Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:34 am

redtrader74 wrote:Defences still play as a group, especially with regard to the offside line, regardless of zonal or man to man marking. I would not consider that zonal marking would allow changes in personnel to be less 'disruptive' than conventional defending. The fact is that during a period of rotation we have currently the best defence in the league, i'm not saying its because of rotation, but it would seem at first glance that rotation has not hindered it.

I wouldn't have thought in all honesty that while Hyppia has been playing and we've been defending on the edge of our own penalty area, offside has come overly into the equation to be perfectly honest. Even when Agger plays we don't play an offensive offside trap so aside from emptying the box after set plays, we hardly advance, George Graham's Arsenal style trying to trap people into being offside. If we did you wouldn't be able to rotate the back four every game and remain solid.

That's not a criticism of rotation BTW, it's simply stating a fact with regard a certain type of defending. Offensive offside traps absolutely depend upon there being an almost telepathic understanding of the way the unit is going to move up and back, it cannot be done with different personel every game. Without the understanding, built from hours and hours together on a training pitch, the system doesn't work. Even Rafa if you asked him would agree with me on that if that's what you mean (and to be honest it probably isn't). To be honest though, the way we defend with regards the offside situation should mean that people can come in and play unhindered, and they do.

As for zonal marking from set-pieces, it absolutely is possible to change the personel and create less disruption than it would be if you defended man to man in a mroe conventional British style. Of course it is because you are defending space as opposed to defending people. There would be a bit of confusion when Hyppia plays as opposed to Agger as Hyppia is a much better header of the ball than Agger and Liverpool will do everything in their power to ensure Sami stays central and is the main attacker of the football should it come accross the face of goal, but I would be amazed if the full-backs don't all defend the same zone. Rafa being as meticulous as he is, the reserve team defenders probably all defend the same zone as well.

Look I was and am one of the biggest advocates of zonal marking on here (don't believe all that nonsense about anti-rotationers being anti zonal marking), I was the staunchest advocate of the system even when it wasn't working. One of the main things in it's favour is its simplicity, the ability to practice it again and again, the idea that you can change a bloke and he still knows exactly what he's supposed to do. Why do people think Rafa likes zonal marking FFS? Because every player does it different? He likes it precisely because it enables him to rotate without disrupting the defensive pattern, and it makes perfect sense.

We have a very effective, extremely well coached defensive system which enables the manager to bring new faces in and the system to still work. I point this out, and I get an argument from the pro-rotationers

Feck me I give up sometimes I really do.

by **bigmick** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:51 am

Bad Bob wrote:RedTrader's already addressed your point about zonal marking quite nicely so I'll just respond to this bit, mate.

As I've said a couple of times now, the midfield against Newcastle was the anomaly and the changes made for the Porto match were the resumption of normal service. The Newcastle match was an experiment borne out of the exertions and lack of preparation associated with the international break...exacerbated by ongoing injuries to Alonso, Pennant and, to a lesser extent, Benayoun. Moreover, given that Mascherano had once again just flown back from South America, Rafa opted to give him a rest. That left Rafa Gerrard, Sissoko, Lucas, Kewell and Babel to choose from. Now, personally, I would have opted for the more orthodox midfield of Babel, Gerrard, Lucas and Kewell but, feck it, Rafa's never shy to experiment when we play Newcastle and he opted to roll the dice again. And, the result shows that the gamble paid off.

Now, does that mean that he should have stuck to the same midfield for an absolutely vital Champions League tie--a match his job is palpably riding on--against a technically gifted team full of tricky forwards and wide men? Does it feck--we'd have been eaten alive if we played that Newcastle line-up against Porto.

Now, Mick, I hear you saying 'but, all four changes?' On that, we probably agree because I would have liked to see Kewell on from the start against Porto. On the other hand, he had just made his first start for us in 18 months and had only just managed a full 90 minutes the week before. No use putting the man of glass under undue strain so soon after his comeback or we wouldn't see him again until 2009 (or, more likely, his "delighted to be here" press conference at Craven Cottage or Fratton Park). And, I've already gone into a great deal of detail as to why I think it would have been, shall we say, tactically naive to play Gerrard at RM in this game--either he'd leave the right flank woefully exposed or he'd contribute little to our attack.

So, yes, in the circumstances, I can understand why Rafa swapped around his whole midfield. As it happened, it worked--or at least didn't cost us the needed win so fair play to the man, I say.

Oh aye he addressed the point about zonal marking quite nicely

As for the rest of it Bob, it worked as we won you won't get an argument from me on that score. I don't think we needed to change the whole midfield though. Masherano rightly came back in, and he could have left it at that. Did the introduction of Benayoun and Babel improve the team over Gerrard and Kewell? No not in my opinion anyway. Was kewell exausted after his exersions at St James? I wouldn't have thought so.

And what of Kuyt? Scores his first goal from open play for ages and is rotated, for Voronin :no

No I'm sorry Bob, it's over fussy for me. As you've correctly pointed out, Rafa is going to live and die by his methods and he isn't for changing. My feeling is that if we are out of the League very soon, then he may be able to rest his first choice players to the extent that in February/March they will be fresher than their opponents in the Champions League (assuming we beat marseilles which is no certainty). Other than that though, there won't be any discernable benefit and we will perpetually be a bad performance away from complete derailment as we chop and change while trying to find that winning formula again.

To be fair to you mate, you've called it for a while now. Best we strap ourselves in, and ride the rollercoaster. It'll either prove one side right or the other. My prediction based on the selection policies is that we will finish up more than ten points off the winners in the Premiership, around twelve points back if I was ahving a bet. If we selected more sensibly (IMHO of course), we'd be less than half that away come the day of reckoning in my opinion. We'll see.

Until then, there's not much point in debating it really. In the meantime, if stuff like the zonal marking comes up or playing the offside and where I think somebody is way off reality, I'll comment on that just purely to put my point of view accross.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:11 pm

bigmick wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:RedTrader's already addressed your point about zonal marking quite nicely so I'll just respond to this bit, mate.

As I've said a couple of times now, the midfield against Newcastle was the anomaly and the changes made for the Porto match were the resumption of normal service. The Newcastle match was an experiment borne out of the exertions and lack of preparation associated with the international break...exacerbated by ongoing injuries to Alonso, Pennant and, to a lesser extent, Benayoun. Moreover, given that Mascherano had once again just flown back from South America, Rafa opted to give him a rest. That left Rafa Gerrard, Sissoko, Lucas, Kewell and Babel to choose from. Now, personally, I would have opted for the more orthodox midfield of Babel, Gerrard, Lucas and Kewell but, feck it, Rafa's never shy to experiment when we play Newcastle and he opted to roll the dice again. And, the result shows that the gamble paid off.

Now, does that mean that he should have stuck to the same midfield for an absolutely vital Champions League tie--a match his job is palpably riding on--against a technically gifted team full of tricky forwards and wide men? Does it feck--we'd have been eaten alive if we played that Newcastle line-up against Porto.

Now, Mick, I hear you saying 'but, all four changes?' On that, we probably agree because I would have liked to see Kewell on from the start against Porto. On the other hand, he had just made his first start for us in 18 months and had only just managed a full 90 minutes the week before. No use putting the man of glass under undue strain so soon after his comeback or we wouldn't see him again until 2009 (or, more likely, his "delighted to be here" press conference at Craven Cottage or Fratton Park). And, I've already gone into a great deal of detail as to why I think it would have been, shall we say, tactically naive to play Gerrard at RM in this game--either he'd leave the right flank woefully exposed or he'd contribute little to our attack.

So, yes, in the circumstances, I can understand why Rafa swapped around his whole midfield. As it happened, it worked--or at least didn't cost us the needed win so fair play to the man, I say.

Oh aye he addressed the point about zonal marking quite nicely

As for the rest of it Bob, it worked as we won you won't get an argument from me on that score. I don't think we needed to change the whole midfield though. Masherano rightly came back in, and he could have left it at that. Did the introduction of Benayoun and Babel improve the team over Gerrard and Kewell? No not in my opinion anyway. Was kewell exausted after his exersions at St James? I wouldn't have thought so.

And what of Kuyt? Scores his first goal from open play for ages and is rotated, for Voronin No I'm sorry Bob, it's over fussy for me. As you've correctly pointed out, Rafa is going to live and die by his methods and he isn't for changing. My feeling is that if we are out of the League very soon, then he may be able to rest his first choice players to the extent that in February/March they will be fresher than their opponents in the Champions League (assuming we beat marseilles which is no certainty). Other than that though, there won't be any discernable benefit and we will perpetually be a bad performance away from complete derailment as we chop and change while trying to find that winning formula again.

To be fair to you mate, you've called it for a while now. Best we strap ourselves in, and ride the rollercoaster. It'll either prove one side right or the other. My prediction based on the selection policies is that we will finish up more than ten points off the winners in the Premiership, around twelve points back if I was ahving a bet. If we selected more sensibly (IMHO of course), we'd be less than half that away come the day of reckoning in my opinion. We'll see.

Until then, there's not much point in debating it really. In the meantime, if stuff like the zonal marking comes up or playing the offside and where I think somebody is way off reality, I'll comment on that just purely to put my point of view accross.

Fair enough, mate.

To clarify, I was applauding RT because your previous post seemed to imply that defending set pieces was just about all our defenders needed to coordinate on. So, I was glad to see someone mentioning holding the line for offsides. You'll know much more than me about the nuances of that stuff, mate, but even if we do play a deep line, there still needs to be some coordination and we do still force quite a few offsides. Let's not dismiss that.

As for Kuyt, I didn't mention him because you had spoken about the midfield in the earlier post and that's what I wanted to respond to. I agree, though, there was no need to bring Voronin in for Kuyt. I suppose Rafa sees Voronin as suited to the CL, especially after the Besiktas game, but I don't think he offers us much more than Kuyt, TBH. He works hard but, in terms of attacking contribution, he runs hot and cold. Sticking with Kuyt after the goal would have made sense rather than Voronin. That said, I would have personally played Crouch ahead of Kuyt--goal or no goal. I, you and almost everyone but Owzat rates Crouchy as our second best striker and wants to see him paired with Torres. Rafa has other ideas, though, and has done for months so I guess we'll continue to be frustrated.

Again, I say that there are two varieties of rotation that we see under Rafa. The first is rotating in positions of relative strength--particularly the fullbacks and central midfielders. In these positions we have genuine quality options available and we have Rafa's ability to instill sound defensive tactics into whoever is selected as FBs and CMs. As a consequence, when Rafa rotates in these positions I generally have no qualms.

Conversely, we also have rotation in positions of relative weakness--namely, on the flanks and up top. In these positions, bar Torres and a fit Harry Kewell, we have a number of decent players who nonetheless never quite seem to find the consistent levels of excellence needed to make them undroppable. Added to this is the fact, I think, that Rafa is more comfortable setting up the team to be defensively solid rather than expansive in attack. In this set-up the attackers are not encouraged to flow forward with gay abandon and are very much expected to expend a lot of energy defending from the front. When you bring those factors together you get a gaffer that rotates a lot more, shall we say, experimentally in the wide positions and up top, looking for fresh players to come in to chase and harry defenders and who might provide that creative spark that isn't inherently built into the system.

It is these latter rotations that frustrate me because they only swap decent players for decent players while potentially disrupting any attacking rhythm and flow. I think/hope, though, that if we were to sign one or two more players of the quality of Torres, Rafa would start selecting a much more settled attacking unit and we'd see that elusive balance that Saint is correctly emphasizing much more often.

by **Judge** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:38 pm

i just got an email from an insider on the issue of team selection

It read: there is no rotation policy at lfc, and rafa certainly does not rotate the players ever, he is adament. The lads flip coins, and whoever loses doesnt play

it went onto say ive seen the rotation thread and now thats cleared up, you can delete it from your forum

straight up lads, breaking news that !

by **bigmick** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:22 pm

redtrader74 wrote:The fact is that during a period of rotation we have currently the best defence in the league, i'm not saying its because of rotation, but it would seem at first glance that rotation has not hindered it.

As usual Bob, yours is an intersting take and it'll take me a while to come back with anything coherent to add. Similarly Red does make lots of excellent points as well. This one above has really got me thinking, and I had to give myself some time to chew it over.

I would actually go a little further than Red and forget the "at first glance" bit. He is spot on right that we have got the best defence in the League right now, the facts and our own eyes tell us that. Equally, it would be churlish and stupid of any anti-rotationer to deny that the chopping and changing of the back four has hindered our defensive abilities by even one per cent as of late. It also bears pointing out that this defensive stability has been achieved while having a centre-half playing regularly who is probably not quite as good as he used to be, and furthermore would probably not get a game at any of the other big four. Whichever way you look at it, it has to be said that to achieve that while rotating the full backs as much as we have is a fantastic achievement by the players and coaching staff.

It also follows of course that such an achievement is a huge surprise to myself. had you have asked me if such a thing were possible, even given the facts that we defend zonally, have possibly been a tad fortunate with our fixture list and various of our oppenents hitting the post etc, and the fact that we don't play offensive offside, I would have said no. Therefore I would have been wrong and am happy to hold my hand up and admit it. Well done to the players, and I must say in particular to the coaching staff and the manager for achieving that "watertightness".

So does it mean rotation can work? Well it does mean in a defensive sense that we can rotate the full-backs and remain solid. The facts of the situation prove that. It doesn't mean though that in an offensive sense, we can alter who plays with who, and in some cases the identity of both who's, and still find the required fluency and rhythm I wouldn't have thought. Now it won't be long before somebody posts up that we've scored fourteen goals in the last four games or whatever it is, and we have (if indeed that is the right stat). We did though score eight goals in one of them, so it is distorted just a fraction. Equally, I would venture that we don't necessarily need to score eight, just one when it matters is normally enough.

It's good though that we are running into form. It's also good that we are rotating while we are doing it. It's going to make for an interesting debate as the season goes on.

Now after feeding the pro-rotationers the line about defensive stability being glaringly obvious despite the fact we have changed the full backs constantly, here's the next gift to the pro-rotationers. As we are now well into the season, and as most of the players have reached match fitness through playing for their country, occasional run-outs in the first team etc etc, is it possible that rotation actually works more effectively once all the players are fit? Is it possible that if we played Pompey away now, as opposed to six weeks ago that we could afford to rest Torres? Particularly given what we now know (ie that Crouch is by a distance our second best striker), could it be done? NEXT season, what if we didn't rotate quite so much for the first twelve games, and then went into the rotation "Rafa style".

I don't actually think the above is a massively sensible policy, but I think it's more sensible than the way we have done it this season, and I'm surprised none of the pro's have suggested it so far. Maybe come the end of the season, when the results show that our draws at pompey and at home to Birmingham were the begining of a month long run of results which cost us any chance of winning the title, someone will suggest it then. We'll see.

by **zarababe** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:47 pm

Judge for Mod - thanks for setting the record straight Ace..

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:29 pm

It was what is known as a blip in form Mick. Every team has them, even in the bad old days before rotation, teams still had them. It may have been a costly blip, but if we go the rest of the season without any more I am pretty certain we will have won the title.(although Arsenal are beginning to worry me )

By Christmas I would imagine we will know if we are in the race for the long haul, or if we have just been fooling ourselves all along. My main worry is loss of form or injury to Torres, not rotation. Without him we look pretty toothless up front, and I just hope to god they let Rafa buy another matchwinner at Christmas.

The whole point to rotation is it gets all the squad fit , and keeps them fit, so the idea of going for a dozen games or so without rotating is a bit silly really mate. By that time half the squad wont be match fit or sharp. It defeats the whole object of rotation.

Which is were my worries about Torres come in, how the hell can we rotate Torres when we have no adequate replacement for him. No disrespect to our other strikers but its a bit like rotating Zenden in for Gerrard. I disagree Mick, we couldn't afford to rest Torres earlier in the season AND WE STILL CAN'T.

This is my main criticism of the squad, we still have too many players with no adequate replacement. If Gerrard (our best player) or even Carra was injured we could probably just about cope, but imagine injury to Reina or Torres (title challenge over). Notice that these 4 are the players that Rafa rarely rotates now Mick? He will get them a rest when he can, gamble at times maybe that we can get a result without them , but he will play them as often as he can.

by **Torres 2007** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:41 am

Hi dudes.

just my 2 pence worth in here on this topic.

Rafa thinks he can achieve success with his rotation policy, as regards freshness of players etc.

I say dont judge him now, judge him in may if we are 21 points off the league summit, like last term.

if we win the league no probs, but all i can say, Rafa must think that the players he replaces the replaced with each game, or in Europe or whatever, must be of same ability/ quality/ striking ability etc.

For example, replacing stevie with mascerano/ sissoko, maybe not a fair swap in terms of quality?

Or Torres with Crouch/Voronin?

etc.

see what happens come may, is all i will say.

leave this argument till then.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:27 pm

for Peewee. Look at these numbers and tell me, how are we rotating less of late?

Bad Bob wrote:------------
SELECTED TEAMS TO DATE, 2007-2008 SEASON

STARTERS UNAVAILABLE

1)Aug. 11 (@ Villa): 1-2(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

2) Aug. 15 (@ Toulouse): 0-1(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Crouch
Voronin

[6 unforced changes from last match]

3) Aug. 19 (vs. Chelsea): 1-1(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

4) Aug. 25 (@ Sunderland): 0-2(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Gerrard
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Babel
Torres
Voronin

[3 unforced changes from last match]

5) Aug. 28 (vs. Toulouse): 4-0(W)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Riise
Benayoun
Sissoko
Mascherano
Leto
Crouch
Kuyt

[6 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL qualifier]

6) Sept. 1 (vs. Derby): 6-0(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

7) Sept. 15 (@ Portsmouth): 0-0(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Riise
Agger Mascherano
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Benayoun
Crouch
Voronin

[4 unforced changes from last match]

8) Sept. 18 (@ Porto): 1-1(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[6 unforced changes from last CL match]

9) Sept. 22 (vs. Birmingham): 0-0(D)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Riise Benayoun
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

10) Sept. 25 (@ Reading [Carling]): 2-4(W)

Itandje Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Arbeloa
Aurelio
Benayoun
Leiva
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[9 unforced changes from last match]

11) Sept. 29 (@ Wigan): 0-1(W)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Aurelio
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[7 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

12) Oct. 3 (vs. Marseille): 0-1(L)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Pennant
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last CL match]

13) Oct. 7 (vs. Tottenham): 2-2(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

14) Oct. 20 (@ Everton): 1-2 (W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Arbeloa
Riise Aurelio
Gerrard Torres
Sissoko
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Voronin

[1 unforced change from last match]

15) Oct. 24 (@ Besiktas): 2-1(L)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Agger
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia Aurelio
Riise Torres
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]

16) Oct. 28 (vs. Arsenal): 1-1(D)

Reina Agger
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia Pennant
Riise Sissoko
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Voronin
Kuyt
Torres

[1 unforced change from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

17) Oct. 31 (vs. Cardiff [Carling]): 2-1(W)

Itandje Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Torres
Hobbs Pennant
Aurelio Sissoko
El Zhar
Gerrard
Lucas
Leito
Babel
Crouch

[9 unforced changes from previous match]

18) Nov. 3 (@ Blackburn): 0-0(D)

Reina Alonso
Finnan Agger
Carragher Torres
Hyypia Pennant
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Sissoko
Babel
Kuyt

[8 unforced changes from last match]
[1 unforced change from last league match]

19) Nov. 6 (vs. Besiktas): 8-0(W)

Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

20) Nov. 10 (vs. Fulham):2-0(W)

Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[0 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

21) Nov. 24 (@ Newcastle): 0-3(W)
Reina Agger
Finnan Pennant
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Benayoun
Arbeloa
Gerrard
Sissoko
Lucas
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]

22) Nov. 28 (vs. Porto): 4-1(W)
Reina Agger
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Voronin
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

23) Dec. 2 (vs. Bolton): 4-0(W)
Reina Agger
Arbeloa Alonso
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia Finnan
Riise Aurelio
Benayoun
Lucas
Gerrard
Kewell
Crouch
Torres

[3 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last league match]

24) Dec. 8 (@ Reading):3-1 (L)
Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hobbs Aurelio
Riise Finnan
Gerrard
Sissoko
Mascherano
Voronin
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from previous match]

25) Dec. 11 (@ Marseille): 0-4 (W)
Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia Finnan
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

26) Dec. 16 (vs. Man U): 0-1 (L)
Reina Agger
Arbeloa Alonso
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia Finnan
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[0 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

27) Dec. 19 (@ Chelsea [Carling Cup]): 2-0 (L)
Itandje Agger
Arbeloa Pennant
Carragher Finnan
Hobbs
Aurelio
Voronin
Sissoko
Alonso
Lucas
Babel
Crouch

[7 unforced changes from last match]

28) Dec. 22 (vs. Portsmouth): 4-1 (W)
Reina Agger
Arbeloa Pennant
Carragher Finnan
Hyypia
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[7 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:34 pm

I wouldn't waste your breath, Bob.

Some people just think they are right, no matter what the facts state.

by **Sabre** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:55 pm

I sell rose-tinted glasses. Take your rose-tinted glasses, one pound each. If you pay two, you get three.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:00 pm

Sabre wrote:I sell rose-tinted glasses. Take your rose-tinted glasses, one pound each. If you pay two, you get three.

Right here mate!

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:13 pm

Bizarre argument to make after a comfortable win like that. When we lose - it's the problem. When we win - he's been right all along about rotation but it's just that Rafa's now dropping the right players. :laugh:

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:47 pm

Anyone remember the zonal marking issue?

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:59 pm

For us on the happy clappy pro- rotational ferry it's starting to come together, however as regards our friends on the good ship fickle(joke) they will have plenty of cause to argue there case. It won't always be as easy as it seems to have been over the last couple of games(starting with the mancs). We are not far apart atall with each other really and i kind of agree with peewee. we keep our core players in the team most games and we rotate with the rest, it's just a matter of how many we rotate we disagree on imo and on wether rafa is to blame or not.

Torres will be rested at some stage and the key is for the rest of the stikers not to let that effect there abilities to create and score goals. We have a better squad now,it's definatley showing.
We can rotate the defense with it having little effect on our ability to defend. Now imo opinion we can rotate in midfielf without it having little effect on our abilities to control and create from he middle of the park. Upfront is where the problem lies .
We seem to be a little toothless upfront when Torres doesn't play. The paring upfront should always be Torres and a n other at the moment. Hopefully if Rafa can buy another striker of equal ability to Torres in January(igor say's this firmly believing there's no chance) then i think we are defo on for a strong title challenge , if he can't i still think we are capable of giving it a good go with who we have.

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