Liverpool FC Forum

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:31 am

Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez praised the 'inspiration' of Steven Gerrard in keeping his side's Premier League title challenge alive.

The Reds appeared to be heading for a 1-1 draw with Derby at Pride Park after Fernando Torres' opener was cancelled out by James McEveley.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_3006357,00.html

However, Liverpool captain Gerrard was on hand to strike a 90th minute winner and Benitez believes the victory will give his side confidence.

Liverpool travel to Manchester City, who have won all their home league games this season, on Sunday and Benitez is eyeing another three point haul.

"We conceded in the second half from a mistake and from then on it was really difficult," said Benitez. "At the end, Gerrard's inspiration was the key.

"We have three points, we have to think about City and see where we are after this period.

"We know they (Man City) will be difficult but we have confidence. They have a very good record at home but we will try to change that."

by **maguskwt** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:47 am

Toffeehater wrote:rafa could be charged

wouldn't worry about the bust up... happens all the time...

worried about our CB situation though...

by **The_Rock** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:51 am

Toffeehater wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
john craig wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
Santa wrote:Utter bl00dy hopeless...our midfield was overrun...Veronin did ...why no Mascherano to steady the midfield and allow Gerrard to play higher? For a Brazilian, Auerlio sure can't pass and Babel was aweful at the wing!!! The only saving grace was the 3 lucky points...thank god for Gerrard. Second best (and nearly loss) against the bottom team who can't score at home that's saying something...I wonder what was in Rafa's thoughts...

Dude..u echo my points.

For Gerrard to play to his potential, he needs Mash behind him.

For me babel is a waste of money...I know ppl here are saying give him time...but my thoughts are he is not good enough. Maybe he could make a good striker (but he has to play there for me to have an opinion about him)..but rafa keeps playing him on the wings...and babel keeps doing a "sissoko"

If Rafa hadn't bought Lucas (8 million) and Babel (11 million)...we could have bought a 19 million star player....but rafa decided to buy quantity instead of quality..and now he is saying we need to buy more 20 million players

How about getting rid of the deadwood 1st ? I mean balance the
books before buying. The owners already have enough problem paying for the stadium....

2 questions...

1) Who do you consider to be the deadwood?

2) What is your definition of 'deadwood' in this context?

a)Deadwood
i)For starters these players are not good enough
1)Kuyt
2)Voronin (Huge wage)
3)Sissoko
4)Auerlio (Reduce wage)
5)And all those tons of reserve players he has bought ... Are they even good enough in the 1st place ? Think we have the largest squad in the league.

ii)If we can get better replacements
1)Riise
2)Pennant
3)Either one of Carson & Charles Itan**** (SP ?)
4)Crouch
5)Babel - yeah...i am saying Babel. He is just a forward sissoko. We got rid of cisse for having no brains....well babel is about the same as him.

b)Defination of Deadwood in a footballing world.
Players not good enough to represent the club (if we want to have title aspirations).

babel wow rock? 2 starts in 12 , 6 goals , thats not bad for some1 who has played a subs role almost all his liverpool career so far . Babel's first season and people already writing him off? what if it was torres mate? would u be saying the same thing? . he has had 1 bad game and u guys are already toking abt getting rid of him ..

Lets not kid ourselves....rafa bought babel has a winger..and he has not at all impressed whenever he played on the wings.

Like i said...i will give babel his due (like how i gave kuyt his due last season)....But i still retain my opinion that come next season ...ppl will be talking about babel how they are talking about kuyt. I knew Kuyt wasn't good enough last season (although i did mention he wil contribute more if he just stays in the opposition penalty box )... And more ppl are convinced that Kuyt is a major disappointment for 9 million pounds (seeing how benny macarthy, anelka cost less than him...and for a few million more, we could have gotten berbatov).

Please note that i base my opinion on babel on how he performs as a LW or RW. I don't care if he performs like a world class players as a striker because rafa doesn't play him there FWIW...Rafa persists on playing babel on the wing...and for what i see from his performance there....it is not enough.

As long as rafa plays Babel as a winger, he won't be good enough for us. Same as Kuyt.... As long Rafa plays Kuyt as a headless chicken...he won't be good enough for us.

decent enough view mate but shipping him out just cos of that? i think he has done a decent job from the wings , only in the 2nd half yesterday derby started closing him down and he came absolutely sh!te

IF Torres was played as a LW or RW (although i think he might do a better job than babel as he is class {similar to gerrard who can almost play anywhere}), and he keeps disappointing....i will also start a "Get rid of torres" thread.

Seriously .....thats the way it is......

Its either get rid of winger torres (as he is not a winger) or manager rafa.... (who keeps playing him there no matter what).

It does not matter if Torres is a world class striker...as he doesn't get played in that position.....

So likewise...if rafa persists in playing babel on the wings...i can tell u half a dozen wingers who are better than him (and you don't even have to go overseas).

1)Lennon
2)Bentley
3)Zakora - newcastle
4)Malbranque
5)Duff
6)Agonbolour (sp ?)

And i am not even adding ronaldo, ashley young, SWP, jole cole to the list....

by **bigmick** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:14 am

maguskwt wrote:... rafa is rotating according to games partly because our team is NOT good enough. so that each team he sents out is tailor-made to counter the other team's strengths sometimes he gets it wrong, alot of the times he gets it right... the funny thing here is he's sometimes guilty of being overly tactical against weak teams... but not in this game... and before you say this is the squad he assembled, newsflash this is not championship manager...

No, sorry I can't have that. Rafa is rotating "partly because the team is not good enough"? So if the team were better Rafa would not rotate like he does? If the team were better we wouldn't have seen five six seven changes per match in the early months of the season? Nope sorry mate but that's just not the case and I think on reflection you'd probably accept that. Rafa is a rotater by nature, it's his instinct to change the team regularly and to build a "squad", which gives ever more "options" and "possibilities".

As we get into the guts of the season, just like when we were on a good run a few weeks back and the pro-rotationers were frantically checking for any changes in stance from the anti's, I'm going to be keeping the pro's honest. I'm expecting the "it wasn't rotation which cost us points earlier in the season, it was injuries". I've no doubt we'll get the "it's nothing to do with rotation, the squad/team simply wasn't upto it" but I must confess the notion that Rafa is in some way forced into a corner whereby he has to rotate is one I wasn't expecting. Just not true I'm afraid.

History is proving those of us who jumped up and down at the Pompey Away selection were just about on the money I reckon. Put it this way, if we were playing a top eight team Away anytime soon and Rafa decided to sit Gerrard and Torres on their respective erses there'd be one or two who would question the decision. Nobody forces the manager to rotate, he does it by choice. Time will tell if in this season, the fourth of "Rafa-style" the much sought after "delayed gazelle" syndrome can carry us into a genuine title challenge. If it doesn't (and I've made no secret of the fact I don't think it will) then I hope to feck we go for a more conventional method next season and don't have to go for a fifth go to see if we can make it work.

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:36 am

Xabi Alonso believes he and his teammates must learn from their narrow escape at Pride Park if they are to remain realistic title contenders this season.
Liverpool needed a last-minute strike from Steven Gerrard to claim victory at bottom club Derby on Boxing Day after a poor start to the second half which saw Jay McEveley cancel out Fernando Torres' opener.

All this came after a first half in which the Reds could have hit a sackful.

Alonso, who made his first league start for two months at Pride Park, is determined not to find himself in that position again.

The Spaniard said: "The first half was good in terms of football. We probably should have scored and killed the game and then in the second half we struggled a bit. We should have kept the ball better and not let them have so many chances.

"We were in control in the first half, then we had a few injured players. Sami and Ryan were struggling and we were not in control of the situation. We did not have the ball and weren't creating chances, so we can't be happy with the first 30 minutes of that second half.

"We have to think and try not to be in that position again because we had chances to win the game before the goal.

"We have to learn and not repeat what happened at Derby again."

Alonso has made just eight appearances this season after a double metatarsal blow.

He admits it's been a frustrating few months but feels full match fitness is not very far away.

"Of course when you are on the sidelines and injured, watching it from the boxes, it is frustrating, but I am back now and looking forward to the next few games.

"I'm getting that match fitness that you need. After playing against Chelsea last week, I was delighted to get another 90 minutes. I am getting there after almost three months out of the game.

"I felt okay against Derby. But it's up to the manager whether I will play against Manchester City."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N158190071227-1020.htm

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:41 pm

Derby 1, Liverpool 2 (Echo)Dec 27 2007

by Tony Barrett, Liverpool Echo

BACK in September a victory over Derby County left many Liverpool fans dreaming that this could finally be the season when their title dreams were realised.

Yesterday, a win against the same opponents resulted in the very same supporters questioning whether this is likely to be their year after all.

A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.

It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?

After taking the lead through a typically wonderful effort from Fernando Torres, that is exactly what Liverpool should have done.

The fact that they had to rely on Steven Gerrard yet again playing his ‘get out of jail’ card in the dying seconds tells us a lot of what took place in between.

Wasteful in possession, surprisingly lacking punch in attack despite creating a number of chances in the first half and increasingly shaky at the back, at times Liverpool were so poor they actually almost succeeded in making Derby look decent.

And the fact that certain players were, at best, unable or, at worst, unwilling to do the dirty work necessary to arrest such an alarming decline in performance is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of all.

It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"

Gerrard's match-winning intervention had nothing to do will footballing genius or some sort of God-given Midas touch. It was all to do with a will to win and a desire to do his best for his club that inspired him to surge 80 yards and get on the end of a loose ball in the box after Torres' close range effort had been saved.

Before that, the closest Liverpool had come to scoring a decisive second goal came when a shot cannoned off the underside of the crossbar before being smuggled to safety – again, the source was Gerrard.

As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds’ league goals so far this season.

But, if an Anfield title challenge is to transpire, it is time for the supporting cast to follow their example because unless the burden is spread in a more even fashion any hopes of usurping Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea will be dashed sooner rather than later.

Whipping boys don't come much more accommodating than Derby. The Premiership's own dead men walking are going from game to game just waiting to be put out of their misery and they are as there for the taking as a Grafton granny at throwing out time.

Under the guidance of new manager Paul Jewell they have shown more heart than previously, but remain the very same rank bad outfit which Liverpool demolished four months ago.

With the likes of the cumbersome Darren Moore at centre back, the out- of-his-depth Steve Howard leading the attack and Wigan reject Gary Teale in midfield, they are a Championship side in all but name.

In a few months time that's exactly where they will find themselves and yet for long spells of the second half against Liverpool they gave as good as they got against their far more illustrious opponents, being rewarded with a Jay McEveley equaliser which owed much to uncharacteristically poor defending at a set piece.

The fact that goal was scored following the departure of Sami Hyypia with a twisted ankle should come as no surprise. Liverpool have been an accident waiting to happen in central defence all season and without a like-for-like replacement Benitez was forced to move John Arne Riise into an unfamiliar position, where he failed to excel.

The sooner Daniel Agger makes his long awaited return to fitness the better because as good as Jamie Carragher is and as well as Hyypia has done in recent weeks, Liverpool simply cannot continue to cope with such limited resources in such a critical position.

When weaknesses are being exposed by the likes of Derby you know you've got problems and only if they are solved immediately will Liverpool have any realistic chance of making an impression on the Premiership leaders.

As in September, it remains too early for any definitive answer to the question of whether Liverpool are title contenders or title pretenders.

But many more performances like this one and hopes of winning the league will be replaced by more mundane assessments being made.

DERBY: Price, Mears, Leacock, Moore (Feilhaber 46), McEveley, Teale (Earnshaw 56), Barnes, Pearson (Johnson 26), Lewis, Howard, Miller. Subs not used: Hinchliffe, Fagan.

LIVERPOOL: Reina, Finnan, Hyypia (Benayoun 54), Carragher, Riise, Babel (Kuyt 72), Gerrard, Alonso, Aurelio, Torres, Voronin (Lucas 90). Subs not used: Itandje, Mascherano.

BOOKED: McEveley.

GOALS: Torres 12 0-1, McEveley 67 1-1, Gerrard 90 1-2.

ATTENDANCE: 33,029

Ref: Alan Wiley (Staffordshire).

tonybarrett@liverpoolecho.co.uk

by **Sabre** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:48 pm

Had to see the game yesterday night and I have to agree it was not the best of games, but it surprises me that it's worth to mention, meaning, there are games like these for every Champion of any league, and the thing that makes you champion is that you're able to win those.

It's much better to play well and fait 30 chances and getting a draw. So, all in all, job done.

Good to see Alonso back, he needs a couple of games, and I'm sure Gerrard and Alonso will be grateful to have him around. I hope Bigmick agrees that Mascherano will be fresher on the important game in sunday.

Not that I'm too fan of tinkering with a lot of midfielders in important games, but I think that in weeks like this with many games having quality midfielders to rotate, or rest if you will it's a good thing.

by **zarababe** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:24 pm

Rafa squaring-up to jewel .. get in there boss

Pleased we won.. important to amass the points over christmas, with injuries in defence now, the 'pretty' football will come - wins are what count for now !

by **Owzat** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:54 pm

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:... rafa is rotating according to games partly because our team is NOT good enough. so that each team he sents out is tailor-made to counter the other team's strengths sometimes he gets it wrong, alot of the times he gets it right... the funny thing here is he's sometimes guilty of being overly tactical against weak teams... but not in this game... and before you say this is the squad he assembled, newsflash this is not championship manager...

No, sorry I can't have that. Rafa is rotating "partly because the team is not good enough"? So if the team were better Rafa would not rotate like he does?

On rotation, it seems that some are rotated more than others as I'm sure I've mentioned some time ago. Gerrard, Torres, Arbeloa, Reina and Carragher are present for most games so how come they're not 'rotated'? There might be more if Agger weren't injured, but it does seem like it isn't random. While a weak squad may not be the reason, some players not being rotated as much as others might back up that theory. Gerrard played in TWENTY consecutive Liverpool games, that made his substitution against Reading frustrating as did him scoring at the death against Derby.

Interestingly Torres' longest run of games without a goal is only three, however the eleven games he hasn't scored in have produced four draws and three defeats including two defeats in the three out of four recently (Reading and Man Utd) For all the waxing lyrical that comes from some regarding Rooney, before netting against Sunderland he had gone FIVE Premiership games without scoring and started the season with five without scoring. He tends to go on scoring and scoreless spells which is ok if the rest of the team score, problem for us is our goals come from Gerrard and Torres as epitomised yesterday

2007/8

Gerrard 12 goals
Torres 15 goals
Liverpool 62 goals

So Gerrard and Torres have scored 43.55% of our goals this season between them. Interestingly 41 of our 62 goals have come in the 9 games we've scored 3 or more in. That's 2/3 of our goals at 4.56 goals average while the other 20 games have produced just 21 goals. While we've scored 3 or more in 9 games, we've also fired blanks in 6 games. If only we'd get more

by **jedwards** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:58 pm

Our problem is Bentiez's squad, which is littered with so much below average players being acquired for highly top money (what a waste of money) the likes of Kuyt, Voronin (pony tail model- that is he worth) as a player he is :censored:

., and also Riise, Aurelio, the never improving Sissoko, Leto, etc.
As a striking force, we don't have anything that worth to shout about apart from Torres, Crouch ( if and when he is selected), and Babel when plays in central roll, but the other two Voronin, and Kuyt, they should never fit for the reserve too, a total waste money in purchase and wages!!!!., they will even struggle in English lower leagues.

Bentiez, thinks he has to very top class squad of players, but he is wrong, that is why he rotate so much and it is totally unnecessary, not knowing that his rotation is a constant damage for the team's moral and confidence, and it will not bring constancy in team performances, but you try to drum in this in his thick skull, he is totally a negative manager, far from clever tactician one. I think he will face his toughest test next Sunday against the fourth place spot favourite Man.City, I do not expect him to last this season, and this is simply of his own doing, he is losing control, I do expect he is not getting the players respect, and he will not win nothing this season as it was the case last season.

Thank You

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:16 pm

‘Liverpool frightened us’ says Derby manager

December 27, 2007

Derby are showing a marked improvement under new boss Paul Jewell. They fully deserved their point at Newcastle and could easily have bagged all three. On Boxing Day, only a late Steven Gerrard goal seperated them from Liverpool, although according to the Daily Mail, Jewell has accused his team of being ’scared’ of their opponents.

Jewell said: “There’s not much justice in the game, particularly after battling so hard in the second half.

“I was bitterly disappointed with the first-half display, we looked frightened, scared, of Liverpool.

“I couldn’t wait to get at them at half-time, only 1-0 down. But in the second half we showed fight, and that is what the supporters want to see.”

The prospect of survival now looks bleak for the Rams, with them firmly rooted to the bottom of the Premier League and marooned from their fellow relegation candidates. However, if they are to accumulate the points required to survive, they’re evidently going to have to stop respecting their opponents so much.

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2007....84.html

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:23 pm

Alonso urges Pool to find killer instinct
by Tom Kell, 27 December 2007
\Fit-again Xabi Alonso is adamant that Liverpool must become more clinical if they are to maintain their claims as genuine title contenders.

Rafa Benitez’s side surrendered the lead to bottom-of-the-table Derby on Boxing Day and were subsequently forced to rely on skipper Steven Gerrard’s last-minute strike in order to salvage a 2-1 win.

Alonso, back in the team after a lengthy spell on the sidelines with a metatarsal injury, feels he and his team-mates must learn to put results beyond doubt far earlier.

"We probably should have scored and killed the game and then in the second half we struggled a bit," he said to the club's official website.

"We have to think and try not to be in that position again because we had chances to win the game before the goal.

"We have to learn and not repeat what happened at Derby again.

Alonso also admitted his delight at being back in the fold at Anfield but was reluctant to take his place in the side for granted.

"Of course when you are on the sidelines and injured, watching it from the boxes, it is frustrating, but I am back now and looking forward to the next few games," he added.

"I'm getting that match fitness that you need. I felt okay against Derby. But it's up to the manager whether I will play against Manchester City [on Sunday]."

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:12 pm

jedwards wrote:

Our problem is Bentiez's squad, which is littered with so much below average players being acquired for highly top money (what a waste of money) the likes of Kuyt, Voronin (pony tail model- that is he worth) as a player he is ., and also Riise, Aurelio, the never improving Sissoko, Leto, etc.
As a striking force, we don't have anything that worth to shout about apart from Torres, Crouch ( if and when he is selected), and Babel when plays in central roll, but the other two Voronin, and Kuyt, they should never fit for the reserve too, a total waste money in purchase and wages!!!!., they will even struggle in English lower leagues.

Bentiez, thinks he has to very top class squad of players, but he is wrong, that is why he rotate so much and it is totally unnecessary, not knowing that his rotation is a constant damage for the team's moral and confidence, and it will not bring constancy in team performances, but you try to drum in this in his thick skull, he is totally a negative manager, far from clever tactician one. I think he will face his toughest test next Sunday against the fourth place spot favourite Man.City, I do not expect him to last this season, and this is simply of his own doing, he is losing control, I do expect he is not getting the players respect, and he will not win nothing this season as it was the case last season.

Thank You

Kill yourself.

Anyhoo...

I was at the match yesterday, and from what I could tell Gerrard and Alonso were easily the best two players on the pitch. Alonso didn't put a foot wrong.

Good to see our most important player fit again.

by **stmichael** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:55 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:I was at the match yesterday, and from what I could tell Gerrard and Alonso were easily the best two players on the pitch. Alonso didn't put a foot wrong.

Good to see our most important player fit again.

alonso inevitably tired as the game went on but i thought he was excellent first half. he really makes us tick when he's in the side.

as for gerrard, he was playing far too deep again for my liking until the last twenty minues when he was a man possessed. as the rock was saying, when gerrard plays centrally with alosno in a 4-4-2 he seems frightened to venture forward to me, and that's why alonso and mascherano have always been my preferred central partnership.

sky pi$$ me off though as they clearly have an agenda. the commentator on our game made a snide remark about how gerrard would be much better in madrid or barcelona's side which i thought was bang out of order. i then tuned in for the arsenal-pompey game and had to listen to richard keys and andy gray bleating on for the 100th time this season about how the game proved that gerrard "must play in the centre" again, blah, blah, blah, despite the fact that he was poor for 70 minutes. give it a fooking rest will ya?

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:42 pm

A few stats to compare our midfield marvels

Alonso v Derby and Mascherano v Portsmouth

Alonso Mascherano
Fouls 3 1
tackles won 0 5
passes 85 71
pass success 68 61
shots 3 2
clearances 0 6

The reason Gerrard may have been below par could be the fact that both he and Torres were recovering from food poisoning.

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