we are probably four or five points off where we need and ought to be right now. The team selection at Porsmouth and the desperate fiddling around in the aftermath as we tried to re-balance the whole thing caused us to lose all momentum. During that period our situation could have been a whole lot worse than it is now, as opponents took it in turns to rattle our goalframe and miss open goals against us, while referees decided not to award stone-wall penalties int eh dying seconds of derbies.

Nothing to do with rotation? Well I for one am not so sure. While I don't argue with the prognosis that we miss Torres terribly if he doesn't play, nor that he can't play in every single game, could it possibly be that if he played with a regular partner, one who also scores goals (Peter Crouch perhaps), then possibly when he wasn't selected that the loss wouldn't be so great?

Time will tell. We are proving right now that when all is well we can alter the team and not suffer unduly, even prosper on occasions. We are being promised that Arsenal will drop points (I love that, they're on course to get about 110 points if they carry on winning every single game like they are now. OF COURSE THEY'LL FECKING DROP POINTS

) I'll be watching out for the first pro to break ranks with the "see I told you they'd drop points what with never giving players a rest"

Anyway, when they do drop points, we'll see if we're close enough to capitalise. When our extra "freshness" kicks in, we'll see if we're close enough to capitalise.

All round, we'll see. My prediction though is still that we'll do well to get within a single figures points deficit by the end of the season given our very difficult second half. But we'll see. I for one will very happily devour my humble pie if I'm wrong.

Just as an edit, and a quoteable prediction as I know people like to make out that I'm inconsistent. A proper title challenge for me is within a couple of wins of the eventual Champions, and my current prediction is that I think we will be about twelve points off the pace at the end.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:23 pm

I think you are getting the wrong idea about rotation Mick, the idea is not just that the team is fresher and fitter at the end of the season but that the squad maintains that sharpness THROUGHOUT the season. This is were I had my arguments about rotation "Rafa style", you don't need to rotate 6, 7, 8, players in a match (unless its a cup you don't really care about). 3 or 4 changes at most with NO MORE than one of your key players included in that number is sensible rotation. Always making sure that you have as many of your matchwinners in the side as possible. As we only really have two, thats a slightly sticky problem

At the moment Torres is playing so well that whoever partners him is going to look second best. Crouch today looked very ordinary but still won a penalty and worked the Bolton defence hard. Even Kuyt would be ok with Torres on this sort of form. The problem is when Torres doesn't play (either through injury or because he needs a rest) because I wouldn't like to rely on any of the other 2 out of 3 to create and score the goals we need. Crouch is probably our second best striker but the gulf in class between him, Kuyt and Voronin is slim compared to the gulf in class between the 3 of them and Torres.

If we have no long injuries to Torres, Gerrard, Reina and Carra I think we will come close this season, another top matchwinner for Christmas, or if Kewell really hits top form and I THINK WE WILL WIN IT.

To put it another way I would prefer Rafa to rotate 6 or 7 players a match as long as he leaves Torres, Gerrard, Reina and Carra in every week, rather than him make only 2 changes and leave out Gerrard and Torres.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:38 pm

s@int wrote:I think you are getting the wrong idea about rotation Mick, the idea is not just that the team is fresher and fitter at the end of the season but that the squad maintains that sharpness THROUGHOUT the season. This is were I had my arguments about rotation "Rafa style", you don't need to rotate 6, 7, 8, players in a match (unless its a cup you don't really care about). 3 or 4 changes at most with NO MORE than one of your key players included in that number is sensible rotation. Always making sure that you have as many of your matchwinners in the side as possible. As we only really have two, thats a slightly sticky problem

At the moment Torres is playing so well that whoever partners him is going to look second best. Crouch today looked very ordinary but still won a penalty and worked the Bolton defence hard. Even Kuyt would be ok with Torres on this sort of form. The problem is when Torres doesn't play (either through injury or because he needs a rest) because I wouldn't like to rely on any of the other 2 out of 3 to create and score the goals we need. Crouch is probably our second best striker but the gulf in class between him, Kuyt and Voronin is slim compared to the gulf in class between the 3 of them and Torres.

If we have no long injuries to Torres, Gerrard, Reina and Carra I think we will come close this season, another top matchwinner for Christmas, or if Kewell really hits top form and I THINK WE WILL WIN IT.

To put it another way I would prefer Rafa to rotate 6 or 7 players a match as long as he leaves Torres, Gerrard, Reina and Carra in every week, rather than him make only 2 changes and leave out Gerrard and Torres.

Spot on there saint and i think your right about crouch mick ,he should be the one to partner torres at the moment. He frightens the life out of defenders with is hieght. If he's not scoring himself ,he's taking 2 and 3 defenders with him ,which inturn leaves alot of space for Torres to exploit. It happened a couple of times today and it's good to see them working so well together . Having said all that i think Rafa will continue to use Kuyt and Vorinin as partners foR Torres because that's simply what he likes to do .

by **Scottbot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:02 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Spot on there saint and i think your right about crouch mick ,he should be the one to partner torres at the moment. He frightens the life out of defenders with is hieght. If he's not scoring himself ,he's taking 2 and 3 defenders with him ,which inturn leaves alot of space for Torres to exploit. It happened a couple of times today and it's good to see them working so well together . Having said all that i think Rafa will continue to use Kuyt and Vorinin as partners foR Torres because that's simply what he likes to do .

You only have to listen to Rafa talk, he always bangs on about Voronin, Kuyt (previously Garcia, Morientes) "working between the lines". Crouch doesn't really offer off this (atleast not in the same way) so it does seem to be a toss-up between Torres and Crouch for that striker birth. I don't know how many times Crouch and Torres have started a game this season but it's not looking bad is ti. 4 goals against bolton plus another 4 goals (for the team) against Reading the Cup. I maintained that Torres and Crouch would end up our first choice partnership this season despite so many claiming Kuyt was gonna have a big year. I still maintain that this will be the case.

by **lakes10** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:22 pm

the thing is with rotation is that one game you get the right mix.......then you use rotation and you might not get the right mix on the next game.

I would love to see the same team sheet week after week but that is not going to happen with Rafa and never will. I just hope we get the right mix more often than the wrong mix.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:26 pm

On the point of rotation, what I'll say is that I'd struggle to name you our best 11. There are at least a few positions that I have no real preference who plays there (left back, right back, right wing), and that in itself makes the case for rotation. It's all about having the depth to pull it off, and as we're showing right now, we do have genuine options that can all come in and do a job.

Rotation falls down when all the options become limited, either due to injury or loss of form. Left wing was a case in point. Riise and Babel both got a look in there a while back, but both were really, really poor. Up front also, as during the real blip when we went through a couple of 0-0 results, none of Kuyt, Voronin or Crouch looked massively threatening.

When all your options are in form, great. When they aren't, and a player comes in and has a stinker, that's when this thread gets busy. In the coming months, we'll start to really see if rotation can work over the course of the season, but as I write this, with us in 3rd spot, still unbeaten, and still active in all the cups, there's no question from me that it looks like Rafa's on to something. I don't agree with his selection every week, but if who he puts out on the park get us results, then you won't hear me b*tching and moaning.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:32 pm

The point is, Rafa believes that over the course of the season we will gain more points than we will lose through using rotation. The problem for him is that when you lose points through rotation it is very obvious and everyone will point fingers at it (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant, the point is that is a very convenient scapegoat), but measuring the points gained through rotation is impossible and no one ever attributes victories or good runs of forms down to rotation.

Rafa is very adamant in his belief that rotation is worth it over the course of the season, but unfortunately for him, the only way to coming close to proving this is by having a trophy in his hand at the end of the season, and even then people will blame rotation for him not holding another one in the other hand.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:33 pm

I've always been an in-betweener when it comes to rotation and that doesn't really change whether we are winning every week or losing. It pi.s..s..es me off sometimes (ie. the Pompey game) but i'm resigned to it and, as we know, it is Rafa's way and it will NEVER change.

On the plus side (this may have already been talked about in the previous 500 pages!) we must be an absolute nightmare to prepare for. We don't know what line-up the manager will put out, the players don't have a clue so you can bet the other team are clueless. Take the Newcastle game last week, what the fook was that formation? In the 1st half we played with no right-winger, Kewell on the left and Gerrard playing wherever he fancied. The sencond half Kewell switched to the right, Gerrard went wherever he wanted and we played without a left winger. And it worked!

by **Kharhaz** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:49 pm

Just thought of a song for rafa, to the chorus of the Temptation song:

All I desire (rotation)
Is Gerrard or Carra (rotation)
I'll swap sami for agger (rotation)
And then riise for arbeloa (rotation)

Sorry not my fault blame the Reinavision thread !

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:55 pm

s@int wrote:It was what is known as a blip in form Mick. Every team has them, even in the bad old days before rotation, teams still had them. It may have been a costly blip, but if we go the rest of the season without any more I am pretty certain we will have won the title.(although Arsenal are beginning to worry me )

By Christmas I would imagine we will know if we are in the race for the long haul, or if we have just been fooling ourselves all along. My main worry is loss of form or injury to Torres, not rotation. Without him we look pretty toothless up front, and I just hope to god they let Rafa buy another matchwinner at Christmas.

The whole point to rotation is it gets all the squad fit , and keeps them fit, so the idea of going for a dozen games or so without rotating is a bit silly really mate. By that time half the squad wont be match fit or sharp. It defeats the whole object of rotation.

Which is were my worries about Torres come in, how the hell can we rotate Torres when we have no adequate replacement for him. No disrespect to our other strikers but its a bit like rotating Zenden in for Gerrard. I disagree Mick, we couldn't afford to rest Torres earlier in the season AND WE STILL CAN'T.

This is my main criticism of the squad, we still have too many players with no adequate replacement. If Gerrard (our best player) or even Carra was injured we could probably just about cope, but imagine injury to Reina or Torres (title challenge over). Notice that these 4 are the players that Rafa rarely rotates now Mick? He will get them a rest when he can, gamble at times maybe that we can get a result without them , but he will play them as often as he can.

Nail. On. Head.

Saint, you've raised some excellent points that I'd like to expand on. First of all, this reality check about blips is so important. All top teams have them. For the record, the Mancs started this season with two draws and a loss. And, whilst our September looked like this: W-D-D-D-W-W, Chelsea's looked like this: L-D-D-L-W-D. Our blip suddenly doesn't look quite so bad, does it?

Now, onto the importance of Torres and I agree 100% that the lad has made himself undroppable. Just to keep things in the realm of fact rather than in the realm of myth, I think it's important to analyze when Torres has been dropped by Rafa this season. Discounting the four games where he was out injured, Torres has been rested six times this season. Two of those came against Toulouse in the Champions League qualifiers and we obviously didn't miss him against what turned out to be a glorified pub team. Torres was also rested, controversially, against Portsmouth and Birmingham in September. More recently, Torres was just back from injury and, thus, didn't start in the 8-0 rout of Besiktas (clearly, we managed without him). As a result, he also didn't start when Rafa decided to name an unchanged side to play Fulham. Now, given that one of the key arguments made by anti-rotationers was that Rafa should resist the urge to change the side when we play well, I doubt that many had any qualms about him starting the Fulham match on the bench.

So, when we talk about resting--or rotating--Torres, we really only seem to be talking about two games out of 23 so far: the Portsmouth game and the Brum game. Fair enough, Rafa opted to rest him in these two games and it didn't work. Now, I contend that we should have been able to cope without the lad for these matches but, the fact is, we didn't.

Does this mean rotation is to blame? No, because to me its not a rotation issue. It would be rotation if Rafa truly felt that Torres were just another striker, who could be replaced by one of the other four with no palpable effects. The fact is, though, that Rafa's team selections show that he doesn't see Torres as just another striker. When fit, Torres generally starts--like Gerrard, like Alonso, like Carra and like Reina. So, I think Saint's spot on when he says that Rafa will sometimes gamble and decide to rest Torres, just like he'll occasionally gamble and rest Stevie or Carra. In some cases (Besiktas, Fulham) we get away with it and sometimes (Pompey, Brum) we don't but it should be acknowledged that this is a situation where Rafa rests a star player, not rotates a squad player.

And, I think Saint is right to worry that we can seem so toothless without Torres in the line-up. I agree and this is why I hope that we'll sign another couple players of his calibre (striker and winger) before too long. Sharing the load among a quartet or quintet of quality players is what title-challenging teams do and we need reinforcing if we want to truly join those ranks.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:59 pm

Bad Bob wrote::bump for Peewee. Look at these numbers and tell me, how are we rotating less of late?

Bad Bob wrote:------------
SELECTED TEAMS TO DATE, 2007-2008 SEASON

STARTERS UNAVAILABLE

1)Aug. 11 (@ Villa): 1-2(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

2) Aug. 15 (@ Toulouse): 0-1(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Crouch
Voronin

[6 unforced changes from last match]

3) Aug. 19 (vs. Chelsea): 1-1(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

4) Aug. 25 (@ Sunderland): 0-2(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Gerrard
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Babel
Torres
Voronin

[3 unforced changes from last match]

5) Aug. 28 (vs. Toulouse): 4-0(W)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Riise
Benayoun
Sissoko
Mascherano
Leto
Crouch
Kuyt

[6 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL qualifier]

6) Sept. 1 (vs. Derby): 6-0(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

7) Sept. 15 (@ Portsmouth): 0-0(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Riise
Agger Mascherano
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Benayoun
Crouch
Voronin

[4 unforced changes from last match]

8) Sept. 18 (@ Porto): 1-1(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[6 unforced changes from last CL match]

9) Sept. 22 (vs. Birmingham): 0-0(D)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Riise Benayoun
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

10) Sept. 25 (@ Reading [Carling]): 2-4(W)

Itandje Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Arbeloa
Aurelio
Benayoun
Leiva
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[9 unforced changes from last match]

11) Sept. 29 (@ Wigan): 0-1(W)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Aurelio
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Kuyt
Torres
[7 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

12) Oct. 3 (vs. Marseille): 0-1(L)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Pennant
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last CL match]

13) Oct. 7 (vs. Tottenham): 2-2(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

14) Oct. 20 (@ Everton): 1-2 (W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Arbeloa
Riise Aurelio
Gerrard Torres
Sissoko
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Voronin

[1 unforced change from last match]

15) Oct. 24 (@ Besiktas): 2-1(L)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Agger
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia Aurelio
Riise Torres
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]

16) Oct. 28 (vs. Arsenal): 1-1(D)

Reina Agger
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia Pennant
Riise Sissoko
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Voronin
Kuyt
Torres

[1 unforced change from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

17) Oct. 31 (vs. Cardiff [Carling]): 2-1(W)

Itandje Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Torres
Hobbs Pennant
Aurelio Sissoko
El Zhar
Gerrard
Lucas
Leito
Babel
Crouch

[9 unforced changes from previous match]

18) Nov. 3 (@ Blackburn): 0-0(D)

Reina Alonso
Finnan Agger
Carragher Torres
Hyypia Pennant
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Sissoko
Babel
Kuyt

[8 unforced changes from last match]
[1 unforced change from last league match]

19) Nov. 6 (vs. Besiktas): 8-0(W)

Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

20) Nov. 10 (vs. Fulham):2-0(W)

Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[0 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

21) Nov. 24 (@ Newcastle): 0-3(W)
Reina Agger
Finnan Pennant
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Benayoun
Arbeloa
Gerrard
Sissoko
Lucas
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]

22) Nov. 28 (vs. Porto): 4-1(W)
Reina Agger
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Voronin
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

23) Dec. 2 (vs. Bolton): 4-0(W)
Reina Agger
Arbeloa Alonso
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia Finnan
Riise Aurelio
Benayoun
Lucas
Gerrard
Kewell
Crouch
Torres

[3 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last league match]

did i say it was down to the amount of rotation bob, i said it was down to over rotation and unnecessary rotation, there is a big difference between the point you are trying to make in your cut and paste and my belief

by **Scottbot** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:11 am

It's a bloody nightmare to talk about this rotation lark! I don't know how you guys manage it! It's pretty much impossible to prove anything for or against it, makes for some good debate but you untimately end up in stalemate.

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:52 am

Ah but soon all will become clear Scott. We will either challenge for the title or we won't, we'll finish in a position which is a fair reflection on our talent or we won't. Most people by now have nailed their colours to the mast as to what they consider to be a fair enough finishing position for the team. I would guess the consensus amongst just about everybody is that if we were to finish more than ten points off the top it wouldn't be a glowing endorsment for the system of rotation "Rafa style". Most people I think it's fair to say think that by rights we should finish within eight points or so for the title challenge to be considered in any way genuine ( and we may heve to make allowances for the "LFC 2007 factor", in which case as he pointed out we were bang in contention 'till the last couple of weeks before realising after a defeat that we couldn't win it. It is concieveable in such circumstances that we may rest the first team in order to prioritise a different competition.

For my part, I don't think it (Rafa-style rotation) is the best way to get the best out of a bunch of players over a protracted period and I've seen nothing recently which has made me change my mind. My feeling is that leaving both Torres and Gerrard out of the Portsmouth game was the rotational over fussiness which caused us to go off the rails when we didn't really need to. We desperately felt around during that period trying to rediscover some momentum, leading to the bizarre spectacle of us seeing our striker getting kicked around the pitch in an away Carling Cup third round tie, after being "rested" for league games around the same period. That he subsequently rendered the whole "resting" process entirely pointless by getting injured (a muscle injury as well) afterwards only compounded the problem.

Events since have shown that leaving Torres out of the games at Portsmouth and at home to Birmingham to be folly. Now no doubt somebody will point out that I actually advocated leaving Torres out of the Birmingham game, but I was wrong. I would put it right back to them that as I don't spend time on the training ground and don't have coaching badges

it's OK for me to get it wrong, not Ok for the manager though. What I found most annoying at the time was that we were resting players when the season had only just started, they had played less than ten games. We also chose to do it at one of the most difficult grounds in the League to go to. Quite how some people can cling to the notion that it wasn't a mistake, and a very costly one as it turned out is beyond me but there you go.

Now we are well and truly into a period where we have positive momentum, and we are doing it while rotating which is lovely. I did point out earlier that had our goalframe been not quite so resilient, open goals not been spurned so charitably and referees not been quite so oblivious to last minute fouls, we would most certainly be out of the title race already as a direct result of our loss of form. To suggest what we went through as a "blip" is putting quite a positve spin on things I must say

But all that said, we have certainly made my asserion that we were already out of it a few weeks back look a bit premature. Nobody is happier than me about that. Nobody will be happier than me if we break the habits of Rafa's tenure and get positive results at Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester United in the second half of the season, which we'll need to. The memory drifts back to last season though, Gerrard on the left at Stamford Bridge, Zenden in central midfield at the Emirates while Gerrard played on the right and I can't help thinking that at some point Rafa will loosen the wheels again. We are going to need to pick up points in some very difficult places, and I'm not sure changing the team every week will enable us to do it. Like I said though, I've got the humble pie ready. Unfortunately however, I'm not holding my breath on the staunchest "Rafa-style" pro's doing the same should it go pear-shaped. I'm waiting for the "yeah but you can't really blame rotation, which game did you think we didn't select a strong enough team in?" arguments.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:06 am

bigmick wrote:I did point out earlier that had our goalframe been not quite so resilient, open goals not been spurned so charitably and referees not been quite so oblivious to last minute fouls, we would most certainly be out of the title race already as a direct result of our loss of form. To suggest what we went through as a "blip" is putting quite a positve spin on things I must say

You're grasping at straws a bit for me with this approach, mate. After all, it's just as easy to say that, had Styles not fallen for Malouda's nonsense, had Kuyt been able to bury the gilt edged chances at Blackburn or had Torres been able to do in 30 minutes against Birmingham or 28 minutes against Portsmouth what he managed to do in 20 against Fulham (i.e. score the winning goal after coming on as a substitute), we would never have been talking about a blip in the first place. I'm fair certain that, in the last three years, both Man U and Chelsea have won titles with the help of a few dodgy refereeing decisions (Pedro Mendes?), a few lucky bounces off the woodwork (Kuyt at Stamford Bridge) and a few occasions where opponents missed sitters (ta very much, Djibril).

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:13 am

Events since have shown that leaving Torres out of the games at Portsmouth and at home to Birmingham to be folly. Now no doubt somebody will point out that I actually advocated leaving Torres out of the Birmingham game, but I was wrong. I would put it right back to them that as I don't spend time on the training ground and don't have coaching badges it's OK for me to get it wrong, not Ok for the manager though. What I found most annoying at the time was that we were resting players when the season had only just started, they had played less than ten games. We also chose to do it at one of the most difficult grounds in the League to go to. Quite how some people can cling to the notion that it wasn't a mistake, and a very costly one as it turned out is beyond me but there you go.

At the start of the season the players looked knackered when he was rotating and even I questioned as to how this rotation doo dah is giving the benefits to players that rafa proposed but the players have picked up and dont look as tired. I think winning the league is very possible, second half of seasons we have done very well and we are, should we win our game in hand and other fixtures, just 3 points behind the leaders. Arsenal players will get tired, they are a young team lets not forget, and they will go on a bad run. And if previous seasons is true to form then rafa has set liverpool up very nicely.

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