Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:35 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:My point is it might be time to start thinking about next seasons challenge in the league as of now, and preparing ourselves for it.

It always amazes me when Liverpool "fans" slag the players off for giving up without a fight, recently the manager was slagged off for throwing in the towel when we are losing at Reading with 2o minutes left and then we have threads liek this one.

Lets ive up on this season at the FUC.KING START OF DECEMBER !! and concentrate on next season.

I reckon that was what Rafa said at half time in Istanbul:

"Right boys, its time to give yourselves a chance to be heroes next season by playing a good half to prepare for pre seasons which starts in July"

JESUS H FUC.KING CHRIST

Well it's been a while coming Leon (your response to the doomers and gloomers that is) but I wouldn't have expected anything less and fair play to you for it. I actually think the "fans" in commas is understandable, and if people like me are being compared to "fans" who are from the city and go to the game regularly it's a fair enough point to make, to question my "fanness".

Just a couple of follow on points though. I have actually explained in some detail (typically) later on why I think it's probably all over for us in terms of winning the league this season. Though our recovery in Istanbul was remarkable, it was against one team and not three. My feeling ias that if we were merely chasing Arsenal, or even Man Utd then we would have chances, but not chasing all three of the other big four teams.

I think it's quite likely that not being as devout a "fan" as some (and it would be pointless to pretend that OOTers feel it the same as regular matchgoers from the city, I never have claimed that and anyway it's not my style) allows more clarity of thought on occasions, and maybe this is such an occasion.
I actually don't think my advocating playing Babel on a more regular basis as Torres's partner is giving up on thsi season FWIW. It just seems more sensible to me to play him than either Kuyt or Crouch. In the formers case it's because he won't ever be good enough, and in the latters case he will most likely be sold in the Summer anyway.

It simply makes more football sense to me. Maybe I would feel different if I hadn't emigrated to the other side of the World and was a regular matchgoer, but I've no way of knowing that one way or another. I wouldn't have thought though that my opinion, even if it does come accross as disloyal, fickle, or knee-jerky to some would have no effect on the players, the manager or anyone else for that matter.

Sorry though it is so annoying to some

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:36 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:My point is it might be time to start thinking about next seasons challenge in the league as of now, and preparing ourselves for it.

It always amazes me when Liverpool "fans" slag the players off for giving up without a fight, recently the manager was slagged off for throwing in the towel when we are losing at Reading with 2o minutes left and then we have threads liek this one.

Lets ive up on this season at the FUC.KING START OF DECEMBER !! and concentrate on next season.

I reckon that was what Rafa said at half time in Istanbul:

"Right boys, its time to give yourselves a chance to be heroes next season by playing a good half to prepare for pre seasons which starts in July"

JESUS H FUC.KING CHRIST

Well said Leon

Have to admit rarely do I agree with Leon, as he usuallt doesnt talk much football.

But I do agree with his sentiments exactly there.

Well you can fuc.k right off with that shi.t lad.

Grow up lad.

It was a joke yer tart.

I have inserted the smilie's I forgot before below:

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:43 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:My point is it might be time to start thinking about next seasons challenge in the league as of now, and preparing ourselves for it.

It always amazes me when Liverpool "fans" slag the players off for giving up without a fight, recently the manager was slagged off for throwing in the towel when we are losing at Reading with 2o minutes left and then we have threads liek this one.

Lets ive up on this season at the FUC.KING START OF DECEMBER !! and concentrate on next season.

I reckon that was what Rafa said at half time in Istanbul:

"Right boys, its time to give yourselves a chance to be heroes next season by playing a good half to prepare for pre seasons which starts in July"

JESUS H FUC.KING CHRIST

Well said Leon

Have to admit rarely do I agree with Leon, as he usuallt doesnt talk much football.

But I do agree with his sentiments exactly there.

Well you can fuc.k right off with that shi.t lad.

Grow up lad.

It was a joke yer tart.

I have inserted the smilie's I forgot before below:

Thats okay then.

Mick that particular sentence your wrote the other day didnt bother me. It was very negative though, but its really hard to pick your posts to bits as there so long.

But well written of course, you carry on being a doom munger, I need the support.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:51 am

bigmick wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:My point is it might be time to start thinking about next seasons challenge in the league as of now, and preparing ourselves for it.

It always amazes me when Liverpool "fans" slag the players off for giving up without a fight, recently the manager was slagged off for throwing in the towel when we are losing at Reading with 2o minutes left and then we have threads liek this one.

Lets ive up on this season at the FUC.KING START OF DECEMBER !! and concentrate on next season.

I reckon that was what Rafa said at half time in Istanbul:

"Right boys, its time to give yourselves a chance to be heroes next season by playing a good half to prepare for pre seasons which starts in July"

JESUS H FUC.KING CHRIST

Well it's been a while coming Leon (your response to the doomers and gloomers that is) but I wouldn't have expected anything less and fair play to you for it. I actually think the "fans" in commas is understandable, and if people like me are being compared to "fans" who are from the city and go to the game regularly it's a fair enough point to make, to question my "fanness".

Just a couple of follow on points though. I have actually explained in some detail (typically) later on why I think it's probably all over for us in terms of winning the league this season. Though our recovery in Istanbul was remarkable, it was against one team and not three. My feeling ias that if we were merely chasing Arsenal, or even Man Utd then we would have chances, but not chasing all three of the other big four teams.

I think it's quite likely that not being as devout a "fan" as some (and it would be pointless to pretend that OOTers feel it the same as regular matchgoers from the city, I never have claimed that and anyway it's not my style) allows more clarity of thought on occasions, and maybe this is such an occasion.
I actually don't think my advocating playing Babel on a more regular basis as Torres's partner is giving up on thsi season FWIW. It just seems more sensible to me to play him than either Kuyt or Crouch. In the formers case it's because he won't ever be good enough, and in the latters case he will most likely be sold in the Summer anyway.

It simply makes more football sense to me. Maybe I would feel different if I hadn't emigrated to the other side of the World and was a regular matchgoer, but I've no way of knowing that one way or another. I wouldn't have thought though that my opinion, even if it does come accross as disloyal, fickle, or knee-jerky to some would have no effect on the players, the manager or anyone else for that matter.

Sorry though it is so annoying to some

It might be a bit early to call the title challange over Mick. We are only 7 points behind (if we win our GIH).

If we draw against Pompey however I think I would be resigning myself to a top four spot. Thats how close I think we are to you being right........ one bad result :down:

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:07 am

s@int wrote:If we draw against Pompey however I think I would be resigning myself to a top four spot. Thats how close I think we are to you being right........ one bad result

Yeah I said in the thread earlier on, we are 16/1 now and failure to beat Portsmouth (which I don't think will happen BTW as our two best players won't be on the bench this time around) would see us go 66's.

The problem is of course that when you are behind three teams as we now are, even a couple of wins doesn't make that much difference. I suppose there is a chance that Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea could all draw two games apiece in the same period, but it's a bit of a long shot to be honest.

The simple fact is that the best teams have very few "blips" and off-weeks. Our problem is that all the other three have had one already, and each time we haven't really managed to capitalise. Man Utd started very poorly, but our derailment at Portsmouth and subsequent total lack of form allowed them to recover. They lose at Bolton, while arsenal lose at Middlesboro? We lose at Reading. The difference is of course not that they've only lost a couple, because so have we. The difference is that when they don't lose, nine times out of ten they win. We've drawn too many and ultimately it's cost us.

I'm fairly sure I'm right on this, but there'll be no crowing from me should we lose again soon and it become an accepted fact. It's one of the reasons I advocated playing Babel. It's not about giving up on this season so much as getting ourselves ready to really have a launch next season. What better way, than to potentially discover a potent strike partner for Torres and to bed him in this season?

by **Owzat** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:03 pm

bigmick wrote:The difference is that when they don't lose, nine times out of ten they win. We've drawn too many and ultimately it's cost us.

Oddly enough Draws haven't been Rafa's problem in previous seasons, I think the most he's drawn in all competitions in any of the previous three seasons is twelve and we're well on the way to beating that already.

Also we tend to make hard work of very winnable games, especially at home recently, and simply can't seem to (consistently) win at some away grounds :-

Last Liverpool Away Win (Premiership only)

Newcastle - 24/11/2007
Everton - 20/10/2007
Wigan - 29/09/2007
Sunderland - 25/08/2007
Aston Villa - 11/08/2007

Reading - 07/04/2007
West Ham - 30/01/2007
Tottenham - 30/12/2006

Portsmouth - 07/05/2006
Blackburn - 16/04/2006
Man City - 26/11/2005

Fulham - 16/10/2004

Birmingham - 08/05/2004
Man Utd - 24/04/2004
Chelsea - 07/01/2004

Bolton - 14/09/2002

Middlesboro - 16/03/2002
Derby - 01/12/2001

Arsenal - 13/02/2000

These are informational, it's hard to draw solid conclusions since teams weren't always Premiership sides and the last win might be a run of five in a row or first since our last league title. T'is interesting though.

by **mart** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:12 pm

JoeTerp wrote:I am starting to like Stevie more on the right, especially with Alonso coming back and it can be argued that Yossi is now on the downswing of form after peaking and still no pennant back, even so this might be as strong as we can get right now with the current set up:

Reina
Arbeloa Carra Agger Aurelio
Mascherano Alonso
Gerrard Kewell
Babel
Torres
Subs: Itandje, Finnan/Riise, Lucas, Yossi, Crouch/Kuyt

I like how I could see anyone on the left making a deep run in and sending in a cross and Kewell and Babel switching it up and back again before the defense knew what hit 'em. Those Three in midfield can boss anybody around, and you could send Babel wide right and drop Stevie back a bit and Kewell more forward for a 4-3-3, because I think the jury is still out on how our most talented team could operate in that. I really wonder if thats what rafa has always had in mind because don't Babel, Voronin and Kuyt play wide in a 4-3-3 for their countries?

I'm pretty sure we will see a team more or less like that once alonso comes back. Alonso as a deep playmaker and Gerrard "on the right" in a free role like he has played before. Not that he really tends to stick out on the right even if he is there on the teamsheet.

by **mart** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:25 pm

stmichael wrote:The difference for me is that Wenger has learnt from his mistakes and Benitez has not. Arsenal have developed more of a cutting edge from the past few season where they used to over play & are no longer bullied by teams like Bolton and Everton. Infact everyone still goes on about their "beautiful football" but they're more direct now than they've ever been with Adebayor upfront. We are still falling short in games against the top 4 sides & are still slipping up at places like Reading.

Rafa, when it comes to the "continental" arena, Champions League and La Liga, is probably the best tactician around, in a different league to the likes of Fergie and Wenger. But when it comes to the Premiership, which requires you to be less sophisticated tactically, Rafa isn't prepared to adapt to the demands of the Premiership. He refuses to give in to the fact that the Premiership isn't going to adapt to his philosophy.

Morientes is a great player, wasn't suited to the Premiership, but did the business on his return to La Liga. That doesn't make him a bad player, just that his attributes are better suited to a different climate. Rafa is and will remain a great Manager, but in the environment that suits his attributes best, I don't think that is winning the Premiership.

Has Wenger really learned from his mistakes or is his team of youngsters just a year older and thougher? He has been allowed the freedom to fail while developing his team of young players. I dont think many clubs or managers will have the freedom to do what wenger has done. I think its got much more to do with the fact that they are a year older, more experienced and has been forced to up their game with the sale of Henry. Sometimes I wonder if selling Gerrard could be good for the Liverpool team too, as he is getting bigger than the club/team in the same way Henry was.

Morientes is a good player, but limited. I dont think its the climate/league that was the problem in liverpool but what players we got and how we play. Morientes is a boxplayer that lives on crosses from the wingers. He never got to do that in Liverpool, the way he did in Monaco and now in Valencia.

by **stmichael** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:14 pm

The last 4 games (Bolton at home, Reading & Marseille away and Man United at home) have highlighted the good, the bad and the ugly of Rafa Benitez for me. I love the bloke to bits, but just cannot see us competing for the title under his stewardship.
I think therein lies the problem.

Rafa against Bolton and Marseille knew that by attacking those two teams we would be far too strong for them. Against Reading we just were sh#te, end of. No team are error free as Arsenal showed against Boro and Man Utd against Bolton.

Against Man Utd we showed them far too much respect and regardless of the opposition when we are at Anfield we should be attacking teams not being too concerned about losing.

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:45 am

stmichael wrote:I love the bloke to bits, but just cannot see us competing for the title under his stewardship.

It's a controversial statement St Mike. Are you advocating a change of management or do you think given a bit more time, Rafa will eventually deliver the Premeirship?

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:51 am

bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:I love the bloke to bits, but just cannot see us competing for the title under his stewardship.

It's a controversial statement St Mike. Are you advocating a change of management or do you think given a bit more time, Rafa will eventually deliver the Premeirship?

i agree with stmike on this one, i think we have had good enough players to win the title but rafas refusal to play them at various times or out of position has cost him, his desire to concentrate on future games rather than the next game has cost us, his persistance with poor players (I know some people wills say he ships them out, but if he does this please tell me why momo and especially kuyt are still getting games), all in all i hope he proves me wrong as i have said many times the club comes first for me and if he proves me wrong then thats great, i just cant see it

by **stmichael** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:28 pm

bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:I love the bloke to bits, but just cannot see us competing for the title under his stewardship.

It's a controversial statement St Mike. Are you advocating a change of management or do you think given a bit more time, Rafa will eventually deliver the Premeirship?

I think Peewee has pretty much summed it up in his post above Mick, it is not about changing the manager, and would people stop saying that. It is about one of the best managers in Europe changing his mentality a little bit to adapt to the league he fighting to win. Barring Chelsea's ridiculous money it is Arsenal and United that have won the league these past 10 years and when you look at their attacking philosophy it is reasonable to suggest that it may not always be personnel that we lack. In my opinion, we look a lot better team when we don't worry about the opposition. Some of the football we played between the draw at Blackburn and the defeat at Reading was excellent and we got some great results as well. Here, Rafa didn't over-think things too much; we (mostly) played a settled 4-4-2 formation with the best available personnel for the job, with a few changes here and there. The Reading game hit me like a bolt from the blue because we played a formation that we hadn't played all season with people who just weren't suited to it and probably deserved to lose. The other title challengers don't change their system to accommodate playing lesser teams so I don't see why we should. Obviously you should make the odd tactical tweak here and there but nothing too drastic should be done in these games, especially when chances are, they'll be the ones ringing the changes to stifle us.

I said at he start of the season that I thought we'd challenge as we had made significant improvements to our squad in an attacking sense. To say that we'd win it though would have been a really bold statement to make. United would always be the benchmark, Chelsea have a tremendous squad and an open chequebook and Arsenal have significantly overachieved in my eyes so far.

What I will say though is that this is still only the first season that Rafa has been able to go out and spend significant money (£20m+) on a single player, which is the type of calibre of player we're going to need in greater numbers if we really want to compete. You have to consider that despite our financial outlay, on Sunday, Rooney and Ferdinand cost more between them than our entire starting eleven. That's what we are up against.

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:34 pm

stmichael wrote:You have to consider that despite our financial outlay, on Sunday, Rooney and Ferdinand cost more between them than our entire starting eleven. That's what we are up against.

Well it's certainly fair to say that Manchester United have spent a lot more than us over the years, but this statement is probably a bit over the top Mike to be honest. Only the fact that Carragher and particularly Gerrard have come through the ranks makes the comparison even possible, while equally if and when we sign Masherano the cost of our team would be significantly higher.

This stance though is a fair enough one, and as the season goes on will probably become the new "rotation" in that it polarises the forum somewhat. On the one hand, there will be those who think that feel that given the fact that Rafa has only had one season where he has truly been able to sign "bigger" players, he deserves more time. Whereas you'll have some who will think that he doesn't, and advocate a change. A lot will depend on how we go to the end of the season obviously.

by **JoeTerp** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:12 pm

One thing that I would like to add as a POSSIBLE point that could go in Rafa's favor for the "at least one more year brigade" is the fact that he certainly is not going to make the team worse, and I have a very strong feeling that even if he were to be let go at the end of May 2009 that the team would be inherited in better hands than it is now. This is just saying that if he is sacked, there is a big risk with whoever comes in and at least you pretty much know that with Rafa, we almost certainly are not going to go backwards.

by **johnymarcu** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:12 am

Reina

Arbeloa Hyppia Carragher RIise

Xavi Alonso Mascherano

Gerrard

Kuyt Torres Babel

Liverpool FC Forum

Rafa. - What i'd do if i was him.

Who is online